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 insaniak wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
Adding female superhumans into the mix is inevitably going to raise the question of "can they have super babies?", which requires an answer of no (which is equally silly to no girl marines because hormones) ...

Do you consider it silly that the process sterilises men?

Because I'm not really seeing a difference. Aspirants go through some pretty extreme surgical and genetic modifications. The idea that they can't reproduce afterwards isn't much of a stretch, particularly if it was deliberately built into said process precisely to force their reliance on Imperial resources to replenish their numbers.

Not to mention, the work is done after they're already born.
Even if Marines and Custodes weren't sterile, there's every chance that their kids would be regular humans. They could get the same work done to make them a Marine/Custode, but there's no guarantee that said kid will be the best candidate.

Edit: Also, 40k doesn't have any prominent non-binary characters to my knowledge.
Or any prominent trans characters.

If there are some and I just missed them, please let me know.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Edit: Also, 40k doesn't have any prominent non-binary characters to my knowledge.
Or any prominent trans characters.

If there are some and I just missed them, please let me know.

I think I've heard mention of a member/members of the Mechanicus.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
Adding female superhumans into the mix is inevitably going to raise the question of "can they have super babies?", which requires an answer of no (which is equally silly to no girl marines because hormones) ...

Do you consider it silly that the process sterilises men?

Because I'm not really seeing a difference. Aspirants go through some pretty extreme surgical and genetic modifications. The idea that they can't reproduce afterwards isn't much of a stretch, particularly if it was deliberately built into said process precisely to force their reliance on Imperial resources to replenish their numbers.

Yes I do consider it silly. If asked to name one single part of a Custode or Astarte that is inferior to a regular unaugmented human, there is nothing, and if asked to name an organ that is forcibly removed to make a Custodes or Astartes, there is likewise nothing - so it is silly to say that their bones are denser, their skin is tougher, their muscles are stronger, their lungs can filter poisons from the air, but their genitals don't work for reasons. It is equally silly to no girls allowed, but at least doesn't create plot holes that could potentially invalidate large parts of the setting.

 Tyran wrote:
It doesn't stop Bile, whose New Men and Gland-Hounds can be female. It doesn't stop Cadia, Catachan, Krieg or any of the other war obessesed IG worlds.

Quick fact check request here - I was under the impression that Krieg essentially supplies vat-born clones for its Regiments, and the clone profiles are all male - has that been retconned somewhen?

There's also the Vostroyans, who I believe recruit firstborn sons as their troops, I think?

 Insularum wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
Adding female superhumans into the mix is inevitably going to raise the question of "can they have super babies?", which requires an answer of no (which is equally silly to no girl marines because hormones) ...

Do you consider it silly that the process sterilises men?

Because I'm not really seeing a difference. Aspirants go through some pretty extreme surgical and genetic modifications. The idea that they can't reproduce afterwards isn't much of a stretch, particularly if it was deliberately built into said process precisely to force their reliance on Imperial resources to replenish their numbers.

Yes I do consider it silly. If asked to name one single part of a Custode or Astarte that is inferior to a regular unaugmented human, there is nothing, and if asked to name an organ that is forcibly removed to make a Custodes or Astartes, there is likewise nothing - so it is silly to say that their bones are denser, their skin is tougher, their muscles are stronger, their lungs can filter poisons from the air, but their genitals don't work for reasons. It is equally silly to no girls allowed, but at least doesn't create plot holes that could potentially invalidate large parts of the setting.

Because the process certainly will never have unintended side effects.
And the children of Astartes will definitely be Astartes from birth, and not just humans.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Edit: Also, 40k doesn't have any prominent non-binary characters to my knowledge.
Or any prominent trans characters.

If there are some and I just missed them, please let me know.

I think I've heard mention of a member/members of the Mechanicus.

Yeah, that's fair. A lot of Tech Priests and such are and present as agender.
Thanks for the reminder.

Well, just because your Mum and Dad were genhanced, it’s doesn’t necessarily mean the worky bits of their rude bits had their gubbins altered.

However, given a female aspirant would be just as pumped full of artificial hormones such as testosterone and Emperor knows what other fictional “made in a lab” synthetic hormones, it may well render her infertile.

And that’s before we consider whilst some lady rude parts might need to be retained (human gonads don’t just produce gametes, but help regulate hormone levels), the womb isn’t necessarily part of that.

So whilst I’m not gonna say no (life, uh, finds a way, as House Goliath stand as absolute direct proof of) I’d say it’s very unlikely to be possible, and even if it was? First you’d need to have two Marines Who Love Each Other Very Much, their gametes to have had their respective worky bits altered to the new superhuman standard, and for the resulting zygote to survive in the womb. Which is to say - exceptionally rare.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Edit: Also, 40k doesn't have any prominent non-binary characters to my knowledge.

Wait, surely Tyranids would qualify?

To my knowledge, they don't have separate sexes (unless I'm mistaken, they don't even reproduce sexually), so surely they would be non-binary by definition?

You could also make a case for Necrons. Granted, they were probably male/female at one point in their lives. However, after countless millennia trapped in mechanical bodies, with no hormones, no ability to reproduce etc., I would imagine the distinction between the sexes would have faded substantially, if not completely.

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Edit: Also, 40k doesn't have any prominent non-binary characters to my knowledge.

Wait, surely Tyranids would qualify?

To my knowledge, they don't have separate sexes (unless I'm mistaken, they don't even reproduce sexually), so surely they would be non-binary by definition?

You could also make a case for Necrons. Granted, they were probably male/female at one point in their lives. However, after countless millennia trapped in mechanical bodies, with no hormones, no ability to reproduce etc., I would imagine the distinction between the sexes would have faded substantially, if not completely.

Agender and nonbinary are not the same.

Different members of the Mechanicus will have different outlooks on that sort of thing.

Some will be entirely beyond the concept of gender and humanity, fully embracing the machine. Some will be non-binary (possibly as a way to seek new insight by wearing different bodies). Some will be a gender. Some will be male or female. They’re not a cohesive whole as an organisation.

 Insularum wrote:

On Marines (and I guess Custodes) specifically - it has come up repeatedly in the existing lore that everyone (Imperium and Chaos) is using every tool available to mass produce super soldiers, whether it's Bile and his clones or the Raven Guard trying to replenish their legion, or Guilliman and Cawl's excellent adventures. Adding female superhumans into the mix is inevitably going to raise the question of "can they have super babies?", which requires an answer of no (which is equally silly to no girl marines because hormones) in order to stop the whole lore come crashing down. If Custodes can have babies, why bother with marines? And why hasn't the Imperium made enough Custodes to replace marines yet and win the galactic war on easy mode? Likewise, if marines could reproduce via good old sex, that would surely be easier than the weird and often fatal rituals for transitioning a human, and why bother with the Guard or Sisters?

This is complete non sequitur. This has nothing to do female marines, as marines are sterile.* No one (except perhaps you, by saying it is silly) has suggested changing the being sterile part. You have literally invented this additional change to justify your opposition of the concept. And not only that, you have also invented some bizarre Lamarckian inheritance, where surgically crafted extra organs are passed to the offspring! This is pretty much grasping at straws territory.

(* Far more likely on female superhuman BTW, than on male one, as the female body obviously has far bigger part to play in producing the offspring, so the processes are far easier to disturb.)

Bah, all peasants.

The smartest, best looking, and greatest fighters in the universe (because they defended their worlds for tens of thousands of years before the Imperium even existed) are Knights... and both Barons and Baroness, King and Queen all are equal.

So if the royals can be equal I'm sure the proletariat can be equal too. If you need a royal decree, we can work on that.


Another foul xenos to consider is ye Olde Necron. I'm sure the Necrons are pretty genderless for the most part.

I'm not even sure the Silent King will sire any offspring.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

The smartest, best looking, and greatest fighters in the universe (because they defended their worlds for tens of thousands of years before the Imperium even existed) are Knights... and both Barons and Baroness, King and Queen all are equal.

Which, BTW, was not the case in their first codex. It was said that the pilots were sons of the noble houses. But it was wisely changed in the next codex, and I don't remember anyone having a fit over that.

 Crimson wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

The smartest, best looking, and greatest fighters in the universe (because they defended their worlds for tens of thousands of years before the Imperium even existed) are Knights... and both Barons and Baroness, King and Queen all are equal.

Which, BTW, was not the case in their first codex. It was said that the pilots were sons of the noble houses. But it was wisely changed in the next codex, and I don't remember anyone having a fit over that.

Which was exactly how they did custodes, because the archaic language is on theme for 40k, but there was never any information that said the specific genetic changes were sex locked like geneseed is supposed to be. People just assumed that 'recruited from the sons of nobility' was the same as 'only men can be recruited because the process doesn't work on women'. And subsequently the whiners were misusing the term gaslighting to describe GW saying that custodes can be recruited from men and women...


It still just boils down to some peoples' enjoyment somehow directly affected by whether other people can enjoy the same thing or not - like, unless you can't have girls, I can't enjoy space marines. Never mind that you can play your army without any girls in it whatsoever without it at all contravening the existence of female marines. Don't like female space marines, don't play with them. But no, it has to be precluded as an option for other people or it's ruined for them. The height of privilege to require other people's fun be prevented so you can have yours. A limitation entirely self imposed. Like people that refused to watch american football after it was integrated because the very idea that there COULD BE non whites on the team ruined their ability to have fun.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

Another foul xenos to consider is ye Olde Necron. I'm sure the Necrons are pretty genderless for the most part.

Necrons consider everything not a Necron to be non-binary.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I think in the US armed forces women officers are still addressed as "sir".

I work on a US Army installation and see soldiers every day. Female officers are still addressed as ma'am. It may be different in other services, but I doubt it.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I think in the US armed forces women officers are still addressed as "sir".

I work on a US Army installation and see soldiers every day. Female officers are still addressed as ma'am. It may be different in other services, but I doubt it.

Oh really? My info might be bad then. I'll try to figure out where I got that from.

Lol. Possibly Star Trek.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Different members of the Mechanicus will have different outlooks on that sort of thing.

Some will be entirely beyond the concept of gender and humanity, fully embracing the machine. Some will be non-binary (possibly as a way to seek new insight by wearing different bodies). Some will be a gender. Some will be male or female. They’re not a cohesive whole as an organisation.

Honestly, I'd expect the AdMech to be pro-binary...

 Crimson wrote:

 Insularum wrote:

On Marines (and I guess Custodes) specifically - it has come up repeatedly in the existing lore that everyone (Imperium and Chaos) is using every tool available to mass produce super soldiers, whether it's Bile and his clones or the Raven Guard trying to replenish their legion, or Guilliman and Cawl's excellent adventures. Adding female superhumans into the mix is inevitably going to raise the question of "can they have super babies?", which requires an answer of no (which is equally silly to no girl marines because hormones) in order to stop the whole lore come crashing down. If Custodes can have babies, why bother with marines? And why hasn't the Imperium made enough Custodes to replace marines yet and win the galactic war on easy mode? Likewise, if marines could reproduce via good old sex, that would surely be easier than the weird and often fatal rituals for transitioning a human, and why bother with the Guard or Sisters?

This is complete non sequitur. This has nothing to do female marines, as marines are sterile.* No one (except perhaps you, by saying it is silly) has suggested changing the being sterile part. You have literally invented this additional change to justify your opposition of the concept. And not only that, you have also invented some bizarre Lamarckian inheritance, where surgically crafted extra organs are passed to the offspring! This is pretty much grasping at straws territory.

(* Far more likely on female superhuman BTW, than on male one, as the female body obviously has far bigger part to play in producing the offspring, so the processes are far easier to disturb.)

Lamarckian inheritance would mean that a space marine/custode is still human, and the processes they go through are no different than steroid abuse. I thought that geneseed implantation altered the entire physiology of the recipient, if it didn't the human parts of the body would struggle to keep up with the practically immortal bits.

I'm not asking you to like my position on this, I just think it's an issue that can never be satisfactorily addressed - for example I wasn't aware that marines are sterile/or if you've just invented that, but it's irrelevant as all you do is promote solving the sterility issue as the number 1 priority of Cawl instead of primaris or Bile instead of his new men. The most efficient means of mass production of super humans is a major advantage for whoever achieves it first.

But there are things we can point to which may prevent it. And the presence of Abhumans made that way by design (and borderline cases such as House Goliath) which breed true, we can’t necessarily rule it out.

But, that’s still on the assumption that a hypothetical female Astartes first retains all the bits and pieces necessary to conceive and carry a child, that the modification and necessary hormonal changes don’t prevent conception and gestation, and then that Astartes (with all their psychic and hypnotic indoctrination ) would even be interested in making babies in the first place.

That first part is the main difference between Astartes, and Abhumans.

Abhumans are born that way, and their DNA is fundamentally altered. But, an Astartes begins life as a baseline human, with stuff added later. So we can’t say for certain their DNA is altered on the same fundamental level as Abhumans, so it doesn’t follow the differences between Human and Astartes are reflected in gamete production.

 Insularum wrote:
. The most efficient means of mass production of super humans is a major advantage for whoever achieves it first.

This is still predicated on the idea of natural birth being the most efficient means of reproducing Astartes which (1) speaking as a parent, seems like a stretch and (2) would have been the process used by the Emperor in the first place, if that were so.

Given the horrors of 40K? I can easily see the eggs from any successful female candidate being harvested, and then fertilised and gestated artificially. That way, each female Astartes could, fairly reliably, provide a couple of dozen Super Kids, without being out of action for any of it.

That would also allow for screening of the zygotes and embryos throughout gestation, checking for purity, aberration and that.

And I still argue given the Astartes Project was a “save what we can” bodge job, we can’t say with any certainty such wasn’t the original Ideal Outcome of the Primarch Project.

Female Primarchs may have been a few more centuries of work for The Emperor at some point. But now we’ll never know, as all that went rapidly out the window when everything spiralled out of control.

 insaniak wrote:
Changing their story to having been eliminated for some unspecified but vaguely hinted reasons sometime during the Great Crusade keeps the mystery and avoids GW having to come up with two more legions on the fly, but is still a change to established background material, which I'm told is a heinous thing worthy of hate and derision.

Are you reading about the same topic on a different website? Because I don't see this written here anywhere.

What I do see are sentences like this who supposedly try to give their own opinion more weight by misrepresenting what was said by "the opposition". Feels exhausting to read after a few times.

Other thoughts on Space Marine reproduction?

We know of course that the implants come from germ cells, harvested from Geneseed, and it’s those which allow the organs necessary for making more Astartes to be cultured and grown.

But, we also know Geneseed degradation is an issue - likely due to the Geneseed being a form of cloning, and so likely some form of genetic bottleneck.

I’d propose that Female Astartes may offer a fix for that? I’m struggling to put into words why, but for now I’m putting that down to my lack of knowledge about genetics than it being outright wrong. But essentially blending the Geneseed harvested from male and female Astartes might allow greater genetic variation, alleviating if not outright solving degradation?

No matter what we all may disagree on, I think we can agree (having lived through many many price hikes) that GW loves to make money. If they though they could make money by having FSM, I think they would have done so already. The fact that they haven't done it probably means they wont. If they felt like they could make more money using a faction other than space marines as the "poster boys", then they already would have done so.

Honestly I think this is getting further into biology than any of the GW writers did when they came up with this in the first place, but... Regarding fertility of current marines? We know that steroid use affects sperm count and testicle size. The sort of steroids required to produce a space marine? Poof, those little nadgers are gone!

Female marines could be introduced as simply as "Oh damn, turns out the Primaris process works on birds too. We never bothered checking for hundreds of years because Imperial dogma and inefficiency, whoops!"

 JNAProductions wrote:
Agender and nonbinary are not the same.

They may not be the same but they are also not mutually-exclusive.

Again, Tyranids do not have a gender binary. Thus, they are non-binary literally by definition.

Crispy78 wrote:
Honestly I think this is getting further into biology than any of the GW writers did when they came up with this in the first place, but... Regarding fertility of current marines? We know that steroid use affects sperm count and testicle size. The sort of steroids required to produce a space marine? Poof, those little nadgers are gone!

Female marines could be introduced as simply as "Oh damn, turns out the Primaris process works on birds too. We never bothered checking for hundreds of years because Imperial dogma and inefficiency, whoops!"

Not to mention whilst rare, XY or XX Chromsomes don’t necessarily result in a man and a woman respectively. And there are other, again fairly rare, combinations possible. Because biology is weird.

For more learning on this, I can recommend the Professor Dave Explains video on confusion about trans persons. It’s balanced, and rooted in science as well might expect from Professor Dave. I won’t link to it here, but it’s easy enough to find on YouTube

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

Another foul xenos to consider is ye Olde Necron. I'm sure the Necrons are pretty genderless for the most part.

Necrons consider everything not a Necron to be non-binary.

::sigh:: I see the alleged joke you're trying to make, but this probably isn't the best time or place for it.

 Insularum wrote:
Lamarckian inheritance would mean that a space marine/custode is still human, and the processes they go through are no different than steroid abuse.

It is advanced form of that, combined with transplant surgery.

I thought that geneseed implantation altered the entire physiology of the recipient, if it didn't the human parts of the body would struggle to keep up with the practically immortal bits.

Hormones affect your whole body, They however do not rewrite your genes. Nothing in the marine creatiopn process implies that the DNA is affected.

I'm not asking you to like my position on this, I just think it's an issue that can never be satisfactorily addressed - for example I wasn't aware that marines are sterile/or if you've just invented that,

You were not aware of that? How is tat possilbe? It has been similarly part of the lore for ages, like them not being women. And has there ever been a single instance of a space marine having fathered a child?

Anyway, actual GW quote on marines and custodes:

"Both are subject to extensive psychological and cognitive conditioning, and are physically and mentally reworked to render most of their baser drives inert and their beings rechanneled towards aggression, goal acquisition and the fulfillment of duty, and as a further safeguard against distraction and as a biological control, both are of course incapable of procreation. In both cases all that is left are beings of singular purpose"

but it's irrelevant as all you do is promote solving the sterility issue as the number 1 priority of Cawl instead of primaris or Bile instead of his new men. The most efficient means of mass production of super humans is a major advantage for whoever achieves it first.

This relies on the absurd assumption that the enhancements would be inherited and that this form of marine creation would be more effective than the current one. Neither are assumptions one needs to make. This is just you adding weird additional assumptions to the female marines that are not part of the concept, so that you have an excuse for rejecting it.

 vipoid wrote:

They may not be the same but they are also not mutually-exclusive.

Again, Tyranids do not have a gender binary. Thus, they are non-binary literally by definition.

Tyranids don't have a concept of gender.

Someone that is non-binary is non-binary because their concept of their gender is non-binary. Even agender still have a concept of gender (they are still humans raised in human society), they just have defined themselves as being outside it.

Tyranids don't have a concept of gender, don't need a concept of gender, because they aren't human, they don't have a society and they aren't even individuals. They aren't people, they are things.

To bring pronouns into it, you refer to an individual non-binary as they, you refer to an individual agender as they.
You refer to one individual Tyranid as it.