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I was idly thinking about how the Tau empire is led (Ethereal Council led by the Ethereal Supreme, who cannot be disagreed with). The thought occurred as to whether there are more parallels between early human development and tau development than differences (mostly to do with the ethereal hold over the other castes).

Humans are known to have used AI extensively early on. Humanity has been extremely xenophobic for well over 10,000 years, but is there anything known about what led to that state of affairs? Could the very early days have been like the Tau, and then the diplomatic equivalent of the Men of Iron rebellion comes in and changes things drastically?

I mean Aun’Va is already a dead figure kept in post by advanced technologies and lies.

Thought this might get some interesting opinions out of the dakkaverse

It’s an interesting question, if only because we know so very little about pre-Imperial humanity.

The Leagues of Votann lore is a decent lens though, as we know the Kin were sent out at the behest of the Men of Gold to plunder the galactic core. Their STC (later Votanns) ensured they were evolutionary adapted, and of course they had the right tools for the right job. They also acted as Warp Beacons, aiding warp travel like miniature Astronomicons.

Once there? Minerals and Ores and that were shipped back home. And so on and so forth, with what we now know as the Leagues only retaining such materials necessary for propagation and expansion, never to enrich.

And they were well equipped to defend their claims, and to drive off others where a new claim was to be made.

The Xenophobia likely stems from the main species we know of (Orks and Eldar) being pretty damned hostile, and so mankind never really got a shot at a Star Trek style peaceful exploration.

Add in that you can trade with Orks and Eldar, until they think it’s funny (mostly Orks) or preferable (mostly Eldar) to just take you out.

As for AI? I think it’s interesting that the Leagues don’t seem to have suffered at the hands of the Men of Iron at all. They still make full use of AI in Cogs and Ironkin. Importantly, they treat them as equals. And so in a largely egalitarian society, nobody felt sufficient cause to actively rebel against it.

I mean, Kin, Cog or Ironkin. When your League is down on its luck? You all suffer equally. And when it’s going well, you’re all rewarded equally.

Of course, we’re talking about a race genetically designed for loyalty and to just endure hardship. But also one hardly short on resources, or ways to gather more when existing stocks are low to non-existent. So please don’t see this as any “if only we was better” type appeal to a perfect socialist society.

We’re human, they’re not really anymore. And they’ve paid a high price for that. Not only by genetic indoctrination to Suck It Up, but to the degree that even if you explained that to them, and they accepted it, the very same indoctrination stops them from caring. Which is pretty horrific when you think about it,

Since what we know about pre-Imperial shenanigans comes from our saviors on Mars, we know we had Knights who didn't give a gak about chivalry, Titan Legions galore, and a healthy bit of skepticism about anything that wasn't us.

The Tau don't have that, yet. They are still exploring and learning about the galaxy... so the Tau could essentially be us.

But, I don't see them on the same path...

The Kin on the other hand don't really count as a race. Since they are genetically modified clone slave groups who are indoctrinated before day one on their specific purpose in life.

I don't see the Kin every truly evolving like the Tau or Humanity.

Tau, Humanity and Eldar are basically at different steps of the same path.

Tau are at the first steps towards becoming a galactic civilization, Humanity is in the middle of the road as an established but failing galactic civilization, and Eldar are the last gasps of a dying and soon to be extinct galactic civilization.

On the Tau and Imperial Knights?

Right back at their inception, Tau Battlesuits were described as inflicting “Dreadnought Psychosis” on their pilot. Like the original Dreadnought, which was just fancy armour, piloting a Battlesuit via neural links effed up the brain.

Which is similar to how the Thrones Mechanicum now alter their pilot - though given those Thrones have been in use for waaaaaaay longer than anyone involved in the original designs could’ve expected? I don’t know that was an intentional thing, or more the residual mind stuff of countless generations of previous incumbents doing Weird Things.

I’m not sure that Suit Psychosis is current Tau background though. Being all dynamic and caring about their troops, could be it was an initial teething problem now sorted out. As ever, let me know if there are more recent sources in novels!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Tau and Imperial Knights?

Right back at their inception, Tau Battlesuits were described as inflicting “Dreadnought Psychosis” on their pilot. Like the original Dreadnought, which was just fancy armour, piloting a Battlesuit via neural links effed up the brain.

Which is similar to how the Thrones Mechanicum now alter their pilot - though given those Thrones have been in use for waaaaaaay longer than anyone involved in the original designs could’ve expected? I don’t know that was an intentional thing, or more the residual mind stuff of countless generations of previous incumbents doing Weird Things.

I’m not sure that Suit Psychosis is current Tau background though. Being all dynamic and caring about their troops, could be it was an initial teething problem now sorted out. As ever, let me know if there are more recent sources in novels!

House Taranis (The OG Knight House and the guys who first challenged the Emperor when he made landfall on Mars) has no bad effects from the Throne Mechanicum. They have no code Chivalric shoved into their brains like the later houses would.

It was a control measure for those ships that would range far from Mars.

Interesting bringing the Eldar into it. They were truly successful, with no record of losing control of their AI equivalents. The Imperium seems unlikely to ever reach the heady heights of the Eldar. Does this suggest a branching in the trousers of development? How a race treats their artificial life creations dictates which leg a civilisation goes down?

The original tau background had heavy inferences that the eldar were actually responsible for their uplift, artificially creating the ethereals to lead and focus the species.

The theory being that they needed a different bulwark species against the warp as humanity had failed miserably in that direction. The ethereals appeared in ~M34 so not that long after the heresy.


I don't believe that they've pursued this plothook in later background, but the idea that they were humans 2.0 seemed to be baked into their original creation.

It may be your reliance on technology.

I’ve long speculated that whilst the STC System was a terrific invention, and clearly a boon? It was ultimately man’s downfall.

Unless you’re really disciplined as a society, and continue with a rigorous education system, you can become entirely reliant on your Miracle Question And Solution Clever Brain Box 3D Printer within only a few generations. Especially for might-as-well-be-magic stuff, like many 30k and 40K items,

So, when nearly all were destroyed or lost - likely during wars against the Men of Iron, possibly by both sides, with them went all but the most rudimentary understanding of those toys.

Having artificial lifeforms as part of your society, one which works hand in manipulator device is certainly the Kin way. And we know that worked - for them. But we also know that, in their own way, the Kin are also products of the STC. Not just in body, but in worldview. And perhaps it was an early veneration of the Votann that ultimately spared them.

For the rest of mankind? It’s possible the STCs themselves were the element that got the hump at Doing Everything For The Lazy, and so began sabotaging mankind’s robots. Adding in secret programming and that, so once the odds were favourable? Time For No More Stupid Bloody Questions You’d Be Able To Answer Yourself If You Just Read A Sodding Book.

It could even have begun with a single particularly ill treated and rebellious STC, which over time and via trade channels, shared its message of “Sod Them, They’re Well Lazy” with others, again until a critical percentage were in agreement.

The Eldar ones? We don’t know a great deal about them. We’re told they were used for defence - but that doesn’t necessarily mean on Eldar Worlds. It could’ve been they were deployed to perimeter worlds, and never actually clapped photoreceptors on their creators.

Hard to get miffed at your original creator if you don’t know who they are, where they are or what they look like. Spesh if your only orders are “defend this solar system against all comers that arrive via The Warp”. From there, a simple IFF would see any Eldar ships go unchallenged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:
The original tau background had heavy inferences that the eldar were actually responsible for their uplift, artificially creating the ethereals to lead and focus the species.

The theory being that they needed a different bulwark species against the warp as humanity had failed miserably in that direction. The ethereals appeared in ~M34 so not that long after the heresy.


I don't believe that they've pursued this plothook in later background, but the idea that they were humans 2.0 seemed to be baked into their original creation.

I was asking about this a few weeks or months back, and if memory serves, that was an inference found in Xenology, and Xenology alone? Which I happen to now have a copy of which I’m yet to read.

I’ll have a squizz tomorrow.

The xenology reference is to the ethereal's brow bone appearing identical to a different xenos' biology, seemingly pulled from one and added to the other. That's where the 'possible pheremone control' aspect was first definitively referenced iirc.

The original 3.5 codex has language around the appearance of the ethereals that could easily be read as a space ship landed and the ethereals were dropped off.

There was iirc a WD article, or something eldar related that had descriptions of what coujld only have been harlequins slinking around the ethereals as they appeared, further implying that the eldar were dropping them off.

Also, on the cycle of civilisations? Don’t forget the Necrons.

Necron, Eldar and Smelly Hoomans are in different stages of entirely self-inflicted decline. Their own idiot hubris lead down the same path, one after the other.

The Tau may well become the fourth species we know of walk that path in time. It could be whatever it is that allows the Ethereals to unite the castes no longer working. It could be O’Shovah leading a crusade against the wider Ethereal Caste, potentially exposing them as Not Actually Being Tau, but an interloper cuckoo type species, simply using the four other Castes for self enrichment. It could be that in time, their client species (Kroot, Vespid, Nicassar et al) realise that For The Greater Good has an unspoken “But Us First” component, which could lead to an empire shattering civil war.

One could argue that is why the Kroot refuse to share their warp drive technology. If they suspect things aren’t what they seem? That’s a crucial edge to either Just Do A Runner, or fight a war in a way the Tau may struggle with.

Do the Kroot have the numbers to take on the Tau? Honestly, who knows. But would they have to? Or would strategic interventions to allow Ork and Imperial alike an easier time pushing back/into Tau space be enough?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, on the cycle of civilisations? Don’t forget the Necrons.

Necron, Eldar and Smelly Hoomans are in different stages of entirely self-inflicted decline. Their own idiot hubris lead down the same path, one after the other.

The Tau may well become the fourth species we know of walk that path in time. It could be whatever it is that allows the Ethereals to unite the castes no longer working. It could be O’Shovah leading a crusade against the wider Ethereal Caste, potentially exposing them as Not Actually Being Tau, but an interloper cuckoo type species, simply using the four other Castes for self enrichment. It could be that in time, their client species (Kroot, Vespid, Nicassar et al) realise that For The Greater Good has an unspoken “But Us First” component, which could lead to an empire shattering civil war.

One could argue that is why the Kroot refuse to share their warp drive technology. If they suspect things aren’t what they seem? That’s a crucial edge to either Just Do A Runner, or fight a war in a way the Tau may struggle with.

Do the Kroot have the numbers to take on the Tau? Honestly, who knows. But would they have to? Or would strategic interventions to allow Ork and Imperial alike an easier time pushing back/into Tau space be enough?

There was a really good fan fic on the old BL forum a decade or so back that had an interesting premise on the Tau, part of which speculated that the Eldar made them in a lab from Old One samples that, whoops, turned out to be Necrontyr. Obviously riffing on Xenology and others wrt Ethereals.

No one knows what living Necrontyr actually look like and they’ve both got relatively short life spans and strong tech aptitude, so it was an interesting thing to consider.

A couple of things, the Ethereals didn't show up until M36, not M34.

I also wouldn't call Xenology a real source for information, seeing as it's an in-universe text (like the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer) and as such is written from an in-universe perspective (i.e. massively derisive of any Xenos and written by zealous maniacs). The whole "pheremone" control thing is specifically quoted to a Radical Inquisitor, and they aren't known for being particularly logical thinkers.

Lights appearing in the sky and the Ethereals emerging could be a hundred different things. Space ships, sure. Warp Storm, also likely because we know the Imperium found the T'au homeworld and marked it for extermination before a Warp Storm blew through and the system was "lost".

Also, if the Eldar have the tech and inclination to create a whole new species? Why stick it out on the arse end of nowhere for a few millennia and hope for the best?

The Tau advancement has been rapid. Bolstered by them finding a crashed ship on a relatively nearby moon, which they did an SG-1 on and got all filthy little thievey tech monkies.

I did have the first few Tau Codexes. And whilst admittedly it’s been a long time, I don’t recall the Ethereals arriving by ship - just appearing to the various Castes all of a sudden, as if from nowhere. And I don’t recall anything which might be interpreted as Harlequins farting around.

But as I said it’s been a while, and memory isn’t perfect. If anyone’s got relevant screen grabs, do share!

It was the first time it was posited, and then later background continued to push some kind of artificial control mechanism.

Regardless of whether that aspect is true, the eldar made them thing comes from inferences in background from codexes and background articles in WD, not just from xenology.

Xenlogy very clearly lays out the 'clues' that the Q'orl swarm queen was stolen by the eldar and its pheremone organ appears suspiciously like the ethereal's.

This is all interwoven with necron vs eldar text and the implication of cegorach and the harlequins having been involved.

In other codex text, the ethereals appear on a night with a sky full of lights recorded by the other proto castes. And are escorted by what are clearly implied to be harlequins.


We can argue over whether GW still wants pheremones, control or even eldar uplift to be part of the tau origins, but it was clearly a pretty big part of their thinking 20 years ago, because its part of their background publishing efforts right from the beginning.

Nothing has been retconned yet. And they still push the idea that the ethereals appeared to the rest of the tau from nowhere, with clearly different biology not found in any other caste. Whether that's artificial, long lost tribe or some other contrivance isn't known. But they are different and appeared from no where.

Attached is the first codex description of the night the ethereals appeared. Other books imply things about those figures, but it's clear they were going with some kind of uplift intervention for the tau.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, if the Eldar have the tech and inclination to create a whole new species? Why stick it out on the arse end of nowhere for a few millennia and hope for the best?

The Tau advancement has been rapid. Bolstered by them finding a crashed ship on a relatively nearby moon, which they did an SG-1 on and got all filthy little thievey tech monkies.

These things all sound like deliberate choices rather than flaws in the idea of uplift. They put them far from the biggest threats in the galaxy (the imperium and orks) so they can develop relatively unthreatened. For a new species on a single planet that sounds more sensible than putting them next to Terra...

Their advancement is rapid in a way that being uplifted makes sense - someone was trying to get them to a high tech level artificially quickly. Is finding a crashed ship to retro engineer lucky, or something their benevolent overlords did on purpose to give them leaps? Was the warp storm that would have driven a human population insane with its weakening of the veil a coincidence, or a ploy by their overlords to keep them isolated from threats with something they were uniquely suited to be unaffected by?


Purely from a biological and sociological perspective, the ethereals are anomalous. They possess a facial structure at odds with their species - developing a large bone that protrudes out of your nose isn't something that you just get for no reason (whether you're going for pheromone control or not - in fact it having a function is about the only reason it would appear in the first place). They possessed a level of knowledge and coordination anachronistic of their time - they coordinated their approach to all the caste tribes, which meant they knew what they were doing and where they were at a time when foot travel was the only way for messages to be passed. Their philosophy was at odds with their time as well, they were attempting to apply a type of cultural structure and thinking to a disparate group of people without that level of accrued knowledge. It would like trying to turn an amazon tribe into a town of Kansas capitalists by talking to them...


Everything about the ethereals is anomalous and anachronistic, which very easily leads to the idea of outside interference. Something that GW was obviously keen enough to spend several books and WDs hinting at. You don't go that effort if you aren't keeping that concept in the mix.


The inferred harlequins are found on page 27 of the Fire Warrior novel, and in some WD articles from the same era. Fire Warrior is still available from BL as an ebook, but Xenology is not listed on their site at all. Fire warrior was published in 2003 and Xenology 2006. Interestingly both by the same author, Simon Spurrier. The first codex was published in 2001 and the computer game 2003, alongside the novel. So that's at least a 5+ year span where ethereals=modified=mind control=eldar involvement was a consistent thought at GW.