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 Haighus wrote:
It took them 20 years to build an entire Chapter. Quite impressive really.

20 years to get to ~40% strength, going by that quote - though no figure is given for how many outsiders were brought in at the start.

If anything I'd say the exact opposite, the numbers for 40k can be defended but 30k can't be. Both have approximately a single Space Marine for every planet in the Imperium. But in 40k you can at least say that the Space Marines are only a tiny fraction of the Imperium's real military power, but just happen to be the focus of most novels and scenarios. In 30k they are explicitly the central axis upon which the entire Imperial military revolves and they will unilaterally determine the outcome of the war.

Delta Force has fewer members than there are cities in the United States. That isn't unrealistic because they're a tiny elite group that does specific important missions. You can write a story about Delta Force doing some secret raid or whatever and it's fine.

Now imagine that my story is about how America is engulfed in a massive civil war which threatens to destroy the country, but the only people who really matter are members of Delta Force. Half the members of Delta Force are fighting the other half and whichever wins will surely rule America. Who controls all of Ohio will be determined by one of the Delta Force squad-leaders dueling another squad-leader with a submachine gun. That actually is absurd, but those are the numbers 30k uses.

Just remember the war with all the Space Marines was just a side battle to the real war in the Webway after Magnus up everything.

Any conflict where you lose 90% of the Legio Custodes in less than 5 years, is a serious war, and The Emperor was more worried about Daemons taking Terra than Horus.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
If anything I'd say the exact opposite, the numbers for 40k can be defended but 30k can't be. Both have approximately a single Space Marine for every planet in the Imperium. But in 40k you can at least say that the Space Marines are only a tiny fraction of the Imperium's real military power, but just happen to be the focus of most novels and scenarios. In 30k they are explicitly the central axis upon which the entire Imperial military revolves and they will unilaterally determine the outcome of the war.

Delta Force has fewer members than there are cities in the United States. That isn't unrealistic because they're a tiny elite group that does specific important missions. You can write a story about Delta Force doing some secret raid or whatever and it's fine.

Now imagine that my story is about how America is engulfed in a massive civil war which threatens to destroy the country, but the only people who really matter are members of Delta Force. Half the members of Delta Force are fighting the other half and whichever wins will surely rule America. Who controls all of Ohio will be determined by one of the Delta Force squad-leaders dueling another squad-leader with a submachine gun. That actually is absurd, but those are the numbers 30k uses.

I actually dont find this analogy all that absurd - youve largely described the modern American way of war. Regular army/marine units have to some extent become primarily garrison troops, blocking forces, supporting fires, and second-line maneuver elements. Much of the US armed forces offensive capability is in fact delivered by spec ops units like Delta, SEALs, etc. providing primary thusts while regular/line units fill in behind and provide sustained mass.

For counter insurgency maybe. The last fully fledged mechanised war for the USA was Iraq. Special forces undertook important shaping operations, but the heavy lifting was done by the mechanised and armoured brigades supported by air supremacy.

Afghanistan and the later phases of Iraq had the US/coalition forces nominally as invited guests of the government.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I actually dont find this analogy all that absurd - youve largely described the modern American way of war. Regular army/marine units have to some extent become primarily garrison troops, blocking forces, supporting fires, and second-line maneuver elements. Much of the US armed forces offensive capability is in fact delivered by spec ops units like Delta, SEALs, etc. providing primary thusts while regular/line units fill in behind and provide sustained mass.

I guess to some extent it does depend on the structure of the planetary governments; if it's the sort of hyper-feudal system where most people are completely uninvolved then a small number of Space Marines dropping in to the governor's palace and a few major spaceports may be all it takes to "conquer" a planet (at the galactic level). But if you're dealing with, say, a planet of 10 billion people riddled with decentralized chaos cults there's no possible way 1,000 or even 100,000 Space Marines are going to do much to get rid of them. Even if each Space Marine was completely invincible it's just too many people over too large an area for that many of them to matter.

Space Marines need some sort of very centralized enemy or special McGuffin to go after to be "game changers". I think this actually works well in 40k because other parts of the Imperium - Guard, Navy, Inquisition, Arbites, PDFs, etc - are also fairly well fleshed-out and you can assume they're doing all the jobs that Space Marines can't. But in 30k it seems like Space Marines are supposed to do everything and everyone else is superfluous. Imperial Fists are garrisoning fortresses. Iron Warriors are operating artillery for sieges. Ultramarines are passing new tax legislation. Night Lords are trying to end all crime like evil Batman.That sort of thing is of a different scale from fast pin-point strikes on high-value targets and it doesn't mesh with the 1-per-planet ratio. Even at 1,000-per-planet it would feel like a stretch to me.

I think the USMC is a better comparison than tier 3 operatives like SEAL team 6. The latter have a limited range of capabilities, because they are still ultimately highly-mobile infantry and nothing else, whereas the former include organic artillery and armoured support. In terms of proportion of numbers, yes, but not in role.

A Marine force is small, but it can do any role an equivalent Guard or Army force could do. It can garrison, it can besiege, it can conduct mobile armoured assaults, it can do airdrops, it can do boarding actions. The issue is that the low numbers mean they are not efficient in most of those roles by themselves and only function well as a stiffening force in key parts of a wider battle or doing the things other forces are bad at (airdrops and boarding assaults where exceptional mobility and exceptional concentration of force are helpful). This is comparable to the USMC, which can be used as a normal army corps and will likely perform better than a typical army corps, but it isn't enough to be an entire army for a ground campaign and would get quickly swamped if used alone against a peer enemy. It exists mainly because it is great at littoral combat operations, and that is what it is most efficiently used for.

I'm not sure you can compare 40k military tactics to modern warfare.

You have a ton of lore that drops one or two guys (custodes vs a ship full of black legionnaires, an assassin vs a small city) that are able to wreak havoc unabated.

It's like comparing Chuck Norris in his own movies vs. the nameless guys who line up to die.

Not sure an assassin has killed an entire city single handed before.

They're pretty consistent in being, well, lone operatives for head taker missions.

Like an Eversor might kill a command bunker full of troops but not a city.

 Gert wrote:
Not sure an assassin has killed an entire city single handed before.

They're pretty consistent in being, well, lone operatives for head taker missions.

Like an Eversor might kill a command bunker full of troops but not a city.

Plus there is a good chance they'll fail or die completing that mission too, if the enemy is somewhat capable.

I I think I misspoke. I remember an Eversor carving through a city to get to his target.

But that doesn't compare to Chris Wraighr's offscreen murder spree of Custode v. A ship of Chaos Marines.


(The omnissiah has decided that English is not the language I need to write in anymore.. i think i need to clear out the autocorrect..)

Custodes being far far superior to Astartes isn't nuts though.

They're essentially pieces of art in terms of bio-alchemy, the peak of what humanity can achieve with science and killing Astartes is also something that they're pretty good at.

Heresy is fun to read about but I think 40k is by far the better setting. My suspension of disbelief in 30k is constantly torpedo'd by the retcon to make the Primarchs all massive giants. Just imagining them trying to navigate life as these massively outsized freaks is hilarious. Such a dumb decision.

 Da Boss wrote:
Heresy is fun to read about but I think 40k is by far the better setting. My suspension of disbelief in 30k is constantly torpedo'd by the retcon to make the Primarchs all massive giants. Just imagining them trying to navigate life as these massively outsized freaks is hilarious. Such a dumb decision.

Anyone caught snickering at the sight of a primarch crawling by on all fours while discussing matters of state will be turned into a servitor

 Da Boss wrote:
Heresy is fun to read about but I think 40k is by far the better setting. My suspension of disbelief in 30k is constantly torpedo'd by the retcon to make the Primarchs all massive giants. Just imagining them trying to navigate life as these massively outsized freaks is hilarious. Such a dumb decision.

The Imperium is famed for its huge cathedrals and grand over-sized gothic architecture

It works fine for me. When Marines are already supersized it’s all just a question of degree.

 Snord wrote:
It works fine for me. When Marines are already supersized it’s all just a question of degree.

Eh...
That's like saying the Maus was fine because the King Tiger was already supersized compared to most tanks. I understand why people can accept a 7ft superhuman but struggle with a 12+ft tall one.

The Imperium has loads of cathedrals and stuff, but not the worlds they're conquering in the Great Crusade.

I think it's really funny to imagine the Khan running in front of his horsemen, because there wouldn't be a horse big enough to hold him. Or Night Haunter "stealthily" hiding behind a small building.

It's especially funny because the original background is clearly written with them being normal human sized, so there's all these incongruous scenes.

I actually enjoy it as comedy but it doesn't help me take the Heresy seriously as a setting.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I I think I misspoke. I remember an Eversor carving through a city to get to his target.

 Gert wrote:
Not sure an assassin has killed an entire city single handed before.

They're pretty consistent in being, well, lone operatives for head taker missions.

Like an Eversor might kill a command bunker full of troops but not a city.

Erversors are specifically intended to wipe out whole command heirarchies or families, and can be just broadly operating terror agents. From Lexicanum referencing some short story I think:

"When [Erversor]Ganimus landed upon the Hive World, he infiltrated its Primus Hive and began laying waste to anyone he came across, including nearly destroying an entire Regiment of troops. Ganimus finally reached Blumolotv's office at the top of the Hive and killed the traitorous Planetary Governor, even as he pleaded he was loyal to the Emperor.

So like, not killing a "whole city" but "killing through" a hive. More than a bunker.

 Haighus wrote:

Eh...
That's like saying the Maus was fine because the King Tiger was already supersized compared to most tanks. I understand why people can accept a 7ft superhuman but struggle with a 12+ft tall one.

That’s an entirely arbitrary and artificial comparison. Firstly, it’s a fantasy game, not history - where you draw the line on what is ‘credible’ is subjective. Fantasy stories and legends are full of giant warriors who tower over other men. And even taking your comparison at face value, plenty of WW2 gamers are fine with fielding a Maus with their other Panzers.

Thank you Insectim7, sometimes my 4 mb memory gets a little fragmented

Sure, if you think Marines and a handful of NPC factions (not being hyperbolic, considering the non-Marine armies' state) being the norm makes more sense.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Sure, if you think Marines and a handful of NPC factions (not being hyperbolic, considering the non-Marine armies' state) being the norm makes more sense.

But if we mean 'make sense' as in suspension of disbelief, then reducing the scope of the universe actually does do that. It makes more sense that my guys are chainsaw wielding space knights, if they are fighting other chainsaw wielding space knights.

Throw in fishmen with plasma rifles, suddenly my chainsaw bois look a bit silly.

 Cap'n Facebeard wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Sure, if you think Marines and a handful of NPC factions (not being hyperbolic, considering the non-Marine armies' state) being the norm makes more sense.

But if we mean 'make sense' as in suspension of disbelief, then reducing the scope of the universe actually does do that. It makes more sense that my guys are chainsaw wielding space knights, if they are fighting other chainsaw wielding space knights.

Throw in fishmen with plasma rifles, suddenly my chainsaw bois look a bit silly.

Eh, the knights are wearing armour good enough to reach the fishmen despite the plasma rifles.

They got guns, too, which matters a whole lot

 Bobthehero wrote:
They got guns, too, which matters a whole lot

Sure, which the fishmen armour is good enough to resist too, so then your shocktroops are stuck in a prolonged firefight. Or they can push into the assault and force the fishmen off the objective quicker. They'll use guns during the assault too but melee is good for taking out armoured opponents.

Effective projectile weapons have existed since prehistory but hand-to-hand only fell out of use in really the last 80 years with a combination of ineffective personal protection against firearms and automatic firearms.

If their armor can protect them from bolt rounds, it will protect them from chainswords

 Bobthehero wrote:
If their armor can protect them from bolt rounds, it will protect them from chainswords

Armour isn't perfect. In order for the wearer to be able to move, there are always weak points that are vulnerable. These are vulnerable at range too, but you have to be very close to target these weak points deliberately. At any other range, it becomes a question of numbers with increasing quantities of projectiles fired in order to score a hit on a weakpoint as range increases. However, if you are close enough to reliably point the gun at a weak spot, you are close enough for your armoured opponent to do something about it- melee. At which point melee weapons are tools to essentially overpower your opponent until you can reliably target weakspots enough to defeat them. Bear in mind that in melee, weapons can be used to offend as well as defend, whereas shots from a firearm can only offend.

The equipment of a marine, bolter and chainsword are explicitly anti Ork weapons.

Because the majority of what they would face when they went out into the galaxy was orks.

If you think marine on marine is more 'realsitic' then they should all be armed with explicitly anti marine weapons, which they aren't.

Even in 30k, marines were realistically designed to fight aliens, not each other.

 Hellebore wrote:
The equipment of a marine, bolter and chainsword are explicitly anti Ork weapons.

Because the majority of what they would face when they went out into the galaxy was orks.

If you think marine on marine is more 'realsitic' then they should all be armed with explicitly anti marine weapons, which they aren't.

Even in 30k, marines were realistically designed to fight aliens, not each other.

Ding, ding, ding ding. Winner Winner chicken dinner. Marines weren't meant to fight each other. They were meant to fight Xenos and rogue human factions. Bolters and chainswords suck against power armour. There's a reason.