Insectum7 wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
All this talk of busting through brick walls has made me wonder how strong the Kool-Aid Man truly is.

And the Kool-Aid man is an animated glass pitcher, so how does he not smash himself in the process?

Probably a powerfield similar to powerfist. Crossover confirmed.

Here's the math/reasoning for Operation: Kool-Aid

Spoiler:

How Strong Would He Need to Be?

Imagine the Kool-Aid Man as a large glass pitcher filled with delicious red Kool-Aid. This perspective actually refines our thought experiment, because now we have two distinct components to consider: the glass pitcher (the container) and the liquid inside.charging at a building wall. In order to break through a typical brick or concrete wall, he’d have to deliver an impact force that exceeds the material’s compressive and tensile strength. Here are some points to imagine:

• A rough analogy is with a high-velocity impact such as meteorite strikes — though the Kool-Aid Man wouldn’t have the mass of a meteorite, the concept is similar: he must provide enough energy to overcome the “failure stress” of the wall material. For instance, a concrete wall might fail with stresses on the order of 20–40 megapascals. Of course, an exact number would be speculative, but think in terms of delivering forces in the tens of millions of newtons over a very short duration.


Impact Forces and Kinetic Energy
Imagine the pitcher barreling toward a solid wall. To break through the wall (and do it in one dramatic burst), the pitcher must generate enough kinetic energy upon impact to exceed the structural strength of the wall. Here’s a simplified picture:

• Kinetic Energy (KE) is given by ½mv². Even for a moderately heavy and fast-moving glass pitcher, you’d need a very short impact duration (Δt) to generate the high forces necessary to break through a material such as reinforced concrete or brick.

• The instantaneous force depends on how quickly the momentum is changed on impact. If the pitcher’s momentum changes from mv to 0 in a fraction of a second, the force, F = Δp/Δt, could be enormous.

• That said, breaking through a wall involves both compressive and shear forces. Typical concrete can handle compressive stresses of roughly 20–40 megapascals; so you’d want the impact’s pressure (force per unit area) to exceed that limit locally.

Thus, even as a glass pitcher, our Kool-Aid Man would have to be moving with tremendous kinetic energy.  To “smash” through a wall in one hit, the Kool-Aid Man might need to generate forces equivalent to, say, a few hundred kilotons of TNT—though our character’s mass is far less than what would normally be invoked in such explosive energy. This suggests that his motion would have to be incredibly high-energy. In short, he’d be part superhuman, part living kinetic bomb.

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The Glass Pitcher Dilemma

Now, let’s consider the container: a glass pitcher. In the real world, glass is notoriously strong under compression but weak under tension or impact—especially if it’s not engineered for high-impact applications. Here’s what we’d need to consider:

• Glass Strength: Ordinary glass (like that used in windows or glassware) can be brittle. However, there are formulations like tempered or laminated glass that are more resistant to impact. Tempered glass, for example, has greater impact resistance due to its internal stresses, though it still shatters once its threshold is exceeded.

• Design Consideration: For our wall-smashing character not to break apart upon impact (or at least not before delivering his punch), the glass might need to be of a specially engineered variety. Think of it as an “ultra-tough reinforced glass” or even a transparent composite material that retains a glassy look but has a dramatically increased fracture toughness.

• Fracture Toughness: In materials science, fracture toughness (K_IC) describes a material’s ability to resist crack propagation. To survive an impact robustly yet still shatter the opposing wall, the pitcher would need a K_IC high enough to prevent immediate self-destruction.

• Structural Reinforcement: Another avenue is a design that includes internal reinforcement—perhaps a network of fine, nearly invisible fibers (like glass fibers in fiberglass) or nano-scale reinforcements. This would maintain the clear, “glass pitcher” aesthetic while dramatically boosting resilience.

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Interaction Between Container and Liquid

The red Kool-Aid inside is a fluid, meaning that upon impact, its inertia will interact with the dynamics of the container. Two aspects are worth mentioning:

• Sloshing: When the pitcher hits the wall suddenly, the liquid will continue moving until the container’s walls force it to decelerate, leading to sloshing. This can increase stresses on the container walls if the liquid mass is significant in comparison to the pitcher’s mass.

• Internal Damping: Conversely, a fluid can help absorb some energy through internal friction, which might distribute stresses more evenly along the container. In a carefully engineered scenario, the properties of Kool-Aid (its density, viscosity, and surface tension) could contribute marginally to the overall impact behavior.

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Conclusion

So, to answer your question within this refined scenario:

• For a glass pitcher (filled with red Kool-Aid) to smash through building walls, it must be moving with an extremely high kinetic energy that converts into immense impact force over a very short time interval. The speeds and masses involved would be in the realm of cartoon physics, where energy flux is high enough to exceed the structural limits of conventional building materials.

• The glass pitcher would likely need to be made of an ultra-tough, reinforced, and possibly composite form of glass—a material that combines the transparency and aesthetic of regular glass with advanced treatments (tempering, fiber-reinforcement, or nano-engineered modifications) that grant it exceptional fracture toughness. This ensures that it can deliver its wall-shattering impact without simply disintegrating upon contact.

In short, our Kool-Aid Man-as-a-glass-pitcher would be a marvel of cartoon engineering—a masterful balance of extreme kinetic energy and advanced material science to allow him to both survive and inflict colossal impact forces on architectural structures!

Which brings me to the most bizarre concept I have ever contemplated: Could a Space Marine withstand the charge of the Kool-Aid Man?

Spoiler:

Ok. Here's an answer to a hypothetical scenario contrasting the cartoon physics of the Kool-Aid Man with the superhuman durability and heavy weaponry of a Space Marine.

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The Character Profiles

• Kool-Aid Man: In our scenario, imagine him as a gigantic, ultra-tough glass pitcher filled with red Kool-Aid—a being whose kinetic energy and impact force defy conventional physics. His charge is cinematic, designed to smash through solid walls with cartoonish exaggeration.

• Space Marine: A genetically enhanced super-soldier clad in the iconic, power-armored exoskeleton. These warriors are built to handle devastating impacts, firepower, and close-quarters combat with technology that lets them shrug off blows that would be fatal for ordinary humans. Their armor (for example, the iconic Power Armor: the Tactical, Terminator, or Assault variants) is built from advanced alloys and energy-dispersing materials and is backed by cybernetic enhancements and personal shields (in some cases).

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The Collision of Cartoon and Grimdark

If the Kool-Aid Man charged a Space Marine, several factors come into play:

• Massive Kinetic Energy vs. Superhuman Toughness:

The Kool-Aid Man’s charge is essentially a burst of cartoonish, over-the-top energy. In his world, he might demolish buildings without so much as a scratch on himself—essentially a physics-defying, narrative exaggeration.

A Space Marine, however, is designed to withstand tremendous forces—from explosion blasts, heavy caliber impacts, and even impacts from massive war machines. Their armor is engineered to disperse shock and absorb energy.

• Impact Dynamics:

The Kool-Aid Man’s impact with a Space Marine would involve a sudden collision—transferring a large amount of momentum over a very short duration. Depending on his speed and mass, this could result in an incredibly high instantaneous force.

That being said, Space Marine power armor and enhanced musculature (enhanced reflexes, reinforced tendons, and bio-engineered physiology) could likely mitigate a large fraction of the impact energy. Even if the armor suffers localized damage (or in grimdark lore, battle scars), the Space Marine’s resilience and determination often let him keep fighting.

• Cartoon Physics vs. Warhammer 40K Reality:

The Kool-Aid Man operates in a realm of cartoon physics where narrative convenience often overrules realistic consequences. His impact might ruffle a Space Marine’s power armor in a visually spectacular way, but in a traditional Warhammer setting—a universe filled with titanic weapons, brute force, and cosmic horrors—the Space Marine is built to survive far worse blows.

Essentially, if you fuse the two aesthetics, the result would be: the Kool-Aid Man might momentarily send a Space Marine flying or momentarily stagger him, but it’s unlikely that a Space Marine would be outright obliterated by a single charge. Their armor, combined with their regenerative and augmented capacities, would probably allow the Marine to continue fighting—perhaps with a dented armor and a re-evaluated approach to facing such oddball attacks.
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Conclusion

While the Kool-Aid Man’s impact is undeniably massive in the realm of cartoon physics, a Space Marine’s design in Warhammer 40,000 is meant to endure apocalyptic levels of punishment. In a direct head-on collision, it’s likely that:

• The Space Marine might take severe damage or be knocked off balance for a moment—the kind of dramatic, gritty effect you'd expect in a Warhammer battle scene.

• However, thanks to his power armor and bio-enhancements, the Marine would most likely survive the assault, albeit with a great story (and possibly a dented helmet) to tell.

So, in this clash of over-the-top fictional physics versus grimdark super-soldiers, the Space Marine would stand, scarred but still very much in the fight—even against the mighty charge of the Kool-Aid Man!

I thank you for this from the bottom of my heart.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
From the background?

Yeah. Thats where the figure came from? Given space magic gene wizardry and techno speed boost armour, I don’t think that’s an inherently ludicrous speed.

 Tyran wrote:
IMHO regular humans should have dropped to Move 4" or even 3" with the change to 8th. A personal and mostly irrelevant peeve of mine.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
From the background?

Yeah. Thats where the figure came from? Given space magic gene wizardry and techno speed boost armour, I don’t think that’s an inherently ludicrous speed.

I suspect Insectum is asking for a source to be cited, Doc.

Breton wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
IMHO regular humans should have dropped to Move 4" or even 3" with the change to 8th. A personal and mostly irrelevant peeve of mine.

Remember the Move characteristic isn't how fast they can move, its how fast they can move (for lack of a better word) carefully. In other words, built into that move rate is picking their way through terrain, maintaining a modicum of cover and visibility, maintaining awareness of the battle at large, some you-move-I-move inside their unit coherency, yadda yadda. So in theory an Aeldari or Space Marine can probably run a 2 second 40 yard dash (or whatever) they're not doing that in a combat move. Even a Combat Run is going to be slower than their max. I'd wager GW is using that rationale to limit all races to a somewhat basic/universal speed.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
IMHO regular humans should have dropped to Move 4" or even 3" with the change to 8th. A personal and mostly irrelevant peeve of mine.

Remember the Move characteristic isn't how fast they can move, its how fast they can move (for lack of a better word) carefully. In other words, built into that move rate is picking their way through terrain, maintaining a modicum of cover and visibility, maintaining awareness of the battle at large, some you-move-I-move inside their unit coherency, yadda yadda. So in theory an Aeldari or Space Marine can probably run a 2 second 40 yard dash (or whatever) they're not doing that in a combat move. Even a Combat Run is going to be slower than their max. I'd wager GW is using that rationale to limit all races to a somewhat basic/universal speed.

That would be my interpretation as well; really heavy things can have a high top speed, it's acceleration and handling (and footing) that hold them back. A hippo can run 30 mph. And I guess technically a space marine can move 18" on a charge.

As for a brick wall, that's a total crap shoot because it depends on the wall's quality. But I don't think space marines can rely on smashing through brick walls as a tactic, while a carnifex can.

 Da Boss wrote:
In the game rules there's never been any sign that marines are faster than normal humans. As fast, despite being massive and heavily armoured, and having supernatural reaction speed (higher initiative), yes, but running way faster than a normal human, no.

So I don't see the argument for making them super sprinters.

I think people give marines way too much credit. That's a problem, because rather than understanding their limitations and allowing them to fight intelligently they just have them plot-armour through every encounter they face.

 Da Boss wrote:
In the game rules there's never been any sign that marines are faster than normal humans. As fast, despite being massive and heavily armoured, and having supernatural reaction speed (higher initiative), yes, but running way faster than a normal human, no.

So I don't see the argument for making them super sprinters.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Part of the ''They shall know no downsides'' thing someone mentioned the other day, all the upsides of stuff like that, with none of the downsides

 RustyNumber wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
In the game rules there's never been any sign that marines are faster than normal humans. As fast, despite being massive and heavily armoured, and having supernatural reaction speed (higher initiative), yes, but running way faster than a normal human, no.

So I don't see the argument for making them super sprinters.

I think it's silly to cherry-pick elements from the game like that. After all marines never used to have two wounds, even though going by the lore they were much MUCH harder to kill than a normal human.

 Dolnikan wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Part of the ''They shall know no downsides'' thing someone mentioned the other day, all the upsides of stuff like that, with none of the downsides

It's the same thing you always see with superheroes, like them being able to lift a truck while still walking on the normal ground. And that makes it one of the things I don't like about the direction things have been moving in. To me, it's much more interesting if they're not so explicitly superhuman and actually have some kind of opposition. Sure, Space Marines are over the top, but so are Aspect Warriors and the like.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I think the upping of Marines wounds is not a balance with Guardsmen, but with the giant monsters that are now in the game, from Norn Emissaries to Primarchs (Daemonic and Classic), the regular Marine had to get tougher to survive these monsters.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I think the upping of Marines wounds is not a balance with Guardsmen, but with the giant monsters that are now in the game, from Norn Emissaries to Primarchs (Daemonic and Classic), the regular Marine had to get tougher to survive these monsters.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I think the upping of Marines wounds is not a balance with Guardsmen, but with the giant monsters that are now in the game, from Norn Emissaries to Primarchs (Daemonic and Classic), the regular Marine had to get tougher to survive these monsters.

The monsters who's weapons are primarily D2 or better?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
I think the upping of Marines wounds is not a balance with Guardsmen, but with the giant monsters that are now in the game, from Norn Emissaries to Primarchs (Daemonic and Classic), the regular Marine had to get tougher to survive these monsters.

The monsters who's weapons are primarily D2 or better?

I was thinking of Magnus the Red (14 attacks, D1) and Superheavies like Baneblades (also D1).


The other issue is Toughness vs Wounds. Which I have trouble discerning sometimes.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, but the 1000 marine per chapter limit makes that unfeasible. Especially when GW insists on having them fight in large scale battles where they are out in the open when things like Doomsday Cannons exist.

So they should die against serious threats, but they won't because if they do then no more space marines.

The only way it makes sense is if GW actually portrayed them as intended and had them only attacking isolated, weak targets. But the SM fanbase doesn't want to see their chapter bully some heretic commander, they want to see them do stupid gak like German Suplex an Avatar of Khaine.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they should die against serious threats, but they won't because if they do then no more space marines.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, but the 1000 marine per chapter limit makes that unfeasible. Especially when GW insists on having them fight in large scale battles where they are out in the open when things like Doomsday Cannons exist.

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, but the 1000 marine per chapter limit makes that unfeasible. Especially when GW insists on having them fight in large scale battles where they are out in the open when things like Doomsday Cannons exist.

Surely it's no worse than when a named character dies on the table but is miraculously still alive and kicking in the next game?

 Hellebore wrote:
There are mutually exclusive intersections on marine capability and GW in classic fashion tries to have it all with their cop out 'everything is canon' approach.

We'd be having these conversations about other factions if they got even a tenth of the power fantasy fiction marines get.

The more OTT levels of background like THE sanguinor carrying a bloodthirster into the air, grey knights bathing in sister blood, or a bunch of marines destroying a craftworld are all from a very Matt Ward shaped era of GW fiction where they went off the rails with pure cartoon idiocy.

That was an anomaly in the long history of how marines have been portrayed in the lore (vs novels) but some people decided because it made them so much cooler, it was the one true image.

The most egregious aspects of the wardian era have been slowly deemphasised, or just dropped from the background precisely because they were terrible. But their ill still exist in the fiction being published.

I think it's important to point out that the Lore(TM) or fluff takes a protagonistless approach to describing events in comparison to novels with protagonists where the story seemingly revolves around them.

40k IMO was at its strongest when it was written with the characters existing within events, rather than the events revolving around them. The former makes the setting much larger, the latter shrinks things down and prevents any story movement without the actions of a few.

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, but the 1000 marine per chapter limit makes that unfeasible. Especially when GW insists on having them fight in large scale battles where they are out in the open when things like Doomsday Cannons exist.

Surely it's no worse than when a named character dies on the table but is miraculously still alive and kicking in the next game?

That aside, if GW is going to retcon anything it should probably be the number of Marines in existence. Play it off as Imperial propaganda or something.

As it is, it just comes across as GW not understanding numbers - in the same way that galactic-level conflicts can somehow have fewer casualties than the first world war.

Breton wrote:


You're confusing and conflating "removed as a casualty" with "dead". During the fluff for Vigilus you can easily see where Marneus Calgar was removed as a casaulty. And again during the Tyrannic Wars vs the Swarmlord.