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Ever felt the super uncomfortable moment when you are visiting someone and there is a spousal argument.

I was witness to one today, but it involved Warhammer. My buddy was trying to teach his son to play Warhammer 40,000.

The spouse says that there are no positive role models in 40k, and their child will not play any game that can take up so much time that doesn't have any positive role models.

My friend was at a loss, so I thought I would ask you fine Dakkanauts to assist in this endeavor that could shape the future of a Warhammer home.

Can you think of any positive role models in 40k?

First off, it really depends on what the spouce considers a positive role model as that is different for everyone. For some it's things like honour, or a pursuit of justice, or "doing the right thing" which again is different for everyone. For others is a specific set of values based on their religious, cultural, or political ideologies, so it's hard to say what would work for sure.

Personally, I'd go with the characters from the original HH books where you see a lot of character beats and could take a lot of lessons away from it. Erebus' treachery, Horus' hubris and fall, the Interex incident, "people" seeing themselves as above and worth more than everyone else are the antagonists and characters like Garviel Loken, Saul Tarvitz, and Nathaniel Garro as those that stand for honour and justice. (I mean, as much as you can stand for that in a place like the Imperium.) But that is where many of us are in our lives, changing the world or the political system we live is seems so far beyond our scope, but we can still do what we believe to be the right things within the scope of our lives.

Outside of that Commander Farsight for the Tau would be another easy character to point to in 40k, he's about as close to a good guy as we get in that setting. He stands up to oppressive leaders, takes care of his people, and is one of the few characters to (at least for a time) set aside his power and authority willingly and more-less try to retire because he believes it's what's best for his people.

On another related note, as someone whose kids are 8, 7, and 5 and all play Warhammer, you could sell it form another angle. Building and painting models together is an amazing bonding experience as a family and it's something my kids always look forward to. They love their models, but they love spending time with me and sharing in something I love just as much.

Also, kids learn a lot from it too. They want to read the rules to better understand how to use their models, they learn probability on what units should take on others. They learn to plan in advance, but also to think of their feet as you never really know how a game is going to turn out and what you may need to react to when playing.

Hopefully that helps.

Edit: Another character that I thought of after the fact, while I haven't read the Dark Imperium stuff yet so I don't know if it stayed to this quality, Guilliman in The Unremembered Empire was a great character who could dealt with a lot of complex situations with nuance, courage, and honour. Also Alexis Pollux from that book as well, overcoming his prejudice and becoming friends with Barabas Dantioch. Even Barthusa Narek to some extent who knows that what his father and all his brothers are doing is wrong and stands against it in his own way, even if he has to 1v1 the entire universe.

Sell the skills. As a three time GW Till Monkey, selling the skills works.

You’ve got reading and reading comprehension just from the rules. You’ve maths from the number crunching. Basic maths, yes. But maths.

And from the game, you learn risk and reward considerations, not to mention a load of social skills

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. When, as a staffer, you first meet a new kid hobbyist, someone that’s finally found Their People? Seeing sometimes not-well-developed social skills (because they’ve always been the odd one out at school*) rapidly blossom is a really pleasing thing to see.

*this isn’t universal, but it’s far from uncommon. And for those kids to have a few hours a week, in a safe space with other geeky kids, free to just be geeky kids, does them a world of good.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Ever felt the super uncomfortable moment when you are visiting someone and there is a spousal argument.

I was witness to one today, but it involved Warhammer. My buddy was trying to teach his son to play Warhammer 40,000.

The spouse says that there are no positive role models in 40k, and their child will not play any game that can take up so much time that doesn't have any positive role models.

My friend was at a loss, so I thought I would ask you fine Dakkanauts to assist in this endeavor that could shape the future of a Warhammer home.

Can you think of any positive role models in 40k?

First, this person sounds abusive of her husband and controlling of her children.
So i'm not sure there will be any argument that can reach her.

But let's assume it's possible.
So obviously she knows about bit about it, she has probably googled 40k on the internet and found the usual "grimdark, fanatics, militaristic, monsters, everyone is bad, incels, nazis" etc...

Also in this day and age i think the satyrical argument cannot be used anymore. It's a SciFI setting ang it is what it is, It's not trying to be tongue in cheeks anymore.

I would list the positives :
- bonding with the father (if she will allow it...)
- the artistic angle of painting, which also teaches patience, and self-improvement
- the complex nature of the rules encourages memorization
- recent novels present characters (even female ones if that is important to her) in a more positive and less gloomy angle, and heroism can be found aplenty in the various Space/Marines/Sisters/Imperial Guard novels.
- share a painting sessions with your son in her presence, with a painting video of Louise Sugden and/or Duncan Rhoades in the background, those 2 are so sweet they can only be branded as positive role models.

If her rationality can be reached, i'd say this is no different from movies, or video-games (but what's her stance on that too?), to which her child will be exposed to for his entire youth.

Anf if all else fails, drop 40k and try another setting/game, if the goal is playing with miniatures.

That spouse just sounds like a nightmare. Pretty much all I have to say. Good luck with that BS.

Two things.

The first is a question is the age of the kids in question and even more than age, level of maturity. There's absolutely merit in the argument that 40k isn't a role model of any sort. There was definitely a point with my kids where I recognized they had good boundaries around fictional violence and they have friends that definitely still haven't hit that point.

Secondly, some of it might be down to what your friend enjoys in the setting. If the answer is Tyranids/Chaos/etc, then that might be how their spouse perceives the setting and might not want that to be something their child identifies with.

Ultimately, its probably in your buddy's best interest to figure out where their spouse is coming from. Without knowing the people involved, particularly the child, its entirely possible that 40k isn't a healthy hobby for them. The conflict here doesn't have an absolute right or wrong and the conflict will only get worse if that's not understood.

The fun of Warhammer is creating your own stories. It's just another outlet for imagination. I'd sell it on its potential as a game and interacting with other people. Adults can have a hard time with this but it's as natural as breathing for kids.

The rolemodels aren't in the story they are in the game and the hobby.

To echo some points raised by others

The game gives social skills; maths; problem solving; hand-eye skills; crafting; painting (both technical and artistic).

The Role Models are the fellow gamers at the store and the club; those are the people the kid will interact with and take part in the hobby with. It's also a chance for his own father to improve his position as a role model by having a common hobby to bond over. Even if its only short term and the kid moves on its a fantastic way to share a commonground that isn't based on work or relations. It's just a hobby.


And Warhammer has a fantastic element of self expression. You can be someone who just builds cool models; who learns to sculpt and convert; who paints for hours; who games and socialises - you can pick one or ALL of the above or any combo and there's many more.



The lore is there; its a wargame the lore is built on war in a grimdark setting. Even some of the heroes are not all that good. But they aren't role-models. They are just stories that act as the backdrop. Again the rolemodels are those real living flesh and blood people who also take part in the hobby.

There's SO Many too - even if they don't head to a local club there are loads of people making tutorials and so forth online too - all 100% positive and fantastic creative energy and guidance for new hobbyists to tap into and take part in.

Many good points here. As I can attest as someone who got into the hobby as a 10 year old kid, the official story was at best in the periphery of my mind. It was the stories that my friends and I made with our models that I recall to this day.

The best thing your friend can do is to communicate with their spouse and see what they want their child to get out of things, there is a good chance that there is something that warhammer can provide on that front. At the end of the day though, every kid needs something they can just have fun with, even discounting all the benefits that I mentioned earlier.

Creating warhammer stories with my friends as a kid is how I got interested in literacy and eventually became a writer. There are plenty of benefits to be had from just being able to have fun and express yourself in the way you want to at any age, but especially as a child.

My answers would be:

1. Ciaphas Cain. Grown up in a dystopian future, raised in an institution that is set up to indoctrinate unwavering loyalty to the regime and set up for a career as Commissar and still he tries to care for the common soldier. He has selfish motives for it, but the longer you read his novels, the more you get the impression that he is indeed kind of a good guy. And above all aware of his inner deamons and fighting them.

2. In my personal opinion one great thing about fantasy and science fiction is exploring hypotheticals and see were that takes you. Star Trek explores the hypothetical of post scarcity society being so idealistic that they keep exploring for the betterment of themselves - and facing harsh realities that put this idealism into question.
Very simply put Warhammer 40k goes the mirror route of that. A dystopian future, a humanity that is way past its prime and odds are it will only go downhill from there but still there are people holding on, "rageing against the dying of the light". You could say that for heroes to shine in a bright light, you need quite a lot of darkness around. Depending on how old the children are it might also be quite educational to read about and intellectually explore how dictatorships, fascist regimes and the like work and... notice similarities in our history and sometimes even current events. A lot of the WH40k fluff also lets one reflect about what ends justify the means. In its monstrosity the tale of the single planet with billions of life being exterminated to save trillions starts the chain of question that leads right down the path to "is sacrificing one life to improve the chance of saving ten always morally correct?".
On another angle: (which often comes to short in other fantasy/scifi worlds): sometimes you just can't win. Sometimes you can only minimize/cut your losses, choose a dirty compromise, have to accept that things aren't black and white.

Maybe condensed: if you want your children to have a strong moral compass, they sooner or later have to face the concept of evil.

3. what the others said: there are so many sides of the hobby. Building, Painting, Collection, Gameing, interaction with a community etc.

On Cain?

I think his self doubts are the result of a Genuinely Good Man inside surviving the indoctrination, but that same indoctrination causing him to rationalise his care for his troops.

Is he a scoundrel? Yes. He gambles, and technically cheats when he brings Caractacus Mott along. He’s a confined womaniser. And he certainly can be selfish (always ensuring he gets the most comfortable quarters). But all those character flaws are insignificant compared to the fact he’s a really competent commander of men.

His self preservation instincts aren’t cowardice. They’re human. Why stand and fight against insurmountable odds when you can sneak off, creep around, or otherwise wangle yourself out of the immediate danger -and preserving as many friendlies as possible in doing so.

If the Death Korps of Krieg have taught us anything it's that all you need is a shovel and willpower, and obviously never to fall and give up, to keep on pushing to achieve goals, to never retreat, we fight and we die, that is the Krieg way. Just have him tell her that the Krieg never give up and he should never do the same either.

'You too can be a faceless, nameless, child soldier!'

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Ever felt the super uncomfortable moment when you are visiting someone and there is a spousal argument.

I was witness to one today, but it involved Warhammer. My buddy was trying to teach his son to play Warhammer 40,000.

The spouse says that there are no positive role models in 40k, and their child will not play any game that can take up so much time that doesn't have any positive role models.

My friend was at a loss, so I thought I would ask you fine Dakkanauts to assist in this endeavor that could shape the future of a Warhammer home.

What makes you think it's your place to intervene here?
And it's certainly not the place for us internet randos....
Nope, this is something your friend & his wife need to work out.

 LunarSol wrote:

The first is a question is the age of the kids in question and even more than age, level of maturity. There's absolutely merit in the argument that 40k isn't a role model of any sort. There was definitely a point with my kids where I recognized they had good boundaries around fictional violence and they have friends that definitely still haven't hit that point.

This this this thiiiis

There's some people jumping feet-first into 'this person is an abusive controlling monster for not wanting their son to play the game where they're All Bad Guys', which feels very...defensive. If they're seven or eight, maybe that's not the worst rule to have for your child. If they're not great about fantasy vs. reality, maybe they don't need to pick up a box of Death Korps. Ciaphas Cain cheerfully fills out forms to have his soldiers shot for rulebreaking and lets genestealer-infected Tau be returned to their ships without a word. Guilliman was a key figure in a galaxy-spanning campaign of conquest and genocide. You can't have a grim, dark setting built around the slow collapse of 'the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable' and then get upset when that's not for everyone. I don't think the spouse is going to be super convinced about any particular character being a positive role model for their child if they Google them and find out their whole thing is all about having to make the hard decision and nuke a planet, or there's a big splash page of them chainsawing someone in half.

Spending time building with your parent rather than doing a deep dive into the background does feel a bit different to me, and that would probably be the route I'd go if I was out to convince someone - but it definitely feels like something the two of them ought to talk about with each other. At the very worst, there's a whole pile of tabletop games with a lot to recommend them that aren't Warhammer, and those have all the artistic/creative/learning positives people have mentioned.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Ever felt the super uncomfortable moment when you are visiting someone and there is a spousal argument.

I was witness to one today, but it involved Warhammer. My buddy was trying to teach his son to play Warhammer 40,000.

The spouse says that there are no positive role models in 40k, and their child will not play any game that can take up so much time that doesn't have any positive role models.

My friend was at a loss, so I thought I would ask you fine Dakkanauts to assist in this endeavor that could shape the future of a Warhammer home.

Can you think of any positive role models in 40k?

Role models are over rated- the big dogs lead, not follow.

40k develops painting (artistic) skills, numbercrunching makes kids actually LIKE math, and the Black Library might just turn the kid into a life long reader.

Role models, on the other hand, will just disappoint you when you find out they used to drug actresses in the late seventies or early 80's, or that they beat their wives. Kill all your heroes, and long live the Emprah.

North America in particular would be a much better place if we'd ditch the hero worship and cult of personality crap and figure out how to do things ourselves. And don't even get me started on "influencers".

That's an extremely immature and shallow definition of "role models" you're using there. All children are surrounded by role models that influence their entire personality to varying degrees. The idea of celebrities or fictional characters being role models is only one type but still an important one when kids get to the age of latching onto "things" to help define their individuality. I challenge you to find a "big dog" who grew up in an isolation chamber without human contact their entire life that is a functional human being.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Ever felt the super uncomfortable moment when you are visiting someone and there is a spousal argument.

I was witness to one today, but it involved Warhammer. My buddy was trying to teach his son to play Warhammer 40,000.

The spouse says that there are no positive role models in 40k, and their child will not play any game that can take up so much time that doesn't have any positive role models.

My friend was at a loss, so I thought I would ask you fine Dakkanauts to assist in this endeavor that could shape the future of a Warhammer home.

Can you think of any positive role models in 40k?

I'd say that's not "the point" of Warhammer fluff. The point is shades of grey and drilling down to find your positive role model - learning everything isn't cut and dry with White Hats and Black Hats. Like that Obi-Wan "Certain Point of View" line.

Gotta agree with the toxic-sounding-spouse assessment. Even if WH doesn't have any 'positive' role models it's still, inarguably imo, a pretty good hobby to have a child get into. There's creativity in terms of assembling and painting models, excellent development of hand eye coordination, and most importantly a huge development of patience which is SORELY lacking from kids who get all their fun from phones / video games / ect.

And that's just the assembly. Playing is also good for reading comprehension, memory, real-world math usage, and again patience /socialization / ect.

I'm not one of those "WARHAMMER IS THE BEST THING A CHILD COULD EVER DO" lunatics, but it's a hobby that can last a life time while being significantly better for development real-world skills (and frankly more time efficient; consoles and computers are expensive!

That said, it's likely that she doesn't know much of anything about warhammer. That, combined with a healthy (and wholly understandable) tentativity for anything which seems to cast a sympathetic light on fascism, could definitely be coloring her view. In that case it may be worth suggesting something like tyranids or necrons, which are fully-alien factions and free of that sort of thing.

In my view, there's nothing you can do in this situation. You're an outsider to the marriage with no real link to the kid in question.

The conversation has to be entirely between the married couple because it is their kid. There could be a lot going on we don't know about so our advice isn't really going to be that helpful. It could easily be the case for example that your friends wife just resents the time and money he spends on Warhammer and doesn't want him to have an excuse to do more of it with his son, and her statement about role models is just a convenient excuse.

In which case, finding positive role models won't do any good anyway.

 Da Boss wrote:
In my view, there's nothing you can do in this situation. You're an outsider to the marriage with no real link to the kid in question.

The conversation has to be entirely between the married couple because it is their kid. There could be a lot going on we don't know about so our advice isn't really going to be that helpful. It could easily be the case for example that your friends wife just resents the time and money he spends on Warhammer and doesn't want him to have an excuse to do more of it with his son, and her statement about role models is just a convenient excuse.

In which case, finding positive role models won't do any good anyway.

And I agree. But I can look at this as a learning opportunity. And look at possible options if I'm ever in the same situation.

I agree with Da Boss, it's none of your beeswax.

If this was about introducing an adult friend, it's an appropriate discussion but not someone else's child.

Best thing to do is stay out of it.

There aren't any. But... the people that do this hobby are a different kettle of fish. The people you meet and interact with are what makes it worthwhile.

 RustyNumber wrote:
That's an extremely immature and shallow definition of "role models" you're using there. All children are surrounded by role models that influence their entire personality to varying degrees. The idea of celebrities or fictional characters being role models is only one type but still an important one when kids get to the age of latching onto "things" to help define their individuality. I challenge you to find a "big dog" who grew up in an isolation chamber without human contact their entire life that is a functional human being.

You aren't wrong- role models are important at certain developmental stages, and people also tend to role model elements of their personalities rather than their whole lives: someone might might see a famous baseball player as a role model, but they're probably only really paying attention to what that player does on the field or the moves in their career.

That said, my issue is that "mom" seems to think role models are more important than skill development, and they aren't.

It might surprise you to learn that I GMed my first game of D&D at age 8, wrote a roleplaying game based on the Micronaut toys when I was 10 and wrote a video game based on Stephen King's Christine the year I turned 11. And that's because I was encouraged to DO things, not follow people. My grandma, my mom and my stepdad were the best role models I ever had, and I certainly won't deny that... But they cared far more about what I did and could do than who I followed. They were surprisingly Socratic in their approach, asking me how I thought and felt about EVERYTHING before telling me how they thought and felt about ANYTHING.

My post was a little strong, because yes, role models CAN be very important at different developmental stages, and you're right that there's no denying that. But prioritizing role models over a child's own thoughts, feelings and skills development can be as problematic as having no role models or bad ones. Teaching kids that ALL people have both good any bad qualities is far safer in the long run.

I loved Motely Crue songs, but I didn't worship Motely Crue- Vince got drunk on a joyride with the drummer from Hanoi Rocks which took him from us; Nikki did enough drugs for an entire band and Tommy's schlong was the last thing I wanted to see as a teenager. To this day, if you ask me who my favourite band is, I'll answer by telling you my five favourite songs by the three bands who have more songs that I like than any other bands. If you ask me who my favourite actors are, I will answer by telling you my three favourite characters played by each of the people that played more characters I like than any other actors.

The point is don't be inspired by people: people generally suck, and if you don't think they do, you probably just don't know them well enough. Instead, be inspired by what people DO when they're at their best. I'll never be Mick Mars, and I'd never want to be, but I can learn to phrase a guitar solo the way he does and drop the pinch harmonics in at just the right time to punctuate the song.

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Ever felt the super uncomfortable moment when you are visiting someone and there is a spousal argument.

I was witness to one today, but it involved Warhammer. My buddy was trying to teach his son to play Warhammer 40,000.

The spouse says that there are no positive role models in 40k, and their child will not play any game that can take up so much time that doesn't have any positive role models.

My friend was at a loss, so I thought I would ask you fine Dakkanauts to assist in this endeavor that could shape the future of a Warhammer home.

What makes you think it's your place to intervene here?
And it's certainly not the place for us internet randos....
Nope, this is something your friend & his wife need to work out.

Yes, but friends do ask each other for advise. You can be ready to offer a helping hand to a friend and an option on a situation without inserting yourself into their life/issues and/or pushing your own beliefs.

I think we have some hot takes here. The mother wanting positive role models for her kid is hardly oppressive behaviour. And remember, whilst this isn’t a dig at OP or anyone else? We’ve only third hand information on offer.

Hence I recommend extolling the skills virtue of the games, as they’re easily overlooked by someone not familiar with what you need to know to play them.

But, ultimately? It’s a decision for the parents and the parents alone.

My paternal grandparents wouldn’t buy me Star Wars toys, preferring to gift puzzle toys for their educational benefits. And I’d hardly call them oppressive for doing that. Though the irony is, turns out they stumped up the cash for Mum to buy me HeroQuest!

If it's a hard no on the Warhammer front, could always suggest a sideways step into something like Bolt Action. Would foster the same hobby skills but with less demons and half-naked whip-nuns and whatnot.

One thing to consider is that we see the game as models, painting and so forth.

The mother is likely seeing it as a WARGAME with a big emphasis on the WAR. There's also demons; horrible mutants; flayed flesh; exposed guts; etc....
Lets not kid ourselves the setting is DARK.


Some people don't get past that impression and parents can get worried that all those grim-dark-gritty-nasty things will imprint on their child in a nasty way.
This is a bit like "video games make people violent" when they look at games like GTA where you literally steal cars, run people over, beat people up and shoot them and half the time that isn't even following a mission that's just background antics.

Sure there's ZERO proof that these things actually make for bad people and for fostering problems. If anything there's likely the opposite evidence, esp for things like Warhammer where; as noted a earlier; it can often be a huge social outlet and connection point for people who do otherwise struggle.



For someone who is worried about the impact of a WARGAME on their child even games like Boltaction would be a problem - someone has to be the Nazis and even the "good" side in those games is still sending conscripts to the hell of battle with mines and flamethrowers.

I think that's running the risk of putting words in people's mouths. All the information we've got so far is the lack of positive role-models specifically in 40K being an issue.

LB - how old is the nipper in question?

Crispy78 wrote:
I think that's running the risk of putting words in people's mouths. All the information we've got so far is the lack of positive role-models specifically in 40K being an issue.

LB - how old is the nipper in question?

Seven last time I checked. Time seems to flow differently at their place. Every time I go over there, their kid is replaced by an older, taller version.