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 Orkeosaurus wrote:
That is a cool piece of fluff. There should be a Black Library book explaining exactly what's inside the box in detail, told directly to the reader through objective narration. Then it would be even cooler.

I see what you did there.

For the Imperium, no. For humanity itself, sure.

The Imperium is so fundamentally ingrained in it's ways that for it to become something that not only could actually "win", but maintain a functioning society in it's aftermath, the Imperium as we know it would no longer exist, it may use the same name, but would fundamentally need a different structure, organization, and belief system to it.

The problem with changing that is that pretty much everyone within it thinks that it's working as is. The High Lords and the rest of the Imperial 1% are plenty happy with their lot, living like kings, most of the lower echelons of society don't know any better, and those that do either see the horrors that they are up against as a worse alternative, or see the existing system as the only salvation. So long as faith and willpower have a legitimate tangible effect, you're never going to topple something like the ecclesiarchy because they can actually "prove" what they claim.

The only thing that could put humanity of a different course at this point would be either a) Millenia of subtle societal changes and shift by someone with a clear vision like Guilliman, or b) Big E waking up and re-building it into something else (though I don't exactly trust that his version of things would be any better, just different).

Iracundus wrote:

Kittycatcastle wrote:
Really depends what you mean by 'salvation'.

I think it could be maintained and reformed under Guilliman, provided he has enough allies. The kind of total war that they're fighting actually means he has much more of an opportunity to cut the red tape and make sure it stays cut than he would if he'd emerged in peacetime not-as-total-wartime. People need to have direction in a time of crisis. After the crisis has died down he and his allies just need to make sure the changes stick and that the Imperium is more organised and sensible. The Imperium has changed over time, after all-admittedly the last major reform was that of St Thor, and the status quo from that has lasted for about as long as our entire civilisation, but change is possible in response to a sufficient crisis, and I think 'half the galaxy is missing and we are being attacked on all sides by unprecedentedly massive enemies but the son of God has returned to lead us' counts as sufficient.

Guilliman has not accomplished significant internal reform despite his intent to do so because of the very threats the Imperium faces on all fronts. He has been forced to shelve long term reforms of everything, even the dating system, in favor of short-term measures that allow him to get the Indomitus Crusade off the ground. He also has been running around putting down threats and putting out fires. Although he has had some military successes, he does not get any change to take a breath to tackle reforms, even on a local scale. He basically stops in any one place just long enough to replenish his military strength (even if it means wrecking planets in the long term) before setting off to tackle the next threat.

As a Primarch and one with a particular talent for administration and logistics, he probably could unsnarl the local Administratum if he could stay in place long enough and eventually turn areas into sort of Ultramar equivalents (i.e. a somewhat sane government though still austere and spartan by 21st century standards of human rights and quality of life). However he is trying to save the whole Imperium at once and I think that will be beyond him. In trying to save everything, he is going to lose it all. I don't think any reforms he starts last long after he leaves, and these reforms themselves are mostly surface level that accomplish the short term goal of keeping his Crusade forces replenished and moving.

I know that that's how things stand while the Imperium is in its current state with Chaos chopping off half the galaxy and the infinite tyranids coming in from the side while the orks get bigger and stronger, but if he can get the Imperium through that and get to a state of affairs that's a bit more stable, then he'll have enough power left that he will be able to make some real long-term changes. Now-I have no idea how GW will deal with the overarching narrative, it's not really their style to let things calm down and get less critical, but hypothetically if Guilliman steered the Imperium through to a point where it had a stable territory that was not in imminent danger of being eaten by space beetles or conquered by Chaos in its entirety, he'd be in a position to start really changing things.

A lot of 'if's there, though.

 Tawnis wrote:
For the Imperium, no. For humanity itself, sure.

The Imperium is so fundamentally ingrained in it's ways that for it to become something that not only could actually "win", but maintain a functioning society in it's aftermath, the Imperium as we know it would no longer exist, it may use the same name, but would fundamentally need a different structure, organization, and belief system to it.

The problem with changing that is that pretty much everyone within it thinks that it's working as is. The High Lords and the rest of the Imperial 1% are plenty happy with their lot, living like kings, most of the lower echelons of society don't know any better, and those that do either see the horrors that they are up against as a worse alternative, or see the existing system as the only salvation. So long as faith and willpower have a legitimate tangible effect, you're never going to topple something like the ecclesiarchy because they can actually "prove" what they claim.

The only thing that could put humanity of a different course at this point would be either a) Millenia of subtle societal changes and shift by someone with a clear vision like Guilliman, or b) Big E waking up and re-building it into something else (though I don't exactly trust that his version of things would be any better, just different).

Yet it’s the unity of the Imperium that seems to be the key to its longevity.

Its holdings are far vaster than we can grasp. It’s the sort of Human Resources where entire planetary populations can be lost to war, and near as dammit be replaced, ensuring few worlds lie fallow for long.

If your system has been overwhelmed? It’s just a matter of time until Overwhelming Reinforcement Arrives. Whether they arrive in time is another matter entirely (see first point)

And as has been pointed out in rather more heated threads? Awful as it is, it doesn’t care a jot about the density of your melanin, the contents of your undies or who you prefer to cuddle up at night. So long as you follow one of the accepted branches of the Imperial Creed, exactly what you believe isn’t a worry either.

Fractured humanity, after the peculiar riches and security of the Imperium isn’t going to be some golden era I reckon.

And so the best bet is some Righting Of The Ship Your On. It’s overall structure is still solid. It can still get a decent clip on when needs must. The re-training and effective assignment and distribution of the crew might take some time to let her really skip over every oncoming wave. But you’re still far safer aboard the HMS Clusterfeth, than nicking a lifeboat and hoping for the best.

Cadia is gone, the galaxy has been torn in two by a giant Warp Rift, three massive Tyranid swarms are making a push into Solar Segmentum, there is an ascendant Chaos demi-god with a reality burrowing planet-machine, the Silent King is back and he fancies humanity as fleshwear...

The IoM's current situation isn't solid. It is the opposite of solid. The only thing keeping it afloat is blatant plot armour because GW cannot kill their golden goose.

 Tyran wrote:
Cadia is gone, the galaxy has been torn in two by a giant Warp Rift, three massive Tyranid swarms are making a push into Solar Segmentum, there is an ascendant Chaos demi-god with a reality burrowing planet-machine, the Silent King is back and he fancies humanity as fleshwear...

The IoM's current situation isn't solid. It is the opposite of solid. The only thing keeping it afloat is blatant plot armour because GW cannot kill their golden goose.

The concept of the Imperium for years has always been '10 Minutes to Midnight' - this last bit was an overcorrection from GW trying to fix the Failbaddon issues.

But the Imperium will never win nor lose. That's the setting.

 Tyran wrote:
Cadia is gone, the galaxy has been torn in two by a giant Warp Rift, three massive Tyranid swarms are making a push into Solar Segmentum, there is an ascendant Chaos demi-god with a reality burrowing planet-machine, the Silent King is back and he fancies humanity as fleshwear...

The IoM's current situation isn't solid. It is the opposite of solid. The only thing keeping it afloat is blatant plot armour because GW cannot kill their golden goose.

The plot armour of the Imperium is, however, thinner than that protecting the Tau; the amount that had to shield and hide the Votaan for so long and probably thinner than that which keeps the Eldar and Dark Eldar being relevant at the galactic scale on the battlefield.


Heck about the only faction that isn't layered in plot armour is the Tyranids where the closest they get is the Swarmlord being able to hop back into the Hivemind and pop up somewhere else if he's killed (cause every big hero who wants to show off how big and heroic they are has to come fight the Swarmlord)

 Tyran wrote:
The only thing keeping it afloat is blatant plot armour because GW cannot kill their golden goose.

You appear to be confusing the Imperium with the Tau here.

And Orks.

Orks are irrepressible.

With little to no proper guidance for their fleets once in the Warp, they can pop out pretty much anywhere, and will inevitably look for a fight as soon as they do.

As for The Imperium? Despite recent dolorous blows? It still endures. Because its holdings are vast. It’s not something you can break with a single strike, unless you manage to sneak up on the Sol System with enough forces to total it.

You can grind it down, sure. But there’s still a huge amount to go in that grinder. Outside of Orks and Tyranids? Who has the numbers for that task?

Necrons I suppose, at least when enough are up and about. But right now, that’s not the case.

Imagine if the imperium were terrible bigots and actually made an attempt to get along with the other sentient species, they would have a bette chance of survival then but that would be boring

It's hard to have a wargame without war

That said the Imperium kind-of understands getting along; it just can't do it en-mass. Eg they will ally with other forces and have done so in the past.

Eldar, Orks, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons

The main issue is that in all those cases its basically isolated individuals and key events or battlefield alliances. So they, for the most part, all break down after the immediate need for the alliance ends.
Ultimately the Imperium has spent too long in dogma and is unable to escape its own rhetoric. The closest they can get is using alliances for self-gain.


We also have to be careful cause the "Imperium" is bonkers vast. We can have major systems allied with Xenos and trading with them, even working with them and it still doesn't go against the Imperium's Xenophobic state because the latter is the whole and the former is the exception.

Of the other major players? Tau may be about the only ones trustworthy.

Both flavours of Eldar will use The Imperium for selfish gain. And regularly do, by direct and indirect means.

Orks? Great, until they decide they want to fight you. And that can come as a result of tactical considerations, or because the Boyz are getting restless. Or because they just thought it was very, very funny.

Necrons? Given Phaerons may see you as equal and offer fair terms of treaty. Others, you’re just uppity Protozoa.

Kin? Remains to be seen. We know if they want to mine your world, your world is going to get mind, whether or not you chose to vacate.

And all of them are more often openly hostile against The Imperium. Even the Tau, for whom it’s Greater Good (I.e. join us, do it all exclusively our way) or Death.

Votaan so far haven't shown any real burning passion for any kind of galactic domination or conquest. Potentially they are more peaceful than Tau in terms of ideology. Votaan want to trade with you, so you've got to be around to trade with

Tau will work with other Xenos, but also very much want everyone under their rulership. This means that there's always a dark edge to their actions in "The Greater Good". Tau don't just want to trade and treat with you, Tau want to rule you - they are just wiling to accept your people, not you culture, into their own.

Eldar next comes Eldar - other races could live with Eldar, but you'd very much be conquered and serving their interests. Or if not you'd be entertainment. Modern Craftworld are a bit more reserved and a tiny bit more worldly, but they still want to be the lords and ladies of the universe. The rich upperclasses that the lower ones can't touch and who can do whatever they wish.

Of course they've a LONG way to go to get even close to that status again.

Dark Eldar are broadly the same only they'd happily torture you so they don't have to go to Slaanesh. In theory if they did defeat/lock away the Chaos Gods this might become less of an issue over time with the Dark Eldar.


Orks - the way I see it - Orks are a balancing force. They'll rise to be as strong as whatever the strongest thing is and then they'll fight that thing. Orks like a close fight, but ultimately they like to win. If nothing around them challenges them then they do it to themselves until something else bigger and badder comes along.
So in a sense you could get along with them, but you'd always be sport to them. Always.

Necrons - the only reason they'd keep other races around is to have as bodies for biotransferance. After that they are even more haughty than the Eldar and would happily extinguish all life in the Galaxy (after biotransferance).
They are similar to the Imperium in that they'd wipe out every other race, but with one difference. The Imperium does it through fear of other races; the Necrons do it because you're ants on their lawn and they are cleaning up the lawn.

Finally you've got Tyranids who not only want to wipe everything out, but also eat every bit of bio and mineral and gaseous matter in the galaxy and then leave. At least in so far as we are aware of their objectives that's what we assume their ultimate end goal might be.

 Overread wrote:

The plot armour of the Imperium is, however, thinner than that protecting the Tau; the amount that had to shield and hide the Votaan for so long and probably thinner than that which keeps the Eldar and Dark Eldar being relevant at the galactic scale on the battlefield.

Irrelevant whataboutism. The IoM as written is doomed against Tyranids and doomed against Necrons.

Once enough Tomb worlds awaken, the IoM dies. Once enough Tyranids enter the galaxy, the IoM dies.

And there is also BL writers often stating the IoM is also doomed against Chaos but admittedly I'm relying on author intent there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:


The concept of the Imperium for years has always been '10 Minutes to Midnight' - this last bit was an overcorrection from GW trying to fix the Failbaddon issues.

But the Imperium will never win nor lose. That's the setting.

Once upon a time people probably also believed that about Fantasy. Never say never.

The imperium will go were the eldar went.

Once the astronomican reaches critical mass of souls the psychic mass will collapse into itself opening the second eye of terror with the focal point on Earth, Sol System.

What's left of the Emperor will wake as the fifth Chaos God.
His domain will be tyranny, total obedience.

His main color will be faded yellow.

His lesser deamons will be black clad armored soldiers on fire. Legions of the damned.
Greater deamons will be winged angelic looking girls and one guy in armor. Living saints. But he's evil now so they will have like... bat wings. Yes.
Also his version of nurglings will either be flying skulls or flying babies. A coinflip.
Deamon princes will be crippled skeletal figures carried into battle sitting on some palanquin, chair or throne. Physically feeble but with vast psychic power and able to see, speak and act trough the faithful.

Majority of imperial worlds will be lost in the material warp meld inside the second eye.

Yes. That is absolutely how GW will run things.

No doubt.

AND THEN THE KROOT EMPIRE WILL ARISE