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My thesis in response is that women aren't catered to with those products simply because women trend towards different fantasy expressions, a la barbie, the rom com or I guess instagram influncers these days. And in a number of those spaces the depiction of a male perspective is also lacking because of the target audience.

Edit: Or like Twilight and 50 shades of Gray, lol.

None of the women I know asked for Barbie or Rom Coms. They have asked for Space Marines. If women trend towards wanting power fantasy Space Marines, shouldn’t they be included then?

I think the closest super hero analogy isn’t Wakanda or Themyscyra, but Pepper Pots. She was just the squishy love interest in the first film, but in later films she got to wear Iron Man armor, too. She wasn’t forced to remain a passive support character for the real heroes, at least where the wish fulfillment aspect is concerned.

The elephant in the room of course, as others have pointed out is that GW has never been all that shy of changing their lore if they think it will make them money.

How many big time sisters players do we have here? Anyone purchase a couple of the hereticus battleforce sets? What about the new box set?


What killed female space marines originally wasn't representation, it was a simple lack of sales at a time when citadel were trying to push female models. Is anyone here not buying like it's 1986 ?

The only 40k stuff I’ve bought in years were all gifts for friends and family. However, Space Hulk is a game I used to play with my wife, where she would only play as the Tyranids. A handful of female marines is something she might interestedin, especially if they can be themed and blinged like Dark Angels or Blood Angels. At the very least, she’d use one for Shadows of Brimstone.

And no, Sisters of Battle didn’t appeal to her. She’s not into that particular imagery. I’m more likely to build and play as SOB than she is. (I did buy some when they were new, as well as some SOS…but I mostly bought Shieldwolf’s Sisters of Tallaerium, Northern Ranger women and more recently their Valkyries. I also make sure to support Wargames Atlantics female options, because I enjoy having a good mix of characters, genders, even species. Let’s face it, GW is a company it’s hard to support, especially when there are better and cheaper options elsewhere.)

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
None of the women I know asked for Barbie or Rom Coms. They have asked for Space Marines. If women trend towards wanting power fantasy Space Marines, shouldn’t they be included then?

If there really was a trend, then maybe. Or maybe representation would be bolstered in other ways. It's up to the company/authors.

Though I have to ask: "None"? Like, does your mom want female Space Marines and would she play 40k (consume product) if there were?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think the closest super hero analogy isn’t Wakanda or Themyscyra, but Pepper Pots. She was just the squishy love interest in the first film, but in later films she got to wear Iron Man armor, too. She wasn’t forced to remain a passive support character for the real heroes, at least where the wish fulfillment aspect is concerned.

But she's still not Iron Man with all the focus and promotion that Iron Man gets. 40K has it's female power fantasy opportunities too, in the form of SoBs, Inquisitors, Custodes, Knights, Eldar and Tau.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
None of the women I know asked for Barbie or Rom Coms. They have asked for Space Marines. If women trend towards wanting power fantasy Space Marines, shouldn’t they be included then?

If there really was a trend, then maybe. Or maybe representation would be bolstered in other ways. It's up to the company/authors.

Though I have to ask: "None"? Like, does your mom want female Space Marines and would she play 40k (consume product) if there were?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think the closest super hero analogy isn’t Wakanda or Themyscyra, but Pepper Pots. She was just the squishy love interest in the first film, but in later films she got to wear Iron Man armor, too. She wasn’t forced to remain a passive support character for the real heroes, at least where the wish fulfillment aspect is concerned.

But she's still not Iron Man with all the focus and promotion that Iron Man gets. 40K has it's female power fantasy opportunities too, in the form of SoBs, Inquisitors, Custodes, Knights, Eldar and Tau.

Well, none asked for Barbie, including my mom. Never asked how she feels about Space Marines. I should clarify the space marines sentence refers to a smaller subset of women I have talked to. But, yeah, Barbie has been out of style in my experience my whole life. Now Polly Pocket, she had a moment.

Lots ended up fighting beside Tony in Endgame, and her armor appeared in the poster, yes? I’d argue armored Pots became entwined with the Iton Man franchise just like Happy Hogan and Rhodie. Female Space Marines, even if GW released them tomorrow, would never get the whole spotlight from the many enduring male Space Marine characters. They’d pretty much be Pots in armor next to the established, popular Chapter Masters and Chaplains. But they’d be there in armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SOBs don’t fill the same niche. Neither do Inquisitors or Cadians or any of the other things you mentioned. That’s like telling a Doace Marine player he should be happy to play as Scion or something. They are completely different things.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
SOBs don’t fill the same niche. Neither do Inquisitors or Cadians or any of the other things you mentioned. That’s like telling a Doace Marine player he should be happy to play as Scion or something. They are completely different things.

So 1986 then.

No one buys female models, no female marines get made because no one buys female models and even if the desire is there the financials show a big red flag the size of a Morbius re-release.

ccs wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As opposed to the brainwashed, chanting, destroyer of every world they encounter, fascist child soldiers as an exploration of men?

It rather hinges on how you approach representation - I replied to your post as it positioned orks as an 'exploration of masculinity' rather than just a faction that presents as male.

Because representation comes from two angles. On the one hand if I cannot feel represented by someone of a different sex/race/creed/etc then I am the problem, on the other hand if I am under represented that becomes its own form of exclusion.

That marines are all male is not in of itself the problem, that they are 95% of the narrative has made them exclusionary by marginalizing everything else.

I think there's a few layers to it, but I do agree. If Space Marines weren't the beginner friendly faction they are, if they weren't, as you say, 95% of the narrative, and if GW found a way to reconcile the whole "well, the Imperium is actually generally gender-blind" thing with the "but these Space Marines HAVE to be male for cultural reasons!" elements, then I'd agree.

I think, if those three areas were to be reconciled/solved, I wouldn't mind Space Marines being all-male. A possible example of the kind of reduction I'd be talking about would be:

Imagine if the ONLY Space Marine Chapter that existed was the Black Templars. Not "all Space Marines are now Black Templars": that all other Space Marines were gone, and only the Black Templars remained. So, stories not featuring Black Templars, media not featuring Black Templars, etc. is now all gone and vanished. Black Templars become as much of a faction as Grey Knights or Deathwatch are, with as much media space. Black Templars have a set aesthetic/design/theme, and they generally officially stick to that (obviously, people can do what they like with their minis, but in terms of how they're presented, they're not presented as ultra-customisable). They're all all-male, because of the Chapter's founding rites, culture, and beliefs, which stem from Ye Olde Earth beliefs and patriarchies.

I'm 100% okay with that, because they don't have a massive market dominance, they aren't the face of 40k, and they have a much more restricted and refined scope in what their design is supposed to be emulating, which isn't as the Ultra Customisable Beginner Friendly Faction.

Nice alternate universe vision.

Meanwhile, here in our universe it'd play out like this: One of the 19(?) factions IS going to get picked to be the lead image for marketing, etc. It WILL be made to be customizable & Beginner Friendly.
I'll put my $ on the Black Templars.
Because, even with their tabards, nothing says 40k like a (heroic) Space Marine.

Okay - if that's your perspective and take, that Space Marines will, no matter what flavour they are, no matter how "important" they are within the fictional universe, no matter how fascistic and evil they are presented, will ALWAYS be considered as the "lead image for marketing", and will always be "customisable and Beginner Friendly" - IF that is is the case, then Space Marines of all flavours should ALWAYS be gender neutral.

The flagship faction for 40k should be gender neutral. If you can't find a way for Space Marines to be anything other than the flagship faction, then they can't be gender neutral. Simple as.

Insectum7 wrote:I think fantasy or works of fiction should be free to explore their themes as they see fit, and companies should be free to market their materials or choose their target demographics as they see fit.

And likewise, people should be free to criticise and point out where those themes don't match the vibe they're trying to portray, and the market should be free to complain when their primary product is needlessly exclusionary.

Frankly, Space Marines being all male does not explore any worthwhile themes that other factions also can't explore, and pandering to certain demographics is not always a good thing from an ethic standpoint.

Not suggesting that 40k is, but for the sake of your argument - do you think is it ethical or justifiable for a company to market their materials to an audience of eugenicists or flat earthers or misogynists? Or is there a limit on which an company should cater to certain audiences?

insaniak wrote:When people feel more well represented in the mainstream, there won't be as much of a need for that sort of stuff you're branding as 'exclusionary'. But for that to happen, white men need to accept that there is room in fantasy for other people.

Precisely.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Here's what I'm reading. Women can have exclusionary fantasy. Black people can have exclusionary fantasy. But men can't have exclusionary fantasy because they are "priveledged" regardless of whether they're personal experience feels priveleged.

I feel like branding this as things that people 'can' and 'can't have is missing the point. Most western fantasy is already exclusionary fantasy for white men.

People who are under-represented in fantasy want to see more of themselves in fantasy. Because western fantasy has traditionally skewed towards white men, the way to tip the scales back towards the other direction is to create more focused fantasy that caters specifically to those under-represented groups. But that sort of thing is still very much a minority, and vastly overwhelmed by the volume of white male centric fantasy that still saturates the market, in part because parts of the market push back the moment anybody else gets any sort of representation.

When people feel more well represented in the mainstream, there won't be as much of a need for that sort of stuff you're branding as 'exclusionary'. But for that to happen, white men need to accept that there is room in fantasy for other people.

No one is arguing against more female representation. We are arguing against the homogenization and dilution of factions in a clumsy and ham-fisted way that alienates some of those who already feel attracted to them. You projecting your own feelings of inadequacy or oppression onto a fantasy sci-fi faction is not my problem and will not change how I feel about them.

If your argument for female space marines is "more representation" then the best thing to do is to increase female representation. The worst thing you can do to a franchise, in my opinion, is to fundamentally change, the model range, the culture, and the lore in order to appeal to a real world political or ideological demand from the outside. That very thing is exactly what is being expressed here.

I will be the first to advocate for sisters of battle to get more models, and different ranges with new themes. Give me more tactical sister models. Make a group based on Fenris. Give me more assassins. Give me more Sisters of Silence. Make rogue traders, and guardswomen.

Make a Mile Morales, and not a race swapped Spider Man. Everyone loves Miles Morales.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Here's what I'm reading. Women can have exclusionary fantasy. Black people can have exclusionary fantasy. But men can't have exclusionary fantasy because they are "priveledged" regardless of whether they're personal experience feels priveleged.

I feel like branding this as things that people 'can' and 'can't have is missing the point. Most western fantasy is already exclusionary fantasy for white men.

People who are under-represented in fantasy want to see more of themselves in fantasy. Because western fantasy has traditionally skewed towards white men, the way to tip the scales back towards the other direction is to create more focused fantasy that caters specifically to those under-represented groups. But that sort of thing is still very much a minority, and vastly overwhelmed by the volume of white male centric fantasy that still saturates the market, in part because parts of the market push back the moment anybody else gets any sort of representation.

When people feel more well represented in the mainstream, there won't be as much of a need for that sort of stuff you're branding as 'exclusionary'. But for that to happen, white men need to accept that there is room in fantasy for other people.

No one is arguing against more female representation. We are arguing against the homogenization and dilution of factions in a clumsy and ham-fisted way that alienates some of those who already feel attracted to them. You projecting your own feelings of inadequacy or oppression onto a fantasy sci-fi faction is not my problem and will not change how I feel about them.

If your argument for female space marines is "more representation" then the best thing to do is to increase female representation. The worst thing you can do to a franchise, in my opinion, is to fundamentally change, the model range, the culture, and the lore in order to appeal to a real world political or ideological demand from the outside. That very thing is exactly what is being expressed here.

I will be the first to advocate for sisters of battle to get more models, and different ranges with new themes. Give me more tactical sister models. Make a group based on Fenris. Give me more assassins. Give me more Sisters of Silence. Make rogue traders, and guardswomen.

Make a Mile Morales, and not a race swapped Spider Man. Everyone loves Miles Morales.

So you say you're not arguing against more representation for women, but you're also saying that women shouldn't be added to the single largest faction in the entire game.

You've also yet to actually define Brotherhood as different from Sisterhood in any way other than one is male and the other female.
Or elaborated on where genderqueer folk would fit in.
Or, especially, what themes of masculinity are so vital to Marines that adding women would make them terrible.

Edit:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
I will be the first to advocate for sisters of battle to get more models, and different ranges with new themes. Give me more tactical sister models. Make a group based on Fenris. Give me more assassins. Give me more Sisters of Silence. Make rogue traders, and guardswomen.

Mind pointing me to the threads where you've advocated for this? You were the first, after all.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Here's what I'm reading. Women can have exclusionary fantasy. Black people can have exclusionary fantasy. But men can't have exclusionary fantasy because they are "priveledged" regardless of whether they're personal experience feels priveleged.

I feel like branding this as things that people 'can' and 'can't have is missing the point. Most western fantasy is already exclusionary fantasy for white men.

People who are under-represented in fantasy want to see more of themselves in fantasy. Because western fantasy has traditionally skewed towards white men, the way to tip the scales back towards the other direction is to create more focused fantasy that caters specifically to those under-represented groups. But that sort of thing is still very much a minority, and vastly overwhelmed by the volume of white male centric fantasy that still saturates the market, in part because parts of the market push back the moment anybody else gets any sort of representation.

When people feel more well represented in the mainstream, there won't be as much of a need for that sort of stuff you're branding as 'exclusionary'. But for that to happen, white men need to accept that there is room in fantasy for other people.

No one is arguing against more female representation. We are arguing against the homogenization and dilution of factions in a clumsy and ham-fisted way that alienates some of those who already feel attracted to them. You projecting your own feelings of inadequacy or oppression onto a fantasy sci-fi faction is not my problem and will not change how I feel about them.

If your argument for female space marines is "more representation" then the best thing to do is to increase female representation. The worst thing you can do to a franchise, in my opinion, is to fundamentally change, the model range, the culture, and the lore in order to appeal to a real world political or ideological demand from the outside. That very thing is exactly what is being expressed here.

I will be the first to advocate for sisters of battle to get more models, and different ranges with new themes. Give me more tactical sister models. Make a group based on Fenris. Give me more assassins. Give me more Sisters of Silence. Make rogue traders, and guardswomen.

Make a Mile Morales, and not a race swapped Spider Man. Everyone loves Miles Morales.

So you say you're not arguing against more representation for women, but you're also saying that women shouldn't be added to the single largest faction in the entire game.

You've also yet to actually define Brotherhood as different from Sisterhood in any way other than one is male and the other female.
Or elaborated on where genderqueer folk would fit in.
Or, especially, what themes of masculinity are so vital to Marines that adding women would make them terrible.

Your inability to empathize or imagine the way I enjoy, am attracted to, or engage with media isn't my problem and honestly I don't think I need to justify that.

A.T. wrote:
The elephant in the room of course, as others have pointed out is that GW has never been all that shy of changing their lore if they think it will make them money.

How many big time sisters players do we have here? Anyone purchase a couple of the hereticus battleforce sets? What about the new box set?


What killed female space marines originally wasn't representation, it was a simple lack of sales at a time when citadel were trying to push female models. Is anyone here not buying like it's 1986 ?

20 years ago, I would have bought plastic sisters. These days, I'm less keen on the aesthetic. I would buy sisters if they had an option for more practical armour. I'd buy female space marines in similarly practical armour... although the fact that if they do ever happen now, they'll be Primarisized makes that considerably less appealing than it would have been not so long ago.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Your inability to empathize or imagine the way I enjoy, am attracted to, or engage with media isn't my problem and honestly I don't think I need to justify that.

So, your ability to enjoy the media of space marines is literally tied to the absence of women in it, even if you never have to actually involve women in your own part of the experience?

You're literally, honestly saying that you NEED people to not get something for you to have fun?

You can't empathise with people who might want to enjoy the presence of women, or even feel that without female presence don't feel welcome to do so, but expect those people to empathise with your need to deprive them?

Most of this thread has been various versions of male privilege, where the default is male and the attempt at putting women in is seen as some kind of loss, but your position takes the cake.

If somehow the casual misogyny exclusion is integral to enjoying space marines, It would be trivial to say that the primaris process works on women but many chapters /chapter masters retain their entrenched view that only men should be astartes. So you can have male only chapters and others with women. But your view is that even if you aren't personally a collector of the Imperial Dragons chapter of marines that has women in it, just the mere KNOWLEDGE that such a chapter exists ruins your ability to enjoy your Chad Marines...

And the fobbing off of 'well you've got the girl faction go use them' is a well worn but pointless exercise, because it's the combination of what a space marine is, with the ability to represent yourself within them, that is important, not that there's a 'girl' faction or not - because let's not forget, sisters are not described as the emperor's angels, aren't considered the greatest fighers in the imperium, don't have any enhancements. But you're supposed to accept that the only faction you get is the one that is specifically worse than the power fantasy faction, because some boys can't play with toys if a girl touched them.


But hey, if girls need to stick to sisters, I'm more than happy for GW to have the ecclesiarchy steal primaris geneseed and roid out their sisters. I mean, they're not space marines or belong to marine chapters, so surely that's not an issue right? Sisters can now be a power fantasy without stepping on the toes of marines.

Or do you actually need women to never appear as powerful as capable as men in the setting in order for your enjoyment to be satiated?

A.T. wrote:
The elephant in the room of course, as others have pointed out is that GW has never been all that shy of changing their lore if they think it will make them money.

How many big time sisters players do we have here? Anyone purchase a couple of the hereticus battleforce sets? What about the new box set?

I really considered it. The Seraphim/ Exorcist box was PERFECT for me. I also considered all three Ordo Boxes. In the end, it was knowing that Krieg and Eldar were on the way that stopped me. I've really had to reduce my hobby budget. I'm going to want the new KT box, but I'm not sure I'll be able to afford it either. Selectively buying individual units to cover the most urgent gaps in 2-3 different armies is probably the only way I'm going to be able to spend for quite some time.

A.T. wrote:

What killed female space marines originally wasn't representation, it was a simple lack of sales at a time when citadel were trying to push female models. Is anyone here not buying like it's 1986 ?

While this is technically true, I think it may also be a tad disingenuous. I don't think anyone would argue that those models were good, and I don't think those models were ever given the same chance to catch on. They weren't good; they weren't promoted. There was one blister pack of them- they were never released as a squad, or part of a squad.

Much of what's popular is more a matter of promotion more than inherent differences in quality.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Your inability to empathize or imagine the way I enjoy, am attracted to, or engage with media isn't my problem and honestly I don't think I need to justify that.

So, your ability to enjoy the media of space marines is literally tied to the absence of women in it, even if you never have to actually involve women in your own part of the experience?

You're literally, honestly saying that you NEED people to not get something for you to have fun?

You can't empathise with people who might want to enjoy the presence of women, or even feel that without female presence don't feel welcome to do so, but expect those people to empathise with your need to deprive them?

Most of this thread has been various versions of male privilege, where the default is male and the attempt at putting women in is seen as some kind of loss, but your position takes the cake.

If somehow the casual misogyny exclusion is integral to enjoying space marines, It would be trivial to say that the primaris process works on women but many chapters /chapter masters retain their entrenched view that only men should be astartes. So you can have male only chapters and others with women. But your view is that even if you aren't personally a collector of the Imperial Dragons chapter of marines that has women in it, just the mere KNOWLEDGE that such a chapter exists ruins your ability to enjoy your Chad Marines...

And the fobbing off of 'well you've got the girl faction go use them' is a well worn but pointless exercise, because it's the combination of what a space marine is, with the ability to represent yourself within them, that is important, not that there's a 'girl' faction or not - because let's not forget, sisters are not described as the emperor's angels, aren't considered the greatest fighers in the imperium, don't have any enhancements. But you're supposed to accept that the only faction you get is the one that is specifically worse than the power fantasy faction, because some boys can't play with toys if a girl touched them.


But hey, if girls need to stick to sisters, I'm more than happy for GW to have the ecclesiarchy steal primaris geneseed and roid out their sisters. I mean, they're not space marines or belong to marine chapters, so surely that's not an issue right? Sisters can now be a power fantasy without stepping on the toes of marines.

Or do you actually need women to never appear as powerful as capable as men in the setting in order for your enjoyment to be satiated?

That's probably the best way of integrating "female space marines" without impacting the current culture, interpersonal dynamic, and call back to the monastic orders of old that make space marines what they are.

I'm not going to be 100% happy about lore changes that are done that way. Heck, I'm still not happy with the primaris geneseed lore. I still think it should have just been a new mark of armor instead.

But I am really tired of people coming in and saying "Female space marines or bust, and if you disagree with me you're sexist".

A.T. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think that Orks would be a genuinely fascinating exploration of masculine hegemony, and that if any faction should be the "male" faction, it's Orks!

Kind of feels insincere when you pick the race of brain damaged, howling, plague on every world they encounter football 'ooligans as your fascinating exploration of men.

Kinda feels insincere when half ya'll keep trying to pick the faction of BDSM skimp-dressed nuns that are used as TP for SM as your fascinating exploration of women.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
That's probably the best way of integrating "female space marines" without impacting the current culture, interpersonal dynamic, and call back to the monastic orders of old that make space marines what they are.

That's fair, I suppose. Adding women to a group modelled off the monastic orders of old would be like, say, making them genetically enhanced warriors in high tech armour who spit acid, absorb the knowledge of their enemies by eating their brains and put themselves into suspended animation at will... That would totally destroy my immersion in the faction.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
That's probably the best way of integrating "female space marines" without impacting the current culture, interpersonal dynamic, and call back to the monastic orders of old that make space marines what they are.

That's fair, I suppose. Adding women to a group modelled off the monastic orders of old would be like, say, making them genetically enhanced warriors in high tech armour who spit acid, absorb the knowledge of their enemies by eating their brains and put themselves into suspended animation at will... That would totally destroy my immersion in the faction.

The Teutonic order, and the broader catholic church, were famous for their gender inclusivity, you're 100% correct. Removing that inclusivity would completely destroy the theme of a faction based on that history and their broader hierarchy.

Liking a faction in a fantasy sci fi miniatures game for its adherence to a theme doesn't make someone sexist lol. People are tired of being brow beaten by sanctimonious arguments that continually bring their real world politics into a fantasy game.

The Vikings were well known to be Catholic.
As were vampire angels.

Not to mention, Marines are generally not religious. There are exceptions (Black Templars) but they’re loosely based on anything at best.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Vikings were well known to be Catholic.
As were vampire angels.

Not to mention, Marines are generally not religious. There are exceptions (Black Templars) but they’re loosely based on anything at best.

Actually the Vikings all converted to Catholicism eventually. Pivotal to this was Harald Bluetooth and defeat of Guthrum at the Battle of Eddington and the resulting treaty of Wedmore.

And here is a great exploration of the knightly arms and armor and inspiration therein that the space marines can embody.

and that's just visual. I'm sure you know about how the catholic church orchestrated its hierarchies, and monastic orders. There obviously aren't any parallels there at all.

This thread has been a deep dive into exactly why my stance is "grow up or get out till you do". The very fabric of the argument is woven with exclusively the threads of sexism, gatekeeping, and a refusal to empathize with people who are (at most) marginally different from each other (gender? seriously?). Those tendencies? They don't stop at "no women SM." The whole FSM "debate" is nothing but a litmus test for who's actually worth engaging with.

Playing a 4+ hour game with someone who can not or will not treat other people with basic respect is an awful experience, and one of the bigger reasons our hobby has it's god-awful reputation. Those that define themselves or their hobby by "no women allowed" are either uninformed on why FSM is a stupid "debate", or aren't going to be fun to talk or play the hobby with. A ten minute conversation in person (or a handful of thread posts) will tell you which you are working with. I've personally added something like 8-10 people who are clearly exhibiting one or more of the above toxic traits in this thread to my block list.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
The Teutonic order, and the broader catholic church, were famous for their gender inclusivity, you're 100% correct. Removing that inclusivity would completely destroy the theme of a faction based on that history and their broader hierarchy.

Were they famous for their Vikings? Vampires? Werewolves? Mutants wreathed in otherworldly flames? Dressing up in vaguely roman style armour and ruling relatively benevolently while the rest of the galaxy went to pot?

I do know that half of the Teutonic Order famously went renegade and turned into freakish mutants who live in a portal to another dimension, but I wasn't so sure about those other things.

Liking a faction in a fantasy sci fi miniatures game for its adherence to a theme doesn't make someone sexist lol. People are tired of being brow beaten by sanctimonious arguments that continually bring their real world politics into a fantasy game.

I don't recall having called you sexist. I've tried to get you to consider what it is about your all male faction that would actually be different if there were girls allowed in, and you don't seem able to answer beyond insisting that it would be different.

And the above is intended to illustrate that basing a fictional faction on historical roots doesn't mean that those roots need to be rigidly adhered to. It's an inspiration, not a template. Space Marines are loosely based off monastic orders, but with some key differences... not least being that they're mostly not actually religious.

And if you can accept that a group can be loosely based on monks without being religious, why exactly is it that having women join in is a bridge too far?

 insaniak wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
The Teutonic order, and the broader catholic church, were famous for their gender inclusivity, you're 100% correct. Removing that inclusivity would completely destroy the theme of a faction based on that history and their broader hierarchy.

Were they famous for their Vikings? Vampires? Werewolves? Mutants wreathed in otherworldly flames? Dressing up in vaguely roman style armour and ruling relatively benevolently while the rest of the galaxy went to pot?

I do know that half of the Teutonic Order famously went renegade and turned into freakish mutants who live in a portal to another dimension, but I wasn't so sure about those other things.

Don't forget about the two other groups of that order that were so bad, we erased all mention of them from the history books.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
The Teutonic order, and the broader catholic church, were famous for their gender inclusivity, you're 100% correct. Removing that inclusivity would completely destroy the theme of a faction based on that history and their broader hierarchy.

Were they famous for their Vikings? Vampires? Werewolves? Mutants wreathed in otherworldly flames? Dressing up in vaguely roman style armour and ruling relatively benevolently while the rest of the galaxy went to pot?

I do know that half of the Teutonic Order famously went renegade and turned into freakish mutants who live in a portal to another dimension, but I wasn't so sure about those other things.

Well vikings absolutely did exist within the context of the catholic world. Cnute the great was famously Catholic as was Harald Hadrada. Many of the Varangian guard in Constantinople converted leading to the greater conversion of the Kievian Rus.

Vampires are famously catholic in their themes. Vlad Tepesh himself is said to have sold his soul to the devil in an attempt to to gain immortality. In fact Dracul means devil in Romanian and the cross is almost always associated with helping to ward off vampires.

The Teutonic order did eventually turn into heretics when the grand master Albert the 1st converted to Protestantism, secularized the order and reordered it into Prussia.....

Famously the Knights Templar were declared heretics by the French king and all were ordered to be burned at the stake.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Well vikings absolutely did exist within the context of the catholic world. Cnute the great was famously Catholic as was Harald Hadrada. Many of the Varangian guard in Constantinople converted leading to the greater conversion of the Kievian Rus.

Vampires are famously catholic in their themes. Vlad Tepesh himself is said to have sold his soul to the devil in an attempt to to gain immortality. In fact Dracul means devil in Romanian and the cross is almost always associated with helping to ward off vampires.

So... if we're loosening the criteria for Space Marines from 'Monks' to 'Existed in the Catholic world' it would seem that women should be fine.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Well vikings absolutely did exist within the context of the catholic world. Cnute the great was famously Catholic as was Harald Hadrada. Many of the Varangian guard in Constantinople converted leading to the greater conversion of the Kievian Rus.

Vampires are famously catholic in their themes. Vlad Tepesh himself is said to have sold his soul to the devil in an attempt to to gain immortality. In fact Dracul means devil in Romanian and the cross is almost always associated with helping to ward off vampires.

So... if we're loosening the criteria for Space Marines from 'Monks' to 'Existed in the Catholic world' it would seem that women should be fine.

You do realize the space wolves are basically the Varangian guard? Whose entire purpose for being was that as foreigners they would more readily squash internal resistance. Sounds like the emperors wolves burning prospero, right?

Oh yeah and they also existed under an imperial system of religious and political control. The very same government where the double headed eagle comes from. You know the one that represents both heads of religion and politics under one body?

 Sledgehammer wrote:
You do realize the space wolves are basically the Varangian guard?

Can't be. I'm told that Space Marines are modelled exclusively off catholic monks.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
You do realize the space wolves are basically the Varangian guard?

Can't be. I'm told that Space Marines are modelled exclusively off catholic monks.

The Varangian Guard, and the Byzantine emperors were very famous for their inclusion of front line shield maidens. It was a perfect fit for the religious and political system under which the emperor derived his authority.




The Imperium is backwards and old fashioned and space marines help to emphasize that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:I think fantasy or works of fiction should be free to explore their themes as they see fit, and companies should be free to market their materials or choose their target demographics as they see fit.

And likewise, people should be free to criticise and point out where those themes don't match the vibe they're trying to portray, and the market should be free to complain when their primary product is needlessly exclusionary.

Critique away. I am 1000% for your right to say whatever you want about it. I just prefer it be polite and in good faith.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Frankly, Space Marines being all male does not explore any worthwhile themes that other factions also can't explore, and pandering to certain demographics is not always a good thing from an ethic standpoint.

You are welcome to your opinion. I disagree.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not suggesting that 40k is, but for the sake of your argument - do you think is it ethical or justifiable for a company to market their materials to an audience of eugenicists or flat earthers or misogynists? Or is there a limit on which an company should cater to certain audiences?

I tend towards the very permissive when it comes to expression or products. I myself have lots of music which is pretty spicy in a all sorts of directions, including against "whitey". I accept that this is an aspect of living in a complex, nonhomogeneous society, and I'm proud to be a part of it. These products/artworks allow me to explore spaces or thoughts that aren't familiar to me, and it's a wonderful thing to get a feel for a perspective that isn't my own, even if it's hostile to me. When it comes to fiction and fantasy, rule 34 comes to mind. If you can think of it, there's p*rn for it, and that's fine by me. It follows for other forms of fantasy or ideologies too. I'm open to people having the freedom to explore whatever they want to explore. There's very little I would ban, the obvious target being cp.

The modern problem is that of misinformation, which we as a society have to figure out more effective ways of dealing with. The greatness of the internet is that people with niche interests can find each other and mingle (yay furry conventions?), the downside of course is the spread of conspiracy theories or just bad data. I don't know how to combat that, but it seems to me to be one of the most pressing issues of our time. Well, that and trends of wealth inequality. . .

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

insaniak wrote:When people feel more well represented in the mainstream, there won't be as much of a need for that sort of stuff you're branding as 'exclusionary'. But for that to happen, white men need to accept that there is room in fantasy for other people.

Precisely.

There is sooo much room for fantasy for non-white men. 50 Shades of Gray and Barbie made piles of money. Hip Hop has taken over the entire world and made globally recognized icons. Anime and K-pop are huge. Whole genres of art and products exist that cater to not-my-demographic. I understand full well that when I was brought up in the 80's and 90's this was very much not the case, but it ain't the 90's anymore. Production has only become more democratized over that time, many of the old gatekeepers have become irrelevant, and lots of players have figured out that targeting non-traditional demographics can pay dividends (like when Subaru stealthily targeted lesbians back in the day).

It just so happens that within that landscape, boys/men are still a demographic.


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 insaniak wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Liking a faction in a fantasy sci fi miniatures game for its adherence to a theme doesn't make someone sexist lol. People are tired of being brow beaten by sanctimonious arguments that continually bring their real world politics into a fantasy game.

I don't recall having called you sexist.

That language has been used, even if you didn't use it yourself.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Well vikings absolutely did exist within the context of the catholic world. Cnute the great was famously Catholic as was Harald Hadrada. Many of the Varangian guard in Constantinople converted leading to the greater conversion of the Kievian Rus.

Vampires are famously catholic in their themes. Vlad Tepesh himself is said to have sold his soul to the devil in an attempt to to gain immortality. In fact Dracul means devil in Romanian and the cross is almost always associated with helping to ward off vampires.

So... if we're loosening the criteria for Space Marines from 'Monks' to 'Existed in the Catholic world' it would seem that women should be fine.

You do realize the space wolves are basically the Varangian guard? Whose entire purpose for being was that as foreigners they would more readily squash internal resistance. Sounds like the emperors wolves burning prospero, right?

Oh yeah and they also existed under an imperial system of religious and political control. The very same government where the double headed eagle comes from. You know the one that represents both heads of religion and politics under one body?

I think this is making spurious connections after the event, and is crediting GW with a hell of a lot more thought than I think they ever actually put in in the first place. Think less like a history professor and more like a 12-year-old. You know what would be cool? Viking space marines! Or... or... how about Vampire space marines?