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I can deal with fixed 10-man squads. I usually did that anyway.

I'm actually quite miffed that they didn't include any transports other than the Corvus Blackstar.

They could have at least thrown the Rhino and Land Raider in there.


Overall though, way better than the Agents codex, and the removal of "Long Vigil weapons" makes me happy. The only thing other thing that makes me sad is no more 4-frag cannon squads. I used to live by those in 7th and 8th, with 4x4 squads of them.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I can deal with fixed 10-man squads. I usually did that anyway.

I'm actually quite miffed that they didn't include any transports other than the Corvus Blackstar.

They could have at least thrown the Rhino and Land Raider in there.


Overall though, way better than the Agents codex, and the removal of "Long Vigil weapons" makes me happy. The only thing other thing that makes me sad is no more 4-frag cannon squads. I used to live by those in 7th and 8th, with 4x4 squads of them.

Can’t they take everything that’s in the main SM book that’s not explicitly called out as not allowed?

 Nevelon wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I can deal with fixed 10-man squads. I usually did that anyway.

I'm actually quite miffed that they didn't include any transports other than the Corvus Blackstar.

They could have at least thrown the Rhino and Land Raider in there.


Overall though, way better than the Agents codex, and the removal of "Long Vigil weapons" makes me happy. The only thing other thing that makes me sad is no more 4-frag cannon squads. I used to live by those in 7th and 8th, with 4x4 squads of them.

Can’t they take everything that’s in the main SM book that’s not explicitly called out as not allowed?

Whoops. Forgot that. LOL. Okay, problem solved.

Im sorry, but this Deathwatch detachment is damn good.
Did you see all the basic weapon increases? Is that going to happen to all marines?
S5 bolt weapons with an increase in AP by 1.
Indomitor kill team is actually bananas.
Terminator squad is 180pts but can take 3 cyclones.

My guess is this is a precursor to the marine bonus we are expecting.

The 10 man squads are expensive, but bring a lot of goodness. Hard part is lack of access to cheaper scoring units. No scouts so need to rely on small squads to score.

I'd be inclined to say those stat changes will not be rolled out to other Marine factions. They explicitly name them as Deathwatch variants in the weapon profiles

 bullyboy wrote:
Im sorry, but this Deathwatch detachment is damn good.
Did you see all the basic weapon increases? Is that going to happen to all marines?
S5 bolt weapons with an increase in AP by 1.
Indomitor kill team is actually bananas.
Terminator squad is 180pts but can take 3 cyclones.

My guess is this is a precursor to the marine bonus we are expecting.

The 10 man squads are expensive, but bring a lot of goodness. Hard part is lack of access to cheaper scoring units. No scouts so need to rely on small squads to score.

Yeah I tend to agree - it is really quite good. The problem is though, I don't think anyone anywhere will bother playing either the spectrus or fortis killteams at fixed 10 man unit sizes, but as 5 man units they would be great (even though they would lock themselves out of a lot of upgrades, they would have enough utility to be useful at scoring).

EDIT: Answered my own question.

Mixed feelings on this detachment.

The good:
- I LOVE the mixed squads, and that's a great return.
- Terminators having more special weapon options (and access to things like plasma cannons) is a nice touch.
- The site-to-site teleport strat is very fun looking.
- I'm more than happy with the way units are split up (ie, by armour configuration).
- No issue with how the basic Kill Team is split up when it comes to weapons (though I'd like if the xenophase blade and combi weapon could be given to any squad member, and that the stalker bolter could also be taken alongside a power weapon or shield).

The mixed:
- I'd have liked if Suppressors could be taken in the Talonstrike team.
- I'd have liked if Bladeguard Veterans could be taken in the Fortis team.

The bad:
- Fixed ten model squads *sucks*. When I saw they could be taken in as little as 3 person squads, I was very pleased. Then I saw that you're not really even meant to take them in squads of 5. Not very good at all. I'd have preferred if it started at 5 (so, you *could* take them with a generic single box, or you could split your models out and still have small teams), with an optional 10. Definitely something I'd be houseruling.
- The profile of the bolters in the kill team squad sadden me greatly, and is a general trend of my feelings towards Deathwatch bolt weapons in general. While I'm normally lenient on things like "special limited ammo" being a stratagem situation, for Deathwatch, I think it's entirely wrong. Not to mention just making not a lot of sense: plasma incinerators can benefit from hellfire shells? Huh?? I'm not massively a fan of some bolt weapons going up to S5 and +1AP, and would instead prefer what I suggest below:
- I would have rather seen the Deathwatch detachment rule not be mission tactics, and be Special Issue Ammo instead, and have the (amended and modified) Mission Tactics be the stratagems instead. Something like the detachment rule be:

Whenever a Kill Team unit is selected to shoot, they may choose which Special Issue Ammunition to use. This applies until every model in the unit has resolved its attacks.
- Hellfire Rounds: BOLT weapons in this unit have Anti-Infantry 2+ and Anti-Monster 5+.
- Krakenfire Rounds: BOLT weapons in this unit improve their Armour Penetration by 1, and improve their range characteristic by 6".
- Dragonfire Rounds: BOLT weapons in this unit gain the Assault and Ignores Cover abilities.
- (optional) Metal Storm Rounds: BOLT weapons in this unit gain Sustained Hits 1 (or a improved by 1, if it already had Sustained Hits), and reduce the Armour Penetration by 1.

A BOLT weapon is any weapon which has bolt in the name, ie. bolt rifle, heavy bolt rifle, assault bolter, boltstorm gauntlets, bolt sniper rifle, etc. This does not include the heavy flamer profile of the infernus heavy bolter, but does include the Vigil Spear.

The controversial:
- I think that a Deathwatch army should only be composed of these units, PLUS a few exceptions.
- Having things like Librarians, Apothecaries, Techmarines and such is fine and good.
- Deathwatch vehicles should be limited to the Corvus, Dreadnoughts/Invictor Warsuit, Rhino/Razorback, Land Raiders, Repulsors/Impulsors, and Drop Pods. The more typical Space Marine battle tanks (Predator/Vindicator/Whirlwind, etc) shouldn't be available.
- Deathwatch shouldn't have access to generic squads (ie, Intercessors, Hellblasters, Infiltrators, etc.). If you want squads, you need to take Kill Teams, because that's the whole thing about Deathwatch: which is why I'd want Suppressors to be attached to Talonstrike teams, and Bladeguard Veterans attached to Fortis teams.

I recognise that might be a controversial take, but honestly, that fits "Deathwatch" better in my head than just taking normal squads with black armour and a silver arm. You play Deathwatch, you play with Kill Teams (again, with the caveat that Kill Teams can be taken in 3s or 5s, instead of only 10s.)

RIP the WYSIWYG equipment of about 90% of my Deathwatch.

Oh well, it's been obvious that they're a dead army walking for years now anyway.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
RIP the WYSIWYG equipment of about 90% of my Deathwatch.

Oh well, it's been obvious that they're a dead army walking for years now anyway.

Yeah, I have a unit of 10 plasmagunners. I guess I can proxy them as Hellblasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just looking at the numbers on the Fortis Kill team. A unit of 4 Intercessors, 4 Hellblasters, and 2 Desolators would be 236 points, if taken from their respective units. A Fortis team is only 200. Yes, you don't get the option of a plasma pistol on on of the Hellblasters, but that's really all you miss out on. Bonus: st 5 on Intercessors' guns. When you throw in the grenade launchers on the Intercessors that's a unit that has A LOT of dakka and can be annoying for infantry and light vehicles alike. With a power fist on the sergeant they aren't totally helpless in combat either.

Yeah, I’m planning a fortis kill team with 4 hellblasters , 2 desolation marines and Intercessors in a repulsor. Think it will be a decent mobile fire base unit. May even consider a drop pod for them.
A regular vet kill team led by watchmaster in rhino.
Deepstriling Indomitor team
Infiltrators for home base, and then Reivers and a couple ATVs in reserve for scoring
Support coming from lancer and redemptor

This detachment seem pretty fun to run even without the Killteams. There's plenty of units that love free lethal or sustained per turn.

The Assassination Force detachment seems REALLY fun, and might well be better than anything in the actual Codex!

The Vindicare's Ehancement is super fun:
Micromelta Rounds [45 pts] – The Vindicare’s Exitus Rifle gains ANTI-MONSTER 4+ and ANTI-VEHICLE 4+.

There are some cool strategems too:
Orbital Oversight (Strategic Ploy, 1 CP) – Used in your opponent’s shooting phase just after they’ve selected targets, make an Agents of the Imperium Infantry unit untargetable outside of 18”, or if they have the Lone Operative ability they cannot be targeted outside of 6”.

But

While these guys could be used in smaller games (all 4 assassin is come to 585 points), I think this is more of "fun" detachment.

I'm liking the idea of a Custodes Dreadnought Warlord. Telemon in charge!

Custodes detachment is neat, but i don't have enough dreadnoughts to make good use of it. certainly appreciate it existing, at least

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
Custodes detachment is neat, but i don't have enough dreadnoughts to make good use of it. certainly appreciate it existing, at least

Now I have to figure out if I can wiggle this into Crusade.

Now this is a Custodes Warlord:


Telemon Heavy Dreadnought
2x Telemon Caestus
Character
Warlord
Augury Uplink

Plus the detachment rule, this would be awesomeness personified.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Now this is a Custodes Warlord:


Telemon Heavy Dreadnought
2x Telemon Caestus
Character
Warlord
Augury Uplink

Plus the detachment rule, this would be awesomeness personified.

I'm already thinking about whether or not to do it for our upcoming Crusade league.

March of the Dreadnoughts, anyone?

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Now this is a Custodes Warlord:


Telemon Heavy Dreadnought
2x Telemon Caestus
Character
Warlord
Augury Uplink

Plus the detachment rule, this would be awesomeness personified.

I'm already thinking about whether or not to do it for our upcoming Crusade league.

Please. I'd love to know how this works...

Goonhammer posted this list;

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Now this is a Custodes Warlord:


Telemon Heavy Dreadnought
2x Telemon Caestus
Character
Warlord
Augury Uplink

Plus the detachment rule, this would be awesomeness personified.

I'm already thinking about whether or not to do it for our upcoming Crusade league.

Please. I'd love to know how this works...

Our league organizer ruled that I could give a Dreadnought an enhancement, but unless I'm running the Solar Spearhead the enhancement is 'turned off'.

And I also came up with the same all-bot list as Goonhammer.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/9sn7qfxn/grotmas-calendar-day-9-silent-knights-unholy-knights

Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights...

Is this worth losing FNP for allies?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/9sn7qfxn/grotmas-calendar-day-9-silent-knights-unholy-knights

Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights...

Is this worth losing FNP for allies?

It's probably a great deal for Chaos Knights, since the default detachment ability just makes anyone below starting strength test for Battleshock.

Are you going to build a list around the grotmas changes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Knights tomorrow!

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
This detachment seem pretty fun to run even without the Killteams. There's plenty of units that love free lethal or sustained per turn.

Only the Kill Teams get Mission Tactics for free. The bit up above the individual tactics options says that they only apply to units with the Mission Tactics ability that is next to Oath on the datasheets in the index. You can pay a CP for it, but most of the time you probably want to keep Sustained on two kill teams anyway. Literally no one is going to play this correctly.

Overall the Deathwatch index is far better than I expected and legitimately pretty exciting. The Kill Team reworks are all a lot smarter than what we had at the start of 10th and work quite well with the detachment. The big drawback is definitely the lack of cheap units that can run objectives. Reivers may actually see play for this which is mildly horrifying. There's a lot of fun and powerful synergies here and I'm excited to give it a try.

In terms of the detachment, its mostly the same, but limited the ammo to KTs mostly fixes the early issues with it without making it useless on bolters. Two uses for free a turn will keep them in rotation. Adaptive Tactics and Sight to Sight are both nuts though and absolutely definite the army. The enhancements are all worth taking except Ossius but hard to budget.

The KT updates are mostly solid. The new Fortis has a poor ability but is at least no longer a confused nightmare of nonfunctional loadouts. I'm not sure its good with no real melee presence and a mix of profile roles, but its cheap and efficient and might be worth it on that alone. Teminators are the best Terminators and probably a sign that generic terminators are getting a price cut. Indomintor is really strong. Strong ability, crazy bolter profiles and combines extremely well with SIA. Talonstrike has similar things going for it and the two will likely define the list. Phobos is probably the dud and easily the one that would have shined as a 5 man.

Overall, extremely happy with this. Will I remain happy post dataslate? Probably not? Still, its way way more effort than I expected.

Are you going to build a Deathwatch force using this update?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Are you going to build a Deathwatch force using this update?

I'm definitely going to test out a list or 3. Deathwatch has been my primary faction since they released in 7th and I've got a pretty huge collection of them ready to go.

Have you made primaris versions of Artemis or the Watch Master?

I really like the Chaos Knight detachment. I always thought that Chaos Knights should be able to use cultists as cultists usually appear around Knights. It is cool that they can use all of the damned units, as well. As the Chaos Knight detachment rule is garbage, I think this is worth a try. Losing some of the strats hurts, but I think worth it for the [Sustained] hits for sacrificing some cultists.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Have you made primaris versions of Artemis or the Watch Master?

Nope, I've just got the original models. Mostly just done the work to get the shoulder pads on the primaris stuff.