Are Imperial fliers space worthy? (Double Eagle and Imperial flier discussion)

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**Gert**

He got cloned. That's what Bad Batch ultimately built up to, Project Necromancer.

EU did it as well so it's not a Disney thing to bring the Emperor back to try another crack at making a Sith Empire.

**Kid_Kyoto**

I take this means everyone agrees there is air in Space in Star Wars?

**Dysartes**

No, Kid, no they don't - and no, there isn't.

**Tyran**

SW ships fly like aircraft, which only would make sense if there was air in space.

So SW space having some sort of gas or fluid kinda makes some amount of sense.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

There’s a place for Hard Sci-Fi. And that place isn’t All Of Sci-Fi.

**Insectum7**

Andykp wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I must be getting old and bitter. I just scowled when Abnett described the recoil of a laser weapon.
You see, it's a very dense cluster of photons. . .

While you are pondering this, can you also figure out how Chewbacca's Bowcaster worked in Star Wars?

Or all the “pew pew” noises in space battles in films or the sounds of space ships engines. Or one of the best noises in film, the sound d of bobba fetts mine thing! We don’t want scientifically accurate 40K, it’d be so dull!

Imo in a lot of cases the more "accurate" the depiction gets the more interesting it gets. All the "pew pew" is pretty easy to come by and a bit dry at this point. Whereas trying to "do it legit" often means new creative choices are made to keep things dramatic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:

I guess I wonder what the motivation is to suggest that nowhere in the Imperium has anybody ever achieved putting sensors on small spacecraft in order to gather intelligence. I assume there are already satellites in place for purposes of weather forecasting (most obviously for the purposes of farming or travel) and communications satellites to that it's easy to send messages between hemispheres, either for harmless coordination between sectors or for broadcasting religious propaganda from a central authority.

If it is of any help, we do actually have at least one example of the Imperium explicitly deploying a "sensor net" of satellites for the explicit purpose of enabling communication, and surveying both the weather and the approaching enemy. It's in chapter one of the novel Caves of Ice; the novel describes this as within the means of a random, non-military transport ship that the protagonists have requisitioned, and goes on to mention that the deployment of a "proper orbital sensor net" was something that a "real troopship" would be better equipped for, but then says that the jury-rigged, civilian version is capable enough to deliver all of the aforementioned stuff (for example, it provides images that are good enough that you can clearly mark out the ork horde and later on recognize titan-scale vehicles, although not individual orks).

Nice! Thanks for posting that reference.

**Da Boss**

On the laser recoil thing, photons do have momentum despite not having mass, because they have energy and mass is really mass-energy.

Recoil is caused by conservation of momentum, so lasers do in fact have recoil, though it is a very small amount because the change in momentum is very small.

Perhaps Abnett's super-lasers have sufficiently high energy to have significant recoil?

Heh. Be fun to work it out, you could figure out the energy of the laser weapon that way by making some assumptions about the mass of the gun.

But really the reason is that Abnett writes mostly historical war stories with a sprinkling of 40K, and to be honest, that's the way I like it!

**Andykp**

Insectum7 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I must be getting old and bitter. I just scowled when Abnett described the recoil of a laser weapon.
You see, it's a very dense cluster of photons. . .

While you are pondering this, can you also figure out how Chewbacca's Bowcaster worked in Star Wars?

Or all the “pew pew” noises in space battles in films or the sounds of space ships engines. Or one of the best noises in film, the sound d of bobba fetts mine thing! We don’t want scientifically accurate 40K, it’d be so dull!

Imo in a lot of cases the more "accurate" the depiction gets the more interesting it gets. All the "pew pew" is pretty easy to come by and a bit dry at this point. Whereas trying to "do it legit" often means new creative choices are made to keep things dramatic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:

I guess I wonder what the motivation is to suggest that nowhere in the Imperium has anybody ever achieved putting sensors on small spacecraft in order to gather intelligence. I assume there are already satellites in place for purposes of weather forecasting (most obviously for the purposes of farming or travel) and communications satellites to that it's easy to send messages between hemispheres, either for harmless coordination between sectors or for broadcasting religious propaganda from a central authority.

If it is of any help, we do actually have at least one example of the Imperium explicitly deploying a "sensor net" of satellites for the explicit purpose of enabling communication, and surveying both the weather and the approaching enemy. It's in chapter one of the novel Caves of Ice; the novel describes this as within the means of a random, non-military transport ship that the protagonists have requisitioned, and goes on to mention that the deployment of a "proper orbital sensor net" was something that a "real troopship" would be better equipped for, but then says that the jury-rigged, civilian version is capable enough to deliver all of the aforementioned stuff (for example, it provides images that are good enough that you can clearly mark out the ork horde and later on recognize titan-scale vehicles, although not individual orks).
Nice! Thanks for posting that reference.

I agree the more accurate sci-fi stories are interesting but that’s mostly because they stand out I think, interstellar was good to em, because it stood out from star wars and the like with is attempts at realism and showing how bonkers real physics is. But, I’ve watched star wars more often than interstellar!

**Kid_Kyoto**

In an effort to move things back on topic...

Yeah it's always hard to recreate a historical battle in sci fi or fantasy. The Battle of Britain (with a bit of the Pacific War and Dunkirk thrown in) can only happen if radar (et al) are not a thing. The Siege of the Emperor's Palace can only happen if you somehow handwave space ships, air craft, teleporters (etc) away.

We could nitpick the Deathstar Battle or Battle of Hoth endlessly.

But these things can be handwaved, and without much effort.

Radar is unreliable because of ion storms. Done. It only works when the plot requires it.

Horus can't just bomb the palace from orbit (or drop troops inside it) because there's a force field, so they have to fight a Medieval Siege but with giant robots and jet bikes. (The only problem is the siege went on 6 books too long and once the field started dropping in like book 2 it's harder to explain).

Star Wars did a really good job of this.

Why can't the X-Wings just fly straight at the exhaust port and shoot it vertically? It's ray shielded. Ray shields aren't a thing so we can't argue. It's ray shielded, you HAVE to fly down the trench. The dude with the beard said so.

Why did Death Star only launch 3 TIEs? Why not like, 300? Because Tarkin said several times the Rebels are no threat so Vader went out on his own. If fact Vader's tiny retinue only feeds the plot tension between him and the arrogant Imperial officers.

Why can't the Star Destroyers just bomb Echo Base? It has a force field and we have to land outside it (plus we want prisoners and intel).

But the handwaves are important. Every time I ask myself "why didn't radar pick up the 400 enemy bombers?" I just get knocked out of the story.

And before writing the sentence "the turret rocked from recoil from the heavy laser fire" ask yourself if you can just swap the word laser for autocannon?

Yeah. Sure, maybe the vacuum created by the superheated air is rocking the turret. Maybe the turret is venting cooling gas causing it to rock. Maybe the observer is really stressed and thinks he saw it rock from recoil. Or maybe the number of photons is SO GREAT it literally rocks the turret.

But if you want recoil, it is definitely easier and smoother to just replace the lasers with a ballistic weapon.

It ain't my job to explain obvious logical flaws, GW doesn't give out No Prizes like Marvel used to. It's the writer's job to keep me entertained and not knock me out of the story.

**Da Boss**

That is totally fair. I think if these things knock you out of the story the author has failed.

**Lord Damocles**

Laser weapons have/don't have recoil because there is no canon.
There; I is intellectual.

**Insectum7**

Andykp wrote:

I agree the more accurate sci-fi stories are interesting but that’s mostly because they stand out I think, interstellar was good to em, because it stood out from star wars and the like with is attempts at realism and showing how bonkers real physics is. But, I’ve watched star wars more often than interstellar!

Not to belabor the point, but imo Interstellar isn't really the same sort of entertainment category, so it makes sense that it doesn't get rewatched as much. I think a better counter example is Alien/Aliens, particularly that second one (which I've definitely watched more than Star Wars). The one thing that takes me out of that movie for being unexplained is how the queen tucked itself into the landing gear (?) of the dropship. But there's a bunch of stuff that gets explained through a bit of dialogue or visually. It's very dramatic but still does a pretty good job of retaining logical coherency, especially for a movie. Why don't they nuke it from orbit? Cooperate investment value. Why is there a ticking clock? Some soldier fired into delicate machinery. Why can't they bring down another dropship? Communications were damaged in the crash. etc, etc.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

So, flip side of this discussion?

Can the Space Superiority Fighters and Bombers operate within an atmosphere?

**Orkeosaurus**

Well they have wings so I guess they must.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Would it not depend on thrust ratio and overall weight and that?

If your wings are more mounting pylons for directional jets for Zero-G/No Atmosphere, there’s no guarantee they’d serve the necessary aerodynamic job of atmospheric flight.

**Orkeosaurus**

I thought of that but then I remembered the Thunderhawk so I don't know if that's valid in this universe.

**Insectum7**

They sure don't look aerodynamic. I kinda don't think it's an issue for Imperial craft. You get enough thrust going in the right directions any object can "fly".

**Kid_Kyoto**

Ok, all is redeemed by this description of fueling a plane

Jagdea did what all pilots have done since the beginning of aviation. She leaned over and flicked the glass dial with the fingers of her good hand. As with all pilots since the beginning of aviation, it made no difference.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh dear.

Approaching, the stalk tank started firing. Its heavy laser batteries recoiled and spat as they fired off volleys at the sheds.

Yeah that laser recoil sure is a problem...

**Lathe Biosas**

Maybe they are based upon the Rebellion's Planetary Ion Cannon.

**The_Real_Chris**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, flip side of this discussion?

Can the Space Superiority Fighters and Bombers operate within an atmosphere?

In one of the BL books they do, at least in a bombing role. This is a low tech overengineered universe, so I imagine they would, just with silly amounts of resource required compared to regular craft. I can't imagine they would dogfight well.

**Tsagualsa**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Would it not depend on thrust ratio and overall weight and that?

If your wings are more mounting pylons for directional jets for Zero-G/No Atmosphere, there’s no guarantee they’d serve the necessary aerodynamic job of atmospheric flight.

They have quasi-unlimited amounts of energy for thrust, so they need not necessarily be aerodynamic; the more interesting question is if they're heat-shielded/aerodynamic "enough" to make that a survivable experience for the crew. (It's the Imperium, the answer is "no, why would they need to?").

OTOH, there are stories that were written after (while, really)

Battlefleet Gothic

introduced the Imperial Navy fighters and bombers that feature Thunderbolts and Marauders in what would be their role. For example, Acceptable Losses (orignally published in 1998, just shy of BFG) is about a wing of Marauders doing a space bombing raid against a Space Hulk (and a couple of rokks) with several flights of Thunderbolts as an escort. I suspect it's a case of very bad editing, because it's consistent in naming and describing both types, and clearly not meant to actually describe the much larger BFG naval ordnance types.

Aboard the Divine Justice Captain Kaurl introduces Flight Commander Jaeger to his new posting as leader of Raptor Squadron, a Marauder Bomber wing and one with a reputation for bad discipline as well as general unworthiness. Jaeger decides that it will be up to him to train the men hard and bring them up to standards, which over time he does. After two months of space patrol for the Divine Justice and hard intensive training for Raptor, the vessel encounters the Imperial Retribution, a cruiser that has been obliterated by a nearby Ork space hulk of some considerable size. Having studied the details and made their judgements Admiral Veniston, commanding officer of the Divine Justice and Kaurl decide that the only way to defeat the hulk would be to attack it quickly from the rear by sending Raptor Squadron to attack, taking out an unidentified target. Raptor is launched and along the way they encounter Ork fighters as well as an Ork rok which they must kill or be killed. After finally reaching the target they discover it is a huge gun emplacement, protecting the engines of the ship. Raptor destroy it with their torpedoes and are told to return to the Divine Justice. Wondering how the destruction of a gun turret would help destroy the hulk they discover that Devil squadron has been sent in to take care of the hulks engines. Angry that Devil should get all the glory, the remainder of Raptor join them.

Later back aboard the Divine Justice Jaeger enters the briefing room to hear Veniston declare that the mission was a success with acceptable losses, which upon witnessing Jaeger loses his cool and confronts Veniston and Kaurl over the fact that he lost 15 men whilst Devil sat back in the second attack wave, letting his squad take all the punishment before flying in to take all the glory. He then goes on to say that Veniston favours Devil because his nephew is her flight commander. Veniston leaves without a word, whilst Kaurl orders Jaeger to the brig. During the journey he takes him into a side alcove and shows him the 21 coffins of those lost during the assault, 6 from Devil squadron including Veniston's nephew. Upon realising this Jaeger is remorseful for his actions earlier. Kaurl goes on to explain that without the destruction of the gun turret then any attack on the engines was futile and if all of Raptor and Devil had been sent against the turret then there may not have been enough ships to attack the engines. Once in the brig, Jaeger meets Veniston who asks him to always trust in his superiors as no mission he'd flown or commanded had even been wasted in the Emperors name. After he leaves, Jaeger realises that he wears the same gloves he does, with the same symbol of Raptor squadron on them.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Into_the_Maelstrom_(Anthology)#Acceptable_Losses

**Quixote**

Everything can fly and everything can land.

Now. If you want controlled flying and a survivable landing- that's a different beast all together.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, flip side of this discussion?

Can the Space Superiority Fighters and Bombers operate within an atmosphere?

For the more high tech universes like Star Wars I assume that ships with the aerodynamics of a brick (looking at you Federation shuttlecraft, yes, all of you) are using anti-gravity and maybe an invisible aerodynamic force field to fly.

For 40k, even though anti-grav exists it's never really mentioned in the context of getting shuttles and fighters airborne. 40k just uses unlimited thrust, which raises the question of why do they need to refuel if they have this unlimited thrust technology...

Point being, I can go with Thunderbolts-et al can fly in space but are not great at it (though there may be variants that are). Fury Interceptors-et al can fly in the atmosphere but are not great at it (though there may be variants that are).

Finished Double Eagle, satisfying ending. The nice thing about a one and done style book is no one is guaranteed safe, not even the dude with his name on the cover (oh, uh, spoilers).

**Lord Damocles**

In Battlefleet Gothic ground-based defences could launch attack craft against ships in space, so presumably they must be able to operate to some degree in atmosphere.

**Orkeosaurus**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, flip side of this discussion?

Can the Space Superiority Fighters and Bombers operate within an atmosphere?

For the more high tech universes like Star Wars I assume that ships with the aerodynamics of a brick (looking at you Federation shuttlecraft, yes, all of you) are using anti-gravity and maybe an invisible aerodynamic force field to fly.

For 40k, even though anti-grav exists it's never really mentioned in the context of getting shuttles and fighters airborne. 40k just uses unlimited thrust, which raises the question of why do they need to refuel if they have this unlimited thrust technology...

Point being, I can go with Thunderbolts-et al can fly in space but are not great at it (though there may be variants that are). Fury Interceptors-et al can fly in the atmosphere but are not great at it (though there may be variants that are).

Finished Double Eagle, satisfying ending. The nice thing about a one and done style book is no one is guaranteed safe, not even the dude with his name on the cover (oh, uh, spoilers).

Dan Abnett dies in his own book?

**Kid_Kyoto**

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Dan Abnett dies in his own book?

Decapitated by the prop on a spacewar fighter, while reloading the MGs.

Very tragic.

No obviously I mean Captain EE Eagle, who manages to die twice in the book which is pretty impressive.

**Andykp**

For a one and done book the sequel is pretty good.