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Didn't the original Basilisk have its range measured in feet where in theory you could deploy it from the other side of the room to fire.

TO THE SECOND EDITON CODEXES!

*Batman noises*

Short range 0”-20”, long range 20”-150”

So yes. 14 and a bit feet.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TO THE SECOND EDITON CODEXES!

*Batman noises*

Short range 0”-20”, long range 20”-150”

So yes. 14 and a bit feet.

^12.5 you mean, I'm sure.

I think in 3rd/4th ed it was still 120" or 180" or something, too. It was the go-to cannon for the Vehicle Design rules for its range, and the fact that if you made it "Mega" it bevame S10 AP2, which was almost as good as it got in those days.

12” to a foot….oh yeah!

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

and this is without getting into the ways that the T'au are actually asian; that is, everyone focuses on the robots as being Japanese, but the actual society of the T'au is far more Indian than anything else. i suspect something like that wouldn't be appealing in India, due to how controversial the caste system actually is (there's also just a lot of orientalism at play in their design, and asian people don't really appreciate racism)

(History Hat) Japan also had a very strong caste system through to the Meji Restoration which retained a lot of cultural power until the end of the war and still has impact today. It was a loose interpretation of China's confusion castes with Samurai replacing scholars at the top, followed by farmers, merchants and then untouchables (leather makers and suchwot). (/History Hat)

The Tau's 5 elements are also taken from Japanese philosophy. Not to mention they literally have katanas.

Of course the blue commie fishmen from space are not a one-to-one Space Japan like Warzone's Mishima (in the future we will all follow 20th century stereotypes of our nations!) but they're a lot of Japanese elements in there and no real Indian ones I can think of.

As for Orientalism and racism, yeah. Yeah. Um once you're into GW games you kind of have to accept some really stereotypical stuff especially for any culture outside of Europe (and the French and British don't make out too well either). It's like Judge Dredd, if it bugs you, there's plenty else out there.

In defense of the Chaos Spawn kit, it's got a TON of great bits for designing Spawn or swapping and adding nasty bits to your other chaos models. Back in 7th and 8th I often ran a few squads of them, and I managed to grab a Tide Of Spawn box off ebay. I combined them with some of the metal Spawn I already had to get variation. The metal Spawn model was nice, but you run a few of those and they get repeat-y real fast. Here's a sample of finished ones:



I also like how fast the plastic ones can look. The metal ones look pretty encubered, but the long legs of the plastics make it look like they could be very hard to get away from.

Nevermind

Those spawn are amazing, really gribbly. I especially like the insectoid one, looks like it came straight out of a horror movie. The newer chaos stuff looks a bit too clean/smoothe for my tastes.

Edit: on second look all of those would work in a horror movie

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Those spawn are amazing, really gribbly. I especially like the insectoid one, looks like it came straight out of a horror movie. The newer chaos stuff looks a bit too clean/smoothe for my tastes.

Edit: on second look all of those would work in a horror movie

Thanks!

Re: "cleanliness" of new models, I think I agree, although I would say that GW often paints things in a very clean way most of the time, which doesn't help. And honestly I don't think it helps some of the older models, like previously mentioned Mutilators. For the aesthetic foundation though, I agree. I definitely prefer the "stretched skin" look of the prior Oblitrators in opposition to the new ones. The new ones seem more cartooney to me.

GW aims for what I consider very clean, very easy to emulate paint schemes. Whilst there's a lot of skill that goes into them to look so clean; the underlaying principle is that its something that can be emulated fairly simply.

I think this really shows with things like Nurgle and other bio-monsters where a very different style of paining can really make the model appear very different.

The line between cartoony and gritty real can be just a function of colour and style choices as much as it is is sculpt design

I prefer that to the Rackham way. Rackham paintjobs were amazing, but involved more than a little detail not actually appearing on the model.

 Overread wrote:
GW aims for what I consider very clean, very easy to emulate paint schemes. Whilst there's a lot of skill that goes into them to look so clean; the underlaying principle is that its something that can be emulated fairly simply.

I think this really shows with things like Nurgle and other bio-monsters where a very different style of paining can really make the model appear very different.

The line between cartoony and gritty real can be just a function of colour and style choices as much as it is is sculpt design

While I can agree to that, sometimes the model itself really tries to lock you into cartoon-mode. The current Typhus model being a tragic example.

Even before the new reveal the Deredeo dread ranked pretty high on my list of ugly warhammer kits. Certainly the ugliest in 30K and among the dreads about as ugly as a redemptor. I like all other dreads.
Deredeo featured too many oversized guns even before Primaris made that a thing.

Personally I only like the old box dreads. Even the contemptor just looks out of place to me.

 Cap'n Facebeard wrote:
Personally I only like the old box dreads. Even the contemptor just looks out of place to me.

I like them, I just wish they had proper knees. Add knees to classic box dreads and I'm happy.

I'm waiting for the same model to turn up in both the best and worst threads.

stroller wrote:
I'm waiting for the same model to turn up in both the best and worst threads.

Predicting what that model will be is a good idea for another thread

Oh. A more specific 3rd Ed Dark Eldar one?

Mandrakes

A funky rule, where you deployed three models, and moved them as markers only (so your opponent couldn’t target or charge them), and only decided which one was the squad’s true location after.

Which sounds great. Except they couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag, and wore little to no armour.

So they’d play this great guessing game, be revealed, and be horribly murdered to death by anything greater than a slight breeze.

Can't forget the Magical Laser Cannon of Hank (or whatever it's called).

The astrolab thing is cool and fits but this thing commits the cardinal sin of looking really stupid.

Even worse, they made 3 Empire party wagons and any one of them could have been the Warwagon instead.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Then again, I have a permanent bee in my bonnet* about the general degribblification of Chaos, with far too few manky mutations in evidence. Except, perversely, on the Thousand Son Sorcerors who, as the benefit of the Rubric, are meant to be immune to the flesh change.

From Lexicanum:

Lexicanum wrote:It was noted by one of Ahriman's cabal, however, that while the Rubric cured the Legion of the Flesh Change, it did not grant immunity to mutation...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh. A more specific 3rd Ed Dark Eldar one?

Mandrakes

A funky rule, where you deployed three models, and moved them as markers only (so your opponent couldn’t target or charge them), and only decided which one was the squad’s true location after.

Which sounds great. Except they couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag, and wore little to no armour.

So they’d play this great guessing game, be revealed, and be horribly murdered to death by anything greater than a slight breeze.

Mandrakes had awesome models in 5th, but were let down in almost every edition by terrible rules.

In 5th, they had a 5++ and enjoyed Move Through Cover and Stealth, as well as Infiltrate. They also had an Assault 2 S4 AP4 gun that could cause pinning. So at a glance, they seemed like a decent advance unit that wanted to stick to cover.

The problem was that they had no grenades - so while they wanted to be in cover, they were hopeless at attacking enemies who were also in cover (as they'd get hit first, without the benefit of their cover save). They also had S4 but no actual melee weapons or other special rules to make use of it. Not only that, but they couldn't fire their guns until they'd killed an enemy to get a Pain Token - so melee was their only option. And the fact that they Infiltrated was actually a huge downside as it meant you couldn't attach a Haemonculus to them to get a Pain Token right away.

7th edition replaced the invulnerable save with Shrouded. So they were even tougher in cover . . . except that they still had no grenades and no melee weapons, and now they had no save whatsoever in melee. Their weapons could at least be fired from the get-go, but they'd traded Pinning for Soul Blaze, probably the least useful rule ever invented. Finally, while they might seem better in cover, this was in an edition rife with Torrent-Flamers, along with a myriad of other cover-ignoring weapons.

In 8th-9th their rules were actually okay. The biggest issue was that they were classed as 'mercenaries', and thus didn't benefit from any auras or detachment rules. Still, at least they didn't feel like a complete waste of points, so that was something. However, even here, they were generally taken only as objective-grabbers. A useful role, to be sure, but they never felt like the assassins they were supposed to be.

Then of course, we had Kheradruakh, the Decapitator, a unit that was widely believed to have the worst rules of any unit in 5th. At a glance, he looked like he might finally live up to the lore - a deadly assassin who could appear out of nowhere, right next to his target.

And then you read his rules a little more closely, and things quickly started to go downhill . . .
- Despite allegedly being a character assassin, his combat ability was mediocre at best. WS6+ was less than that of a standard Archon, and meant he'd be hitting most characters on 4s. His weapon was a Power Weapon, but with only 4 S5 attacks he wasn't particularly threatening. You really had to hope for a 6 to wound, which meant his sword would cause instant death. However, that assumed he got to strike first...
- Like normal Mandrakes in 5th, he had no grenades. So all his would-be target needed to do was stick to cover, and old Khera will find himself standing gormlessly around while his target punches him.
- Defence-wise, he was a Mandrake with 3 wounds. He did at least start with a Pain Token, but with T3 and no EW, all it took was a single S6 hit and he'd go down immediately.
- But worst of all was the fact that he couldn't actually charge on the turn you placed him. So you could place him right next to his target ("preferably with an evil chuckle", to quote the cringeworthy rule), and watch as he proceeds to . . . do absolutely nothing.
- You might wonder if you could skip his terrible deployment rule and use him to instead lead a Mandrake squad - giving them the benefit of his Pain Token. Alas, Kheradruakh lacked the Independent Character rule. So he couldn't join other units - Mandrakes or otherwise.

Kheradruakh really was a case study in how not to design a character. Alas, rather than learning such lessons, GW just deleted him from the game.


It's frustrating for me because I think Mandrakes are one of the most interesting units in terms of flavour and aesthetics. Yet they have been perpetually neglected - with rules that are mediocre at best, on top of losing their only character and having basically no interaction with anything else in the army.

I still have nightmares from the "You can't shoot me," marker mandrakes.


Nothing like having a bunch of guardsmen and waiting for some Dark Eldar to appear and wade into them.

Not fun for anyone... except for the Dark Eldar player.

Model wise it has to be the Sydonian Skatros. I've seen some gallant efforts to save it with a good paint job but ultimately all in vain.

Rules wise - Scourges. Deep striking jump packing heavy weapon carriers that paid all the points but couldn't shoot on the move, in an army packed with cheap and mobile alternatives carrying the same guns.

In terms of building... i've never seen a metal exorcist kit that wasn't bent out of shape, though the penitent engines were worse if you didn't have a pinning drill with their top heavy design and terrible terrible joints.

 vipoid wrote:
Then of course, we had Kheradruakh, the Decapitator, a unit that was widely believed to have the worst rules of any unit in 5th.

Decent statline, overshadowed by his own codex and crippled by being moved to the generic reserves rules.
Though not quite as bad as units like the space pope (aka shoot here to rout my army) or old repentia (who could be outfought in combat by their value in tau firewarriors).

Special shout-out to the gathering storm era Saint Celestine (who wasn't faithful and would therefore break the faith of any sisters unit she joined) and to a lesser degree the old Celestine who could de-faith the entire army if killed. Actually happened in a WD battle report.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Cap'n Facebeard wrote:
Personally I only like the old box dreads. Even the contemptor just looks out of place to me.

I like them, I just wish they had proper knees. Add knees to classic box dreads and I'm happy.

Is that to say you'd like posable legs, or that the the old Dreadnoughts don't have knee joints? If the former, I imagine if we got a shiny new kit as part of the Horus Heresy line, I imagine it would have articulation just like the other Dreadnought kits. Being as old as it is, the design was limited and a lot of sprue space was wasted. A modern kit should do much better, if the designers were so inclined.

Even so the old knee joint was okay to work with. You could cut into it and reposition it without major resculpting. It's just the cables that connect the leg to the body that were a bit of a pain in that regard.

I don't know if I have a picture anywhere of a converted stock Dreadnought, but here's one of an Ironclad I converted. The required work is the same.

Picture spoilered for size:

I have to add one thing that I want to fix on the Imperial Knights..
The chains word arm... does it look a tad short to anyone else?

I keep trying to figure out how IKs fight infantry... you know, without riverdancing on their heads.

i always assumed that knight melee weapons were intended for fighting other super-heavies more than infantry

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
i always assumed that knight melee weapons were intended for fighting other super-heavies more than infantry

Exactly - in theory Knights and other Titans aren't really bothered with infantry or tanks; they step over them and deal with other knight scaled and titan scaled threats on the opposing side. You don't blunt your chainsword driving it into the ground* going at infantry; you tear into opposing knights or slash at titan legs



*This happens with real world chainsaws. Drive them into the ground and they get really blunt very fast

Point taken.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
II keep trying to figure out how IKs fight infantry... you know, without riverdancing on their heads.

This seems akin to asking how a battleship fights infantry.

Realistically (and I know that's a dangerous word for a 40k discussion), infantry should not even be on a Knight's radar. They should be there to take out vehicles and bunkers - not infantry.

The most I could see them carrying would be some large-scale mortars or flamethrowers.

But really, IKs shouldn't be worrying about infantry because they should be supported by standard vehicles and infantry that will deal with enemy infantry.

 vipoid wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
II keep trying to figure out how IKs fight infantry... you know, without riverdancing on their heads.

This seems akin to asking how a battleship fights infantry.

Isn't this how Battleships fight infantry?

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