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Breton wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

If you want THAT kind of variety. And Khorne isn't always melee - they still have Tanks, the Lord of Skulls, and so forth - short range shooters wouldn't be out of line.

And, if you're not opposed to Legends, you've got plenty of decent long range firepower available.
I like my melee supported by a nice mix of 30k armor: Spartans, Sicaran Venators, & sometimes a Typhon. + a few Termites* for my bezerkers/Jackie's to ride about in.
Khorne isn't particular about how you separate your foes from their blood/skulls...Skulls.... just that you do.

*in our last Crusade I got one of my Termites elevated to Legendary status xp wise.
We knew early on when it scored 5! Unit kills in one game that it was destined for greatness.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Look, if you want variety, Khorne is not for you.

of course there's variety. WE have eightbound, who are the heavy brutes. demons, in that role, have cavalry. plus the bloodthirster, so there's another option in the super-heavy slot. the gameplan is still run forward and hit things, but you have different units, and different unit combinations, to work with. a third core infantry to join zerkers and cultists is another thing that will grant lists new options

WE is so small and devoid of variety that people managed to mathematically perfect a list earlier this edition. more options, even if the gameplan remains exactly the same

You get blood AND skulls, what more could you want?

 Overread wrote:
Eh I think its more that GW took a fantasy army and put them in 40K and then never really updated their visual design language/added any new models in a very very very long time.

We have demons with guns - they are all over the place. Furthermore there's no reason that demons can't pick up a bow and arrow or a musket or a cannon etc... Things that are also around in the fantasy setting.


It's also the style of miniature. Even for close combat the offerings feel odd at times - I bring up the Slaanesh Chariot often because its awesome for fantasy you can see it mowing its way through the rank and file; as soon as it hits Tau battlesuits and Space Marines though it doesn't quite visually work. Sure great against swarms of Termagaunts and Imperial Guard - but other stuff not so much.


Again I think the greater issue is that they were fantasy armies transposed into 40K and then never given any new design language/options. Possibly because of some mandate that all the mdoels had to be cross game compatible so they just went for a lot of close combat/magic units that work in both games without messing up the visual language of either game.

With the separate codex per demon faction and with GW being even more militant with their internal division of game departments I could see it being a time where demons would start to get game specific models between AoS and 40K. And in my view that works great for both games - it gives something with just that touch of looking unique.

We already have models like the Demon Prince which can have a gun and sword look to them - so extending that out to more models would be great to see

I would love to see more shooting daemons in 40k to complement the traditional ones, similar to what we see in the Doom games.

Well, it seems that the slaanesh daemons in EC codex are without all of their chariots and heralds, including several named characters. Putting the four monotheist CSM units into the four monotheist indexes has stopped my Word Bearers bothering with trying to get them to work. If my daemons get spread across four monotheist codices with half the range absent, I’m out. GW’s business model is increasingly resembling a crypto rug pull - half the goblin units I’ve painted this past years are absent from the GSG book. My FLGS says there’s literally no school agers buying warhammer, it now exists to scam whales and to hell with recruiting new generations of customers.

The poor showing of daemons in the EC codex gives me hope that there will still be a proper daemons codex in the future.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
The poor showing of daemons in the EC codex gives me hope that there will still be a proper daemons codex in the future.

Given it looks like the limited selection for Dark Eldar Ynnari in the new eldar codex, it seems likely that a proper daemon codex will exist.

Unless GW decide for some reason to remove whole lines of plastic kits for daemons for some reason - but only in 40k.

 Hellebore wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
The poor showing of daemons in the EC codex gives me hope that there will still be a proper daemons codex in the future.

Given it looks like the limited selection for Dark Eldar Ynnari in the new eldar codex, it seems likely that a proper daemon codex will exist.

Unless GW decide for some reason to remove whole lines of plastic kits for daemons for some reason - but only in 40k.

It wouldn't be without precedent. The Twins, for example, are only in Age of Sigmar. And they finally yoinked the Soul Grinder OUT of their fantasy setting.

I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least. It's possible they're planning something for 11th but it seems like the vast majority of stuff cut is online only. Seems like they might just be looking to cut Daemons WAY back in 40k.

Maybe or perhaps they are going back to the old days of not every army getting a new codex in an edition because 3 years really isn't much time at all to update every single army every single edition over and over and its starting to break down for GW

 Overread wrote:
Maybe or perhaps they are going back to the old days of not every army getting a new codex in an edition because 3 years really isn't much time at all to update every single army every single edition over and over and its starting to break down for GW

I'd be happy with little index updates and not a giant codex overhaul. IK did alright with no codex in this edition.

 Overread wrote:
Maybe or perhaps they are going back to the old days of not every army getting a new codex in an edition because 3 years really isn't much time at all to update every single army every single edition over and over and its starting to break down for GW

I just don't think GW is interested in undivided daemons as an army. We've really moved towards a stronger army branding and core model line for each faction built mostly around newer sculpts. Now that there's a dedicated line for the 4 main Legions that represent the various gods, I can see them wanting to focus on curating that as the main identity for the god branding much like they've done in Sigmar.

Honestly whilst its a huge blow to existing demon fans and such I could welcome GW giving Slaanesh and other Demon armies more of a sci-fi focus and more unique models separate from AoS

Even as a big slaanesh fan I've always found things like the chariots really odd in 40K as a concept. Because once you basically leave mowing down Imperial Guard or Tyranid Gaunts they just don't feel like they fit a futuristic setting even as demonic warp infused models.

Chariots being gone seems fairly obvious. I'm a little more surprised by some of the newer characters that got cut, but I can see wanting to keep the Epic Heroes to Sigmar and lean into the hordes of monsters angle for daemons. Slaanesh was always going to be sparse so I'm more curious to see what happens to the more established branches of Chaos.

 LunarSol wrote:
Chariots being gone seems fairly obvious. I'm a little more surprised by some of the newer characters that got cut, but I can see wanting to keep the Epic Heroes to Sigmar and lean into the hordes of monsters angle for daemons. Slaanesh was always going to be sparse so I'm more curious to see what happens to the more established branches of Chaos.

I think its likely just more of separating the narration and story of Slaanesh and creating more gaps in the line to then fill in later with their own unique demon models. Heck perhaps we'll even see core models like Demonettes get their own 40K and AoS update models in the future.

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

Yeah, I've been looking for it and not finding it. A few of the locals remember it too and I'm curious if its something implied during the video or something.

I do wish they'd not put important bits in the videos that don't make it into the written article - not saying that's happened here, but it is annoying when it does happen.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

Yeah, I've been looking for it and not finding it. A few of the locals remember it too and I'm curious if its something implied during the video or something.

The Mandela Effect in action?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

Yeah, I've been looking for it and not finding it. A few of the locals remember it too and I'm curious if its something implied during the video or something.

The Mandela Effect in action?

I'm sure I heard it was the Mandala Affect... >->


It would be crazy to see them drop daemon units entirely from the army while they're still for sale. There's nothing wrong with having chariots et al in the army. It seems very odd. Unless they're planning an entire revamp and 40k-ifying units in some way - but it's not like a chariot is out of place in the 40k universe with its cavalry etc... Daemon bikers, daemon gun monsters or something?

 Hellebore wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought during Grotsmas they stated that they wouldn't be getting a codex in 10th at least.

[Citation required]

Yeah, I've been looking for it and not finding it. A few of the locals remember it too and I'm curious if its something implied during the video or something.

The Mandela Effect in action?

I'm sure I heard it was the Mandala Affect... >->


It would be crazy to see them drop daemon units entirely from the army while they're still for sale. There's nothing wrong with having chariots et al in the army. It seems very odd. Unless they're planning an entire revamp and 40k-ifying units in some way - but it's not like a chariot is out of place in the 40k universe with its cavalry etc... Daemon bikers, daemon gun monsters or something?

Chariots aren't REALLY for sale anymore. They're webstore exclusive and out of stock on the webstore.

That's a reach, LunarSol, and you know it - many units are both "Online only" and "Temporarily out of stock" on the GW store.

Chaos demons should be part of each god army. Endogamy is good.

 Dysartes wrote:
That's a reach, LunarSol, and you know it - many units are both "Online only" and "Temporarily out of stock" on the GW store.

It's not really. It's how GW has been removing things. The ability to buy them on the store dries up, then they don't appear in a codex, and then they go away. If it was online only and in the codex I would expect it to return. When its not in the codex, I have my doubts. Even when it IS, I'm not going to be surprised to learn there's a resculpt in the pipeline.

Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

I'm afraid that the 40k maxim: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment," is the go to response for this... but I don't understand why GW wouldn't have a chaos daemon codex... it has a built in fan base, a chunk of models to sell, and typically plays different than most other armies.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
That's a reach, LunarSol, and you know it - many units are both "Online only" and "Temporarily out of stock" on the GW store.

It's not really. It's how GW has been removing things. The ability to buy them on the store dries up, then they don't appear in a codex, and then they go away. If it was online only and in the codex I would expect it to return. When its not in the codex, I have my doubts. Even when it IS, I'm not going to be surprised to learn there's a resculpt in the pipeline.

Normally I'd agree with this statement, but supply has been out of stock on the web store for several months for several kits for all armies - kits that are current in new codex releases etc.

I don't know how much longer the supply and manufacturing issues in general will last for GW. It's copium I know but until stock stabilises in general I'm not going to count daemons out just yet

 BorderCountess wrote:
Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

Slaanesh was always going to be a weird first book to get a read on this. They don't have a lot of stuff and the stuff they have is very Old World designed. They've needed a revamp for a while and its just been a matter of deciding what to do with the thorny subject matter. I think we'll have a better idea what's ahead when we see what happens with the gods that have seen more modern updates.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
Having a handful of datasheets built into the codex for the one detachment that allows 50% demons, and having the full index to allow for 25% demons for all others aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I realize it's probably an unhealthy dose of hopium, but it's possible that both will exist at the same time.

I'm afraid that the 40k maxim: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment," is the go to response for this... but I don't understand why GW wouldn't have a chaos daemon codex... it has a built in fan base, a chunk of models to sell, and typically plays different than most other armies.

Honestly, daemons as a standalone faction have always felt odd to me, and I say that as someone with a small daemon army.

For the longest time, most of each god's units were just slightly faster or beefier variations on the basic troop, all with similar special rules. Daemonettes, seekers, and fiends were basically all just Rending attack delivery systems, usually with a neat rule on fiends. And then everyone had soul grinders and their greater daemons. There's a little more variety now, but monogod armies still seem pretty limited on variety.

And multi-god armies run into lore issues. If all the gods cooperating in one place is a coordinated event, then it's an extremely rare sort of event that we don't see often in the lore. It's like having an entire faction/codex representing a time that a few marine chapters teamed up. And if it's meant to represent a random warp incursion, then it's harder to justify having your same characters be present in each battle which makes it tougher to write ongoing lore for your army's characters. That was arguably compounded back when daemonic gifts were random (can't model iron skin or a special melee weapon if you don't know you're going to have it) and by 10th's general lack of customization.

So it feels like daemons have kind of struggled as a faction over the years. If you want to lean into a monogod theme, they really feel like they're missing the tools and variety from their mortal buddies. Plus you miss out on having cultist Steve explode and turn into a portal for daemons in reserves to walk through. If you want to play multi-god, you're still weirdly short on tools but also you're probably going to end up either playing an arguably unfluffy monster mash or else spamming personality-less mooks and generally feeling like an NPC faction.

I guess my first concern is that, if Emperor's Children is representative of what we can expect for demons, then it means that all-demon armies (even mono-god) are no longer possible. Then there's idea of what happens to demonic allies in other Chaos armies, CSM and Chaos Knights.

I imagine we'll get answers next weekend.