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Dudeface wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.

But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?

Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.

It's not a conspiracy at all and you just explained why they made this codex...it certainly isn't an improvement on..well, anything in the rules. It's certainly not a competitive army. It's just a cash grab. And we know this because, as you said, "it's GW's stated existential purpose is to sell miniatures".

And what's worse? How many new models did we get? Just chonky boy. Everything else is just existing models that they can now sell outside of their original larger boxes.

OK so this is a cash grab to sell miniatures, yet it removes most of the marine range from deathwatch, has rules that as you note are not very attractive and the new model is rubbish.

So whilst you're off your rocker, explain to me how any of that is anything other than raw incompetence, rather than a "cash grab" which is putting people off... spending cash.

Because..to play this as an army you need to buy new minis rather than just fold in some of the space marine units you probably already have.

The $ part makes sense, it's the rules part that is so disastrous. They should have made a few of these units so good you couldn't live without them. Instead, you are forced with a choice....buy new minis that are crap I. The game or don't play the army at all. The rules boys did a great job of screwing over the $ plans IMO because the rules are so horrendously bad.

Or the rules team is some combination of any of the following:

1) Not good at their jobs
2) Dealing with unreasonable mandates from on high
3) Not given enough information or time to get it done well

 JNAProductions wrote:
Or the rules team is some combination of any of the following:

1) Not good at their jobs
2) Dealing with unreasonable mandates from on high
3) Not given enough information or time to get it done well

Good post. I believe it's mostly 2 and 3.

In terms of all the dissatisfaction, it's valid for sure. But it's not true that the post-dex environment is worse for Agents in general- before this dex, we couldn't field Agents as detachments at all.

For Deathwatch? Yes, they were better before this dex... But I think that's a separate issue.

I still think that some units could very well have carried over into Inquisition (either generic, or Deathwatch specific).

A Land Raider with either Inquisition, or deathwatch key wording would have been nice.

Terminators, bike, and Jump Packs for all those that built them for the last 3 editions. Even if they were all vanilla-like in rules.

Once I have the dex in hand, I'll be putting together a concise set of house rules. Adding <Ordo> to the generic Inquisitor, Astartes to DW units, Dedicated Transport to the Blackstar; I will be adding Land Raiders for Dedicated Transport of Ordo Malleus and Xenos; I will add the Repressor as a Dedicated Transport for Hereticus and Arbites, and I will add the Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport for Navis Imperialis (or whatever their keyword is).

That might be enough, but the Hench Unit may need tweaking.

On a Side Note: Damn I hate how generic the new name Inquisitorial Agents sounds- so damned confusing given the faction name also includes the word Agent.

I'll likely build on the Crusade Rules too, but that will mostly be done by linking missions with the threats named in the table, so it might just be repurposing existing rules.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Or the rules team is some combination of any of the following:

1) Not good at their jobs
2) Dealing with unreasonable mandates from on high
3) Not given enough information or time to get it done well

Good post. I believe it's mostly 2 and 3.

In terms of all the dissatisfaction, it's valid for sure. But it's not true that the post-dex environment is worse for Agents in general- before this dex, we couldn't field Agents as detachments at all.

For Deathwatch? Yes, they were better before this dex... But I think that's a separate issue.

The A Team/B Team codex quality this edition has been pretty insane. I'm not sure if its a matter of a single rules team that only has time for one and phones in the other, or two teams with wildly different design skills or methodologies, but this has been one of the most stark "haves/have nots" editions I've experienced.

Dudeface wrote:

OK so this is a cash grab to sell miniatures, yet it removes most of the marine range from deathwatch, has rules that as you note are not very attractive and the new model is rubbish.

So whilst you're off your rocker, explain to me how any of that is anything other than raw incompetence, rather than a "cash grab" which is putting people off... spending cash.

It's a cash grab in the sense that it's a low-effort "Codex" that could very easily have been a free PDF instead of a full-priced book. There's a very small number of units in the book and barely any effort put into the units that are there. In this case it seems GW have messed up badly enough that it won't be as profitable a book as they would like, but that doesn't make it any less a cash grab - just a more incompetent one than GW would have preferred.

 LunarSol wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Or the rules team is some combination of any of the following:

1) Not good at their jobs
2) Dealing with unreasonable mandates from on high
3) Not given enough information or time to get it done well

Good post. I believe it's mostly 2 and 3.

In terms of all the dissatisfaction, it's valid for sure. But it's not true that the post-dex environment is worse for Agents in general- before this dex, we couldn't field Agents as detachments at all.

For Deathwatch? Yes, they were better before this dex... But I think that's a separate issue.

The A Team/B Team codex quality this edition has been pretty insane. I'm not sure if its a matter of a single rules team that only has time for one and phones in the other, or two teams with wildly different design skills or methodologies, but this has been one of the most stark "haves/have nots" editions I've experienced.

Yeah, just the difference between Dark Angels and Blood Angels is so transparent. The individual nerfs applied to the DA codex from the Index (some since corrected, but not all) contrasts strongly with some of the bonkers abilities apparent in the new BA dex.

 bullyboy wrote:

Yeah, just the difference between Dark Angels and Blood Angels is so transparent. The individual nerfs applied to the DA codex from the Index (some since corrected, but not all) contrasts strongly with some of the bonkers abilities apparent in the new BA dex.

It's literally been a pair hit/miss each release wave:

A: Marines
B: Tyranids

A: Necrons
B: Mechanicus/Dark Angels

A: Orks
B: Custodes

A: Chaos
B: Tau

A: Sisters
B: Genestealers

A: Blood Angels
B: Agents

Some of these have been fixed since with points or errata, but on launch its been pretty clear there's a book that's dramatically better than the other.

For what it's worth, the combat patrol rules team have definitely had their weetabix.

If you play combat patrol, the Inquisitor's Hand is a bloody awesome force, with a 'faction ability' to hand one arbites unit LETHAL HITS and PRECISION for the turn,every turn, and the two ten strong squads able to patrol squad down to five men to give you four independent BATTLELINE units at the start of any patrol mission where you need it.

Oh, and the priest? Her unique enhancement gives the entire agents team a 4+ invulnerable save AND -1to hit AND -1 to wound vs ANY incoming attack.

locarno24 wrote:
For what it's worth, the combat patrol rules team have definitely had their weetabix.

If you play combat patrol, the Inquisitor's Hand is a bloody awesome force, with a 'faction ability' to hand one arbites unit LETHAL HITS and PRECISION for the turn,every turn, and the two ten strong squads able to patrol squad down to five men to give you four independent BATTLELINE units at the start of any patrol mission where you need it.

Oh, and the priest? Her unique enhancement gives the entire agents team a 4+ invulnerable save AND -1to hit AND -1 to wound vs ANY incoming attack.

That sounds brutally overpowered.
I don't know tons about combat patrol, so if it's not, good. But just on surface-level look... Damn.

 JNAProductions wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
For what it's worth, the combat patrol rules team have definitely had their weetabix.

If you play combat patrol, the Inquisitor's Hand is a bloody awesome force, with a 'faction ability' to hand one arbites unit LETHAL HITS and PRECISION for the turn,every turn, and the two ten strong squads able to patrol squad down to five men to give you four independent BATTLELINE units at the start of any patrol mission where you need it.

Oh, and the priest? Her unique enhancement gives the entire agents team a 4+ invulnerable save AND -1to hit AND -1 to wound vs ANY incoming attack.

That sounds brutally overpowered.
I don't know tons about combat patrol, so if it's not, good. But just on surface-level look... Damn.

It's just her unit, so her and the six agents. Who, by the way, don't get the eviscerator in Combat Patrol.

Okay, just one unit seems more reasonable.
Powerful, but since the individual unit isn't as powerful as something like a Terminator blob... Yee.

Slipspace wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

OK so this is a cash grab to sell miniatures, yet it removes most of the marine range from deathwatch, has rules that as you note are not very attractive and the new model is rubbish.

So whilst you're off your rocker, explain to me how any of that is anything other than raw incompetence, rather than a "cash grab" which is putting people off... spending cash.

It's a cash grab in the sense that it's a low-effort "Codex" that could very easily have been a free PDF instead of a full-priced book. There's a very small number of units in the book and barely any effort put into the units that are there. In this case it seems GW have messed up badly enough that it won't be as profitable a book as they would like, but that doesn't make it any less a cash grab - just a more incompetent one than GW would have preferred.

I can understand that perspective, it's an attempt at a cash grab so comprehensively poorly done that it discourages spending and likely loses money that was on the table.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, just one unit seems more reasonable.
Powerful, but since the individual unit isn't as powerful as something like a Terminator blob... Yee.

That's one thing gw have consistently been good at balancing combat patrol compared to the full game. Because the combat patrol lists are 'fixed' they can take what would be pretty extreme steps in 'normal' 40k to balance the box contents.

So where a box doesn't include much antitank (like Vigil Force Alphion, which is basically an intercessors squad and three aggressors) and might face a rampaging deff dread (there's one in Gorfang's Gitstompas), the balance is the unique stratagem and enhancements that are often waaaaay nastier than their 40k counterparts.

In this example, 'Special Issue Ammunition' giving a hideous ANTI-VEHICLE 5+ and MELTA 2 to the bolt rifles and grenade launchers.

Less powerful patrols get some VERY shiny toys to make up the numbers.

That's good to hear. I'm not particularly interested in Combat Patrol, but good on GW for doing it right for those who are!

It's a lot more appealing when you have the time, budget and attention constraints of small humans. Especially since you dont need the codex.

:-)

I mean ordo hereticus only being able to take 3 BSS squads is stupid and not thought out

And yes having an ordo faction ability would have made sense but it isn't required and if the army is good enough it does not need a faction ability and in some ways cheaper units does that

But I am quite happy with the Navy detatchment and I'm actually thinking of running it competitively in a couple of months time.

U02dah4 wrote:
I mean ordo hereticus only being able to take 3 BSS squads is stupid and not thought out

And yes having an ordo faction ability would have made sense but it isn't required and if the army is good enough it does not need a faction ability and in some ways cheaper units does that

But I am quite happy with the Navy detatchment and I'm actually thinking of running it competitively in a couple of months time.

You are mistaken: when Ordo Hereticus wants more than 3 units of Sisters, they just join a sisters army as an Assigned Agent. Then not only do they get as many Sisters as they want, those Sisters can also be more than BSS, and can use AoF. The only downside is that the Inquisitor won't benefit from any of their detachment rules. Requisitioned BSS are not in the dex for people who want lots of Sisters- they are there so that an Inquisitor can bring them into another Imperial army, like Guard, Custodes, Admech or Marines. Or Knights, for that matter.

The same is true for GK.

It isn't true for Deathwatch when you want them to attach to a Space Marine army to mimic old Deathwatch, because the missing Astartes Keyword prevents them from using detachment abilities which, fluffwise, they should be able to use.

I meant in the ordo hereticus detatchment itself it makes the detatchment so you can't really even build to it you can build to the dw one just by takeing 1200 points of veterans

If you're leaning as hard into sisters as you can, 1380 points gets you six immolators, each carrying 5 sisters and either an Inquisitor or a Priest.

For the other 620 points, you want Arbites and Agents, and if you want to go full mobile, you can mount them in Rhinos and Chimerae too.

My starting point is this:

Inquisitor 55
Small IA 50
Chimera 70

BSS 100
Immolator 100
Immolator 100

That's 475, so if you field it in a Hereticus Detachment, add 25 points in enhancements; if you send it as an Assigned Agent force, the BSS and Immo each go up by 15, putting you at 505.

There is an army for leaning that heavily into SoB. It is call Adepta Sororitas.

 PenitentJake wrote:
That's 475, so if you field it in a Hereticus Detachment, add 25 points in enhancements; if you send it as an Assigned Agent force, the BSS and Immo each go up by 15, putting you at 505.

Wouldn't you end up at 520? 475 + (3*15)

 Dysartes wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
That's 475, so if you field it in a Hereticus Detachment, add 25 points in enhancements; if you send it as an Assigned Agent force, the BSS and Immo each go up by 15, putting you at 505.

Wouldn't you end up at 520? 475 + (3*15)

Doh!

Yeah, forgot the 2nd immo- still remembering the days of 1 unit = one transport.

So if I wanted to keep it as close to 500 as I could, it doesn't work so well.

They should atleast be battle line in hereticus and grey knights battle line in their detatchment

I’m totally fine with just 3 sisters squads in the Hereticus detachment, far less so with them excluding Arco Flagellants (which we were first exposed to in the game Inquisitor), and penitent engines. Then with arbites, some agents, I think you have a decent force.
Still think there should have been one standard guard type squad to choose from (instead of arbites or navy).

 bullyboy wrote:
I’m totally fine with just 3 sisters squads in the Hereticus detachment, far less so with them excluding Arco Flagellants (which we were first exposed to in the game Inquisitor), and penitent engines. Then with arbites, some agents, I think you have a decent force.
Still think there should have been one standard guard type squad to choose from (instead of arbites or navy).

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers* would be ideal, but GW has let that idea fade since 5th edition.

*If they got a new kit, would probably be Veritoquestor Scions or something these days.

 PenitentJake wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I mean ordo hereticus only being able to take 3 BSS squads is stupid and not thought out

And yes having an ordo faction ability would have made sense but it isn't required and if the army is good enough it does not need a faction ability and in some ways cheaper units does that

But I am quite happy with the Navy detatchment and I'm actually thinking of running it competitively in a couple of months time.

You are mistaken: when Ordo Hereticus wants more than 3 units of Sisters, they just join a sisters army as an Assigned Agent. Then not only do they get as many Sisters as they want, those Sisters can also be more than BSS, and can use AoF. The only downside is that the Inquisitor won't benefit from any of their detachment rules. Requisitioned BSS are not in the dex for people who want lots of Sisters- they are there so that an Inquisitor can bring them into another Imperial army, like Guard, Custodes, Admech or Marines. Or Knights, for that matter.

The same is true for GK.

It isn't true for Deathwatch when you want them to attach to a Space Marine army to mimic old Deathwatch, because the missing Astartes Keyword prevents them from using detachment abilities which, fluffwise, they should be able to use.

This reminds me that they didn't delete the Sisters Codex but they did delete the Deathwatch codex.

Fluff-wise I think it's a giant step back that an Inquisitor can't take as much of whatever they want. The Inquisitor should be able to lead his own army of requisitioned troops.

Do you really want Custodian Guard supported by Leman Russes, for example?

 ender502 wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I mean ordo hereticus only being able to take 3 BSS squads is stupid and not thought out

And yes having an ordo faction ability would have made sense but it isn't required and if the army is good enough it does not need a faction ability and in some ways cheaper units does that

But I am quite happy with the Navy detatchment and I'm actually thinking of running it competitively in a couple of months time.

You are mistaken: when Ordo Hereticus wants more than 3 units of Sisters, they just join a sisters army as an Assigned Agent. Then not only do they get as many Sisters as they want, those Sisters can also be more than BSS, and can use AoF. The only downside is that the Inquisitor won't benefit from any of their detachment rules. Requisitioned BSS are not in the dex for people who want lots of Sisters- they are there so that an Inquisitor can bring them into another Imperial army, like Guard, Custodes, Admech or Marines. Or Knights, for that matter.

The same is true for GK.

It isn't true for Deathwatch when you want them to attach to a Space Marine army to mimic old Deathwatch, because the missing Astartes Keyword prevents them from using detachment abilities which, fluffwise, they should be able to use.

This reminds me that they didn't delete the Sisters Codex but they did delete the Deathwatch codex.

Fluff-wise I think it's a giant step back that an Inquisitor can't take as much of whatever they want. The Inquisitor should be able to lead his own army of requisitioned troops.

if you want to run a full army of Sisters, you can use Sisters and then add an inquisitor from the Agents book; for the flavor you want, that should be good, unless you want a full Imperium soup list, in which case that's just not what this edition is doing