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Removed

Space marines are dangerous. The Imperium needs to disrupt their ability to procreate in order to keep itself safe from from renegade marines hidden at birth to eliminate the potential for another Horus.

Even if FSM existed, and even if the process of Marine creation did rewrite DNA, the Imperium would still need to control procreation in some other way.

 Leopold Helveine wrote:
Removed.

Marines are most certainly NOT cannon fodder. There's roughly 1 million of them for the entire galaxy.

The Imperial Guard, however, IS cannon fodder, and has lots of women.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Orks are entirely asexual.

Boyz is a gendered term, but one denoting rank, not defining sex or gender. Similar to Private. Oddboyz denotes a given profession/proclivity.

No males. No females. Just Orks. It’s even doubtful Orks really understand or care other species have different genders. You’re not an Ork, so you’re not as good, unless you can put up a good fight. If you can’t put up a good fight, that’s because Orks is best.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Not to mention whilst rare, XY or XX Chromsomes don’t necessarily result in a man and a woman respectively.

Er... what?

Yes. Yes, they do. That's the purpose of the sex-chromosomes. To determine your sex.

Some men have XX, some women have XY. And I’m not meaning transgendered persons.

Your wedding tackle. That’s what I’m referring to. Whilst it is rare, you can be physically male, but have XX Chromosomes, and physically female with XY Chromosomes.

Here’s a link to well cited Wikipedia summaries should you care to do further reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Some men have XX, some women have XY. And I’m not meaning transgendered persons.

Your wedding tackle. That’s what I’m referring to. Whilst it is rare, you can be physically male, but have XX Chromosomes, and physically female with XY Chromosomes.

Here’s a link to well cited Wikipedia summaries should you care to do further reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

Huh. Fair enough. I'd never heard of that form of intersex before.

Thanks for the links.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Some men have XX, some women have XY. And I’m not meaning transgendered persons.

Your wedding tackle. That’s what I’m referring to. Whilst it is rare, you can be physically male, but have XX Chromosomes, and physically female with XY Chromosomes.

Here’s a link to well cited Wikipedia summaries should you care to do further reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

Yup.

And people ALWAYS forget Intersex- the "I" in 2SLGBTQIA.

These folks were once referred to using the term hermaphrodite, which like so many other terms has been replaced with the more inclusive term Intersex. These folks run an anotomical spectrum; some have both sets of reproductive organs, some have a dominant organ and a less developed organ, others don't necessarily have either in a way that would be recognized by cis-folks. I don't know the gentics behind these conditions- XXY, YY, XYY.... I just know that people with these conditions do in fact exist.

And while I don't want to go too deep down the politics rabbit hole for obvious reasons, these folks often choose treatment options to help them transition to the gender with which they identify, which is just one more reason why blanket laws against gender affirming care are an atrocity.

But again, people don't know what they don't know, and they tend to make their decisions in the voting booth based on "Well it should work for me, who cares about anyone else."

Sorry- feel free to take away my soapbox. Here endeth the rant.

How 'bout them femarines?

 vipoid wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Some men have XX, some women have XY. And I’m not meaning transgendered persons.

Your wedding tackle. That’s what I’m referring to. Whilst it is rare, you can be physically male, but have XX Chromosomes, and physically female with XY Chromosomes.

Here’s a link to well cited Wikipedia summaries should you care to do further reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

Huh. Fair enough. I'd never heard of that form of intersex before.

Thanks for the links.

No worries learning is important, and no-one knows everything.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orks are entirely asexual.

Boyz is a gendered term, but one denoting rank, not defining sex or gender. Similar to Private. Oddboyz denotes a given profession/proclivity.

No males. No females. Just Orks. It’s even doubtful Orks really understand or care other species have different genders. You’re not an Ork, so you’re not as good, unless you can put up a good fight. If you can’t put up a good fight, that’s because Orks is best.

Are you suggesting that orks don’t present as masculine in miniature form or artwork? Do you also contend that their attested behaviors are not meant to invoke stereotypes closely associated with the behavior of male dominated subcultures?

I’m asking because it seems like your point is that orks should appeal equally to everyone regardless of gender since they technically aren’t male despite being basically He-Man shaped.

If we were to flip this, do you think an army of Hagz with Karen haircuts, yoga pants and soccer mom bodies whose sole purpose is defeating “the manager” while sipping red wine would also appeal to young men because technically they reproduce asexually?

Using a fringe case to define something is in essence , pardon mistook my logical fallacy , the correct one is Persuasive definition...

also it's this time of the year again isn't it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

If we were to flip this, do you think an army of Hagz with Karen haircuts, yoga pants and soccer mom bodies whose sole purpose is defeating “the manager” while sipping red wine would also appeal to young men because technically they reproduce asexually?

You could definitely mix some Hagz in with the Boyz just fine

I’m suggesting Orks present as….Orks. An entirely alien species in biology and society.

Are the resulting models masculine coded? Sure. But lore wise, Orks is Orks, neither male nor female. Just Orks.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m suggesting Orks present as….Orks. An entirely alien species in biology and society.

Are the resulting models masculine coded? Sure. But lore wise, Orks is Orks, neither male nor female. Just Orks.

I’m not sure where the relevance to this discussion is. Anyone new to the hobby, or even casual players, will see orks as another male faction based on minis, artwork, and surface level fluff. Only people who are elbow deep into the lore of the hobby will be aware that orks aren’t really male. By that point, they’re either already committed or they’ve bounced. In terms of popular perception of the game, orks are male. When it comes to player attitudes towards their armies (which often spill over into interactions with other GW customers), orks are overwhelmingly male.

It was in response to a now deleted comment, rather scotching the context.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It was in response to a now deleted comment, rather scotching the context.

Ah, ok. Nevermind then.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insularum wrote:
Lamarckian inheritance would mean that a space marine/custode is still human, and the processes they go through are no different than steroid abuse. I thought that geneseed implantation altered the entire physiology of the recipient, if it didn't the human parts of the body would struggle to keep up with the practically immortal bits.

Hormones affect your whole body, They however do not rewrite your genes. Nothing in the marine creatiopn process implies that the DNA is affected.

Further to this, the genetic changes also have to specifically affect the gametes to be passed on to offspring. Life undergoes genetic changes constantly, but the vast, vast majority of these in humans do not get passed to offspring because they occur in cells that have nothing to do with reproduction and die with the person. Cancer (generally) happens due to acquired genetic changes and is not passed to offspring, although some genetic predispositions are passed on.

If geneseed rewrites genetics, it specifically would have to do so in gametes to even have a chance of being passed on.

I did a cursory search, and found in these forums threads about female orks for AoS armies (A female warboss and her Mama's Boyz)...

I also found pictures from Blood Bowl of Orc Cheerleaders, that are probably female.

It's also important to remember that Marines are a little more important to have equity in than other factions like Orks and Boyz. Narratively they might have all this dark backstory of horrific surgeries that make them inhuman freaks, etc, etc, etc, but that's not how they're presented.

Marines are, like it or not, the self insert power fantasy faction. They are absolutely without a doubt intended to allow people to see themselves as larger than life heroes who dominate the battlefield and save humanity from all the horrors that assail them on all sides. That's the sales pitch, that's why they sell, and that's what most people buy them for.

So yes, it absolutely matters when the self insert faction doesn't let people insert themselves in a way that just isn't as important for other factions.

 LunarSol wrote:
It's also important to remember that Marines are a little more important to have equity in than other factions like Orks and Boyz. Narratively they might have all this dark backstory of horrific surgeries that make them inhuman freaks, etc, etc, etc, but that's not how they're presented.

Marines are, like it or not, the self insert power fantasy faction. They are absolutely without a doubt intended to allow people to see themselves as larger than life heroes who dominate the battlefield and save humanity from all the horrors that assail them on all sides. That's the sales pitch, that's why they sell, and that's what most people buy them for.

So yes, it absolutely matters when the self insert faction doesn't let people insert themselves in a way that just isn't as important for other factions.

I get your point, but Marines are way more fitting to your average male fantasy. (Dark) Eldar and Custodes would be more appealing to traditional female fantasies imho. Which hearkens back to the point that other factions should be given more attention to solve the "representation problem".

 a_typical_hero wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
It's also important to remember that Marines are a little more important to have equity in than other factions like Orks and Boyz. Narratively they might have all this dark backstory of horrific surgeries that make them inhuman freaks, etc, etc, etc, but that's not how they're presented.

Marines are, like it or not, the self insert power fantasy faction. They are absolutely without a doubt intended to allow people to see themselves as larger than life heroes who dominate the battlefield and save humanity from all the horrors that assail them on all sides. That's the sales pitch, that's why they sell, and that's what most people buy them for.

So yes, it absolutely matters when the self insert faction doesn't let people insert themselves in a way that just isn't as important for other factions.

I get your point, but Marines are way more fitting to your average male fantasy. (Dark) Eldar and Custodes would be more appealing to traditional female fantasies imho. Which hearkens back to the point that other factions should be given more attention to solve the "representation problem".

But what's easier - elevating every other faction to match the status and presentation of Space Marines, or adding a few women to the Space Marine range?

It's not like you would need to make new units for Marines - maybe a sprue's worth of heads and some feminine Scouts, and the job's a good'un.

Also, I think you vastly underestimate how many women might want to strap on some power armor and start curb-stomping some xenos.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


But what's easier - elevating every other faction to match the status and presentation of Space Marines, or adding a few women to the Space Marine range?

It's not like you would need to make new units for Marines - maybe a sprue's worth of heads and some feminine Scouts, and the job's a good'un.

Also, I think you vastly underestimate how many women might want to strap on some power armor and start curb-stomping some xenos.

Not to make light of the situation, but I would actually look forward to a new primaris lieutenant if it was a female model.

I say, add some new models. If you don't like em, don't play with them.

But if it adds a new player to the grand game, and someone new gets to have some fun, then it was all worth it.

I've recently had a renewed interest in Warhammer 40,000 and this is a topic that has always fascinated me: why are there no female Space Marines? Whilst we are at it, the League of Votann also appear to have no female members, having all male models. Whilst having female Space Marines (or Leagues of Votann units) may indeed be nice, if we are wanting to encourage the other 50-51% of the population to take more of an interest in our hobby, talking about female Space Marines feels like a bit of 'red herring' to me.

I was having a look around the official Warhammer World website and I took it upon myself to count up the number of people in the promotional photograph they supply on the home page of the website for the Events Hall (this photograph). There are between seventy and eighty people in that photograph and at most, only two of them lack male anatomy, and one of those two is a member of staff. Why might this be?

I personally know several ladies who enjoy Warhammer 40,000 but it's a stereotype (and sadly a broadly accurate one) that the sorts people who are drawn to such hobbies as trading card games, role playing games (e.g. Dungeons and Dragons) or other hobbies typically classed as "geeky" or "nerdy" tend to be quite awkward around humans of the opposite gender. Given the old saying "the fish rots from the head down", could it be that community leaders need to find ways of making wargaming environments more friendly and welcoming to new players, especially those who are female? The seriousness with which some people take the game can be quite off-putting to a typical casual player? I know it would be off-putting to me.

I am reminded of that episode of The Simpsons where Homer Simpson fielded questions from Itchy and Scratchy fans. I saw the scene of him taking questions on YouTube recently and I took it upon myself to read some of the comments. People were bemoaning how accurately the scene portrays nerdy fanboys.

It’s always worth noting that utterly awful as The Imperium is? The Administratum, Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicus, Ecclesiarchy etc aren’t institutionally sexist, racist, homophobic etc.

Will some sects of the Imperial Creed be worse due to sexism etc? Sure.

Are Abhumans (viewed as stable strains of mutation) sidelined? Yes.

But the relatively petty squabbles of the modern day just don’t manifest in the same way. Nobody much cares about the colour of your skin, who you prefer to have in your bed at night etc. They’ve Actually Threat To Society others to pin all that distracting hate on.

And in the meantime? They’ll treat the general human populace equally awfully as The Imperium continues its crusade to simply maintain its own awful, awful status quo.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
But what's easier - elevating every other faction to match the status and presentation of Space Marines, or adding a few women to the Space Marine range?

It's not like you would need to make new units for Marines - maybe a sprue's worth of heads and some feminine Scouts, and the job's a good'un.

Only because something is easier doesn't make it the better choice overall. Everybody would benefit from other factions becoming more popular and if it is only because you won't see Marines as often on the opposite side of the table. A female character model and some upgrade sprues is all that is needed for most factions to increase the appeal to women. That is especially true for Custodes, now that they already have women in the lore.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Also, I think you vastly underestimate how many women might want to strap on some power armor and start curb-stomping some xenos.

But if that would be the only requirement, then Sisters of Battle would already satisfy this need more than enough. Space Marines are missing characteristics that typically appeal to women.

SpaceDenizen wrote:
I was having a look around the official Warhammer World website and I took it upon myself to count up the number of people in the promotional photograph they supply on the home page of the website for the Events Hall (this photograph). There are between seventy and eighty people in that photograph and at most, only two of them lack male anatomy, and one of those two is a member of staff. Why might this be?

Some things are simply more appealing to one gender over the other. Even if every single faction in the game would get equal attention and is equally appealing to men and women, you would still have more men picking up Warhammer.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I did a cursory search, and found in these forums threads about female orks for AoS armies (A female warboss and her Mama's Boyz)...

I also found pictures from Blood Bowl of Orc Cheerleaders, that are probably female.

Orcs (WHFB & AoS) and Orks (40k) are not the same creatures, despite their physical similarity.

You got proof for that, Hero?
Actual scientific proof that women are inherently (and NOT just socially) predisposed towards not liking 40k as much as men?

And GW should put less emphasis on Marines. That’s a thing they should do-but while Marines are THE faction? They should be open to everybody in the same way they’re open to men.

As for the Sisters tangent, they have the battlenun aesthetic. If you don’t want that in your power armored ladies, too bad.
Marines have a much, much wider pool of themes to draw on, both visually and in lore.

Ultimately, you may well be correct in your assessment of Warhammer 40,000 as a hobby. As a counterpoint, most of people who write, say, Yu-Gi-Oh TCG fanfiction tend to be women and yet when I was a child going to events for game, I remember there being a distinct lack of women playing the game at these events, despite knowing how much fanficiton women write about the game and it was obvious to me that many of them had intimate knowledge of the lore. Even if women may never outnumber men at Warhammer 40,000 events, I still believe more could be done to encourage female participation.

On representation driving inclusion?

All GW, like any company, can do is take steps to ensure their core offering has as broad an appeal as possible.

And for a long time, GW presented as a white, typically middle class, male hobby. The characters on book covers were near universally white males. The example models in Codexes, Army Books and White Dwarf were near exclusively painted as Caucasian.

Intended or not, that does send a message regarding your intended audience.

In recent years, we’ve seen a concerted effort to change that. Greater variety of ethnicities in art and model paint jobs*, male and female characters on book covers and as lead characters in fiction.

Does that therefore mean there’s now a societally representative mix of gamers? I dunno. And it ain’t necessarily so. But what it has done is allow a wide a section of society as possible to see itself as being actively welcome.

And its cost GW nothing. The books and art were gonna be released anyways, being an intrinsic part of the wider hobby. So even if it hasn’t had a particularly dramatic impact in their customer demographic? It’s absolutely a case of “no harm, no foul”.

Now, one could point to their sustained pretty stellar year on year growth as evidence the move to greater diversity has had the intended effect - and we can’t rule that out. But, we don’t have anything like the right information to say for certain. But we absolutely, beyond any shadow of a doubt, no matter how much Weird Internet Men might like to tell their sad little droogs to the contrary? It. Hasn’t. Hurt. Their. Takings.

*thankfully, GW’s face and body sculpts, possibly due to Heroic Scale requiring some level of exaggeration, are pretty ethnically ambiguous. Because even well intentioned attempts to have specific racial facial features can go very racist very quickly, when characterisation turns to caricature.

I remember seeing a lot of complains over the years whenever a non white character appeared in artwork. I've seen the gamut of arguments from the arian eugenic the only surviving 'race' is 'white', to 'well this faction/force is based on this historical thing which was european, so no black kriegers'. and so on.

I recall the dawn of fire cover with the black marine drawing huge amounts of ire in the guise of 'well he can't be because geneseed makes you look like your primarch and guilliman is white'.

But it left quickly and hasn't really popped up in 40k social media since.


And few people would consider other people having black marines preventing me from having fun seriously.