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I've heard conflicting things, especially from the new generation of 40k players, but i was always given to believe that originally, the lore was that each Marine only ever have the two progenoid and that once they were gone/removed, that was it. The Marine will not be internally growing/nuturing any additional glands. They're now 'sterile', so to speak. metaphorically. Has this changed as of late?

Because going from Warhammer Community circa 2016, they seem to be parroting the Index Astartes I circa 2002 line as well.

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's Chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years, the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years, the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed any time after it has matured. These glands represent a Chapter's only source of gene-seed. When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote implanted into the recipient Marine. Once removed by surgery, the progenoid must be carefully prepared, its individual gene-seeds checked for mutation, and sound gene-seeds stored. Gene-seeds can be stored indefinitely under suitable conditions.

Gene-seed can only be obtained by removing one or both progenoid organs from a living (or very recently deceased) Marine.[---] The whole purpose of the progenoid organ is to provide gene-seed to enable the Chapter to continue. It is not possible to create a zygote in any other way. Each Chapter's stock of gene-seed is therefore unique to itself.

[i]As each Marine has only two progenoid glands, the rate at which a Chapter can create new Marines is restricted.

So hypothetically, can brother genericus get his neck gland excised after 5 years maturity, and then undergo chest surgery to remove his chest gland five years after his neck surgery, and then spend the rest of his service career running around with zero glands?

Yes. However, the fluff of apothecaries undertaking battlefield surgery on the dead (especially those they have just been granted the Emperor’s Peace by said medic) to save the gene seed is really evocative so tends to stick in the head.

No, geneseed is needed to make sure the many genetic enhancements keep working.

Removing the second organ would leave these enhancements unable to function and the Astartes in question would die as their enhanced biology degraded.

I also thought that the glands were only collected from dead marines.

I think in the early days of 40K this was the story because chapter followed the codex with only a few variations but stuck to approx 1000 marines. Therefore collecting gene seed from dead marines enforced a 1 out 1 in policy and stopped chapters from growing too big.

Now of course we know that pretty much all SM chapter were breaking the rules and have 1000s of marines so they must be manufacturing gene seed

 Gert wrote:
No, geneseed is needed to make sure the many genetic enhancements keep working.

Removing the second organ would leave these enhancements unable to function and the Astartes in question would die as their enhanced biology degraded.

Source?

Why did GW say "Gene-seed can only be obtained by removing one or both progenoid organs from a living (or very recently deceased) Marine." If one cant remove both from a living marine


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
I also thought that the glands were only collected from dead marines.

I think in the early days of 40K this was the story because chapter followed the codex with only a few variations but stuck to approx 1000 marines. Therefore collecting gene seed from dead marines enforced a 1 out 1 in policy and stopped chapters from growing too big.

Now of course we know that pretty much all SM chapter were breaking the rules and have 1000s of marines so they must be manufacturing gene seed

Maybe things have changed since 2016? Or is this another case of BL not following corporate

It’s one of those things that may well vary Chapter to Chapter.

Chapter A might be ruthlessly pragmatic, and extract as soon as the Progenoid is Mature, ideally in a sterile location with all the necessary tools.

Chapter B might hold a tradition that the olderer the Progenoid Gland, the Gooderer it is, and only harvest from the dead or the dying.

Chapter C may leave it to a given Brother’s discretion.

What we can say is removal of both is a fairly low risk procedure on an otherwise healthy and uninjured Astartes. Those done under battlefield conditions may be somewhat more rushed, and so risky. But if it’s being removed on a battlefield, you’re probably in a bad situation anyway.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

Source?

Why did GW say "Gene-seed can only be obtained by removing one or both progenoid organs from a living (or very recently deceased) Marine." If one cant remove both from a living marine

Firstly, there is no "GW". 40k is over 35 years old with a huge number of writers for both main publications and BL books all of whom interpret or write things differently.
"Everything is canon, nothing is true" is the official stance on background.
The article you're taking from also explicitly says that the information from Index: Astartes is considered outdated and that the background has developed and changed since 2002.

With regards to you query, Gildar Rift has a Silver Skull Astartes have their geneseed removed by the Red Corsairs when they are still alive as an experiment.
He is recovered by the Chapter but is informed by the Apothecary that examines him that as his geneseed has been removed they are certain his organs will no longer function properly and he will likely die. Again they aren't 100% certain because nobody truly understands the exact science of geneseed.
It is also noted in many publications that geneseed can cause mutations in the other organs implanted such as those of Imperial Fists lineage not being able to implant Betchers Glands or the Sus An Membrane.
Removal of geneseed means an Astartes is no longer truly an Astartes. The genetic link to their Primarch is gone and their legacy with it.

Some old fluff was many (I think CSM) had the neck geneseed removed when mature, and the chest one left in to regulate the remaining organs as their recruitment was always trying to expand and cover casualties and genetic problems.

 Gert wrote:

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

Source?

Why did GW say "Gene-seed can only be obtained by removing one or both progenoid organs from a living (or very recently deceased) Marine." If one cant remove both from a living marine

Firstly, there is no "GW". 40k is over 35 years old with a huge number of writers for both main publications and BL books all of whom interpret or write things differently.
"Everything is canon, nothing is true" is the official stance on background.
The article you're taking from also explicitly says that the information from Index: Astartes is considered outdated and that the background has developed and changed since 2002.

With regards to you query, Gildar Rift has a Silver Skull Astartes have their geneseed removed by the Red Corsairs when they are still alive as an experiment.
He is recovered by the Chapter but is informed by the Apothecary that examines him that as his geneseed has been removed they are certain his organs will no longer function properly and he will likely die. Again they aren't 100% certain because nobody truly understands the exact science of geneseed.
It is also noted in many publications that geneseed can cause mutations in the other organs implanted such as those of Imperial Fists lineage not being able to implant Betchers Glands or the Sus An Membrane.
Removal of geneseed means an Astartes is no longer truly an Astartes. The genetic link to their Primarch is gone and their legacy with it.

Oh? Is games workshop a defunct company? If so, then who is running the show and who is our money going to. If ive been giving away my money for free there will be hell to pay.

More importantly if, as you claim, 'everything is canon nothing is true' then that means your statement isnt true either so why did you comment because for that statement to be true, means that something has to be true, not nothing

I also didnt ask about mutations, and you will need to source your last claim.

There is the superstition that the longer the chest one stays in the marine the more it absorbs of their glory and skill. And this will pass on to the new recruits.

@Gert - Thanks for the Silver Skulls example. I haven't seen anything before on progenoid glands supporting on-going operation, only that they are a repository of absorbed "stuff" from the marine. Do you have any other examples, as the one given seems a bit more in-universe uncertainty about how gene-seed works, rather than an outside description?

The mutation thing is definitely relevant, and would likely arise from poor progenoid removal practices (drift over time due to relying on glands being removed too early for example) but thats a chapter-wide issue, not something that requires presence of the gland in a marine to keep them functioning.

Always keep in mind that in 40K, we’re dealing with unreliable narrators. Facts become Myths, Myths become Facts.

Only The Emperor, and most likely Cawl, still know exactly what each organ does, how it’s all controlled and managed biologically, and whether the Progenoid was intended to be left in as long as possible, and what the risk/reward is.

The rest? Chapter Tradition.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

Oh? Is games workshop a defunct company? If so, then who is running the show and who is our money going to. If ive been giving away my money for free there will be hell to pay.

As a monolithic entity in the context of where background is created, there is no "GW says".
As I pointed out, 40k has been going for 35 years and has been added to by many people over that time.

More importantly if, as you claim, 'everything is canon nothing is true' then that means your statement isnt true either so why did you comment because for that statement to be true, means that something has to be true, not nothing

In the context of trying to assign a monolithic "omniscient overlord" status to GW as a company that's the line that is taken.
The point I am trying to get across to you is that just because a source from 2002 says X, does not make it true 20 years later.

I also didnt ask about mutations, and you will need to source your last claim.

It's relevant to the discussion on why both geneseed organs can't be removed from a living Astartes.
It's providing context as to why one organ must always remain in the Astartes.
As for sources on geneseed mutations, like every Space Marine Codex ever?
When the geneseed of a specific Astartes lineage is implanted it can cause certain organs to malfunction (such as the Melonchromic organ in Raven Guard or Salamanders) or cease functioning altogether (such as with the Imperial Fists).
The 21st Founding (the Cursed Founding) was specifically aimed at eliminating the mutations found in the geneseed of these lineages to allow for more Chapters to be created from them.
It didn't work and the opposite effect occurred with nearly all of the 21st Founding Chapters, such as the Black Dragons and Sons of Anteus (spelling might be wrong), suffering widespread mutation.

 Flinty wrote:
@Gert - Thanks for the Silver Skulls example. I haven't seen anything before on progenoid glands supporting on-going operation, only that they are a repository of absorbed "stuff" from the marine. Do you have any other examples, as the one given seems a bit more in-universe uncertainty about how gene-seed works, rather than an outside description?

The mutation thing is definitely relevant, and would likely arise from poor progenoid removal practices (drift over time due to relying on glands being removed too early for example) but thats a chapter-wide issue, not something that requires presence of the gland in a marine to keep them functioning.

Agreed, we can chalk up the silver skulls example to several 'options'

1. Something unique to the silver skulls since they're the only ones harping on about it

2. A miscomprehension within the silver skulls themselves. Ie, they got it wrong themselves and the glands dont actually work like that

3. Another classic example of the speration between the bl-verse and gw-verse

I also agree with you, organ failures appear to be a internalised problem localised in specific lineages (ie, raven guard lineage post HH), not neccessarily a nation-wide issue affecting all seeds.

There’s a conflict of language here, people that are contributing seem to be talking about geneseed and progeniod glands as if they are interchangeable.

The progeniod glands are definitely removed at death, clearly there are examples of them being removed whilst still alive.

Geneseed is produced by the glands but I don’t know if it can be extracted without removal of the glands and if it can be used without the glands to make new astartes. Does anyone else know?

mrFickle wrote:
There’s a conflict of language here, people that are contributing seem to be talking about geneseed and progeniod glands as if they are interchangeable.

The progeniod glands are definitely removed at death, clearly there are examples of them being removed whilst still alive.

Geneseed is produced by the glands but I don’t know if it can be extracted without removal of the glands and if it can be used without the glands to make new astartes. Does anyone else know?

Going through the war-com blog from GW, it does say this...


Gene-seed can only be obtained by removing one or both progenoid organs from a living (or very recently deceased) Marine.

[----]

The whole purpose of the progenoid organ is to provide gene-seed to enable the Chapter to continue. It is not possible to create a zygote in any other way. Each Chapter's stock of gene-seed is therefore unique to itself.

[---]

The extinction of a type of gene-seed means that a zygote has been lost forever. The extinction of a Phase 18 or 19 gene-seed would effectively mean an end to a Chapter.

[---]

The efficiency of different Chapters' progenoid gene-seed also varies, so some Chapters are able to make up their numbers faster than others.

[----]

A new Chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote.

Why is a Zygote involved? This is my understanding of what a zygote is

“A zygote is the first cell that forms when a sperm cell fertilizes an egg cell. It is a single-cell organism that contains the complete set of DNA from both parents and marks the beginning of embryonic development.

After fertilization, the zygote undergoes cell division (mitosis), eventually developing into an embryo and later a fetus. This process happens in sexually reproducing organisms, including humans, animals, and plants.”

Your understanding of what zygote means may differ from thet of the GW fluff mook who first included it in a description

mrFickle wrote:
Why is a Zygote involved? This is my understanding of what a zygote is

“A zygote is the first cell that forms when a sperm cell fertilizes an egg cell. It is a single-cell organism that contains the complete set of DNA from both parents and marks the beginning of embryonic development.

After fertilization, the zygote undergoes cell division (mitosis), eventually developing into an embryo and later a fetus. This process happens in sexually reproducing organisms, including humans, animals, and plants.”

Maybe corporate was making a joke about Astartes being a play on words/parody of Astarte being some pagan fertility goddess? Maybe its something to do with the in-universe notion of 'passing on traits', honestly, no clue.

Might have to email them about it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

As for sources on geneseed mutations, like every Space Marine Codex ever?

Removal of geneseed means an Astartes is no longer truly an Astartes. The genetic link to their Primarch is gone and their legacy with it.

@Gert Not what i asked, and you know it, as you yourself should know, your last sentence (or more accurately, the first half of your last sentence) was explicitly "Removal of geneseed means an Astartes is no longer truly an Astartes."
Source on the claim that an Astarte is no longer an Astarte without their gene-seed. Because that also means that a dead Astarte isn't a Astarte anymore because their glands were removed.

 Gert wrote:

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:

Source?

Why did GW say "Gene-seed can only be obtained by removing one or both progenoid organs from a living (or very recently deceased) Marine." If one cant remove both from a living marine

Firstly, there is no "GW". 40k is over 35 years old with a huge number of writers for both main publications and BL books all of whom interpret or write things differently.
"Everything is canon, nothing is true" is the official stance on background.
The article you're taking from also explicitly says that the information from Index: Astartes is considered outdated and that the background has developed and changed since 2002.

With regards to you query, Gildar Rift has a Silver Skull Astartes have their geneseed removed by the Red Corsairs when they are still alive as an experiment.
He is recovered by the Chapter but is informed by the Apothecary that examines him that as his geneseed has been removed they are certain his organs will no longer function properly and he will likely die. Again they aren't 100% certain because nobody truly understands the exact science of geneseed.
It is also noted in many publications that geneseed can cause mutations in the other organs implanted such as those of Imperial Fists lineage not being able to implant Betchers Glands or the Sus An Membrane.
Removal of geneseed means an Astartes is no longer truly an Astartes. The genetic link to their Primarch is gone and their legacy with it.

I remember reading that in that book. The Apothecary's reaction was 'well, maybe someday we'll give you new geneseed.' Like, dude, isn't that something that should be done right away?

Each organ sends cells to the progenoids that form 'zygotes', so each progenoid is like a uterus holding the earliest form of all 19 (20) organs.

The zygote is just a clone of the organ, and as they're separate tissues foreign to the person with them, you could argue that they are parthenogenic offspring.


The progenoid mediating the action of the other organs is afaik only when they're implanted and initially merging with the host. They need to grow and develop to full function.


And even if progenoids are required for ongoing mediation of all other organs, which i don't think I've ever seen (the CS Goto level of silver skulls weirdness not withstanding), that doesn't mean you couldn't remove the neck gland once they become full marines and leave the chest one in for extraction at death.

 Flinty wrote:
@Gert - Thanks for the Silver Skulls example. I haven't seen anything before on progenoid glands supporting on-going operation, only that they are a repository of absorbed "stuff" from the marine. Do you have any other examples, as the one given seems a bit more in-universe uncertainty about how gene-seed works, rather than an outside description?

Well geneseed essentially rewrites the genetic code of an Astartes to be more similar to their Primarch with the effects varying from each host.
Some become carbon copies while others only get hints of traits or looks but all become genetic siblings.
We also know that the geneseed implant is the most important stage of the Astartes process both medically and spiritually. Without it they cannot truly become Astartes. If the geneseed doesn't graft to the host that's it, it's over for the aspirant.

The mutation thing is definitely relevant, and would likely arise from poor progenoid removal practices (drift over time due to relying on glands being removed too early for example) but thats a chapter-wide issue, not something that requires presence of the gland in a marine to keep them functioning.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:
I also agree with you, organ failures appear to be a internalised problem localised in specific lineages (ie, raven guard lineage post HH), not neccessarily a nation-wide issue affecting all seeds.

That is incorrect. Geneseed mutation was present from day one in the Astartes.
The fact that there are any instances of geneseed causing malfunctions or changes to the other implanted organs shows that it has a measure of genetic control for these organs to function efficiently.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:
@Gert Not what i asked, and you know it, as you yourself should know, your last sentence (or more accurately, the first half of your last sentence) was explicitly "Removal of geneseed means an Astartes is no longer truly an Astartes."
Source on the claim that an Astarte is no longer an Astarte without their gene-seed. Because that also means that a dead Astarte isn't a Astarte anymore because their glands were removed.

Dude you need to chill out. You're jumping down my throat demanding sources at every single turn here and refusing to engage without being argumentative and hyper-literal.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and engaging but you need to learn what a metaphor is.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I remember reading that in that book. The Apothecary's reaction was 'well, maybe someday we'll give you new geneseed.' Like, dude, isn't that something that should be done right away?

It's something that's posited as "We genuinely don't know if we can undo this damage". We know that geneseed can be very fickle in its implantation with some subjects rejecting it violently outright or others accepting it but having issues down the line because it never adapts the host's genetics.
What do you do when an Astartes has already adapted to one specific organ after decades of genetic change?

So where's your source on the claim Astartes are no longer Astartes without their gene-seed. Aside from the same Silver Skulls one, i know very well one of the in-universe characters in the Chapter felt a bit off and was looked at askance by his mates once he got both removed but that shouldn't be taken as a widely accepted nation-wide phenomena.

and you are incorrect on the notion that all flaws were present from the onset. The Campaigns of The Age of Darkness – The Siege of Cthonia ruleset (June 2023)
states that, in the case of the Imperial Fists, they deliberately omitted certain implants, which just so happened to become genetically codified after the war.


"Through experimentation and sacrifice, the minds gathered
beneath Dorn’s aegis devised new orders of augmentation
that delayed the implantation of both the Betcher’s
Gland and Sus-an Membrane, [---] the misordered implantation of both organs may
have resulted in permanent degradation of the genetic
code necessary to utilise them."

I never claimed "all flaws" were present, rather that mutation was present from the outset.
The Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Night Lords, Raven Guard, and Space Wolves were all created with mutated geneseed that altered their genetics in some way.
The Night Lords and Raven Guard were merely cosmetic with their geneseed causing a malfunction in the Melonchronic organ, while the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves had massive genetic changes that ravaged their flesh and turned them into monsters before ways to pacify the effects were found.
Please read my posts properly and I will not have to repeat myself for a third time.

As for why an Astartes needs geneseed, that's the whole shtick.
The creation of geneseed is what allowed the Astartes to come into being in the first place.
Without it they are just enhanced humans, that's what the Thunder Warriors were.
The geneseed ties it all together and links the host to their Primarch by altering their very genetic makeup.
As for a source, once again, literally any Space Marine Codex.

My understanding was always that they could remove one but had to hold off on the second until the marine died.

If they can remove both the whole idea of conserving geneseed becomes nonsense, they could just keep each marine training on their homeworld for the first 10 years and now their chapter is "immortal" and will never lose geneseed no matter how many are killed. In fact the more casualties they take the more geneseed they have since each new recruit doubles the supply. But the lore always describes the opposite.

Don't forget that the mechanicus also just produces geneseed using vat clone bodies to build stocks up. that's what the tithe is for.

The idea that it's hard to replace marines is, in the scale of the imperium untrue and purely artificially enforced by the adeptus terra.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
My understanding was always that they could remove one but had to hold off on the second until the marine died.

If they can remove both the whole idea of conserving geneseed becomes nonsense, they could just keep each marine training on their homeworld for the first 10 years and now their chapter is "immortal" and will never lose geneseed no matter how many are killed. In fact the more casualties they take the more geneseed they have since each new recruit doubles the supply. But the lore always describes the opposite.

I think that only works if one assumes a 100% viablity rate of the organs. Assuming we go by GW, gene-seed degredation has been known to occur, so even if both are removed, its entirely possible that at least one, possible both, are non-viable and cannot be used in future.

For example, there's a little sentence in the 4th edition SM rulebook saying that for the Ultramarines they only have "Neophyte survival at 54%." . And since their seed is noted as being 'not-awful', it would mean lineages with 'awful' seed could easily have a scenario where both seeds fail.

These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implantation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may accelerate the process.[---]Although the Chapters are careful to select only the most suitable candidates, not all neophytes survive to become initiates. This is due in part to the degeneration of knowledge amongst the individual Chapters that makes screening procedures less effective than they once were. Nor are operational methods entirely satisfactory in some cases. In many Chapters implant surgery is heavily ritualised, and is often accompanied by scarring, incantation, periods of prayer, fasting and all sorts of mystical practices which compromise medical efficiency


So what i took this to mean is that, even if both seeds are viable when harvested, there's no guarantee the person its implanted into survives. And if only one or none is viable, then things get even stickier for the Chapter

My understanding of the lore is:

The flaws were present from the start of astartes creation because the geneseed wasn’t intended for them originally, the primarchs were engineered to lead the armies of men but then they disappeared so the astartes were created thunder warrior style to fill the void and make up for the loss of the primarchs. There for pumping primarch genetic juice into humans caused unplanned mutations because it wasn’t made for that originally.


It’s another reason that makes me firmly believe that each aspect of the primarchs, like Magnus being an amazing psycher, was planned and developed by the emperor.

Kind of?

Whilst we know the Astartes were a bodge job created from the leftovers of the Primarch project after the abduction, and Cawl’s Primaris refinements show even then, they were an unfinished project.

What we can’t, and will probably never know, is what the Astartes might’ve looked like had the abduction never occurred. We do know there’s one organ (or half an organ? Goes in the brain, that much I’m confident of), Cawl hasn’t been able to replicate, stopping him short of creating new Primarchs.

Personally I’ve no doubt the Primarchs were intended to lead super soldiers, and not just regular Smelly Hoomans.

The general idea, which various parties promote in the Heresy series, is that Astartes are genetically encoded to be loyal to their Primarch.

Argel Tal discusses it and even goes as far as to suggest that the "flaw" of the Word Bearers' geneseed is that their loyalty to Lorgar is enhanced beyond that of every other Legion.
We see Loken's struggle with it constantly, even until the end of the Siege.

If the Primarchs had been left on Terra to be moulded by the Emperor, the Legions would have been the perfect tool for conquering the galaxy while the Imperial Webway project was completed.