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Cheating has reared its ugly head again, and I think the best way to deal with it is by discussing it openly.

Now, cheating is something that a majority of people have done at least once in the past (mainly when they are young and don't want to lose at Old Maid).

But in the land of expensive tournaments (where hundreds of dollars and hours are spent investing in an army, not including travel, hotels, rental cars, entry fees and food...

Someone cheating can cost you and others a lot... but how to deal with it?


So I'm going to ask four questions... that all revolve around playing in a tournament (or campaign/crusade/what-have-you).


1. You are in the fourth turn when you notice that an infantry model that you destroyed earlier has made its way back onto the tabletop as part of another squad.

You know this for sure, because you liked the paint scheme of that model in particular.

It could've been a mistake or intentional, what's the best way of dealing with this?


2. You overhear someone in a game next to yours say something that is wrong.

The guy next to you has almost the exact same army as you. You know what it can and cannot do.

And he has just told his opponent that one of the units has a special ability that you know for certain, it cannot gain.

Do you interject in this other game? Or just keep focused on your own game?


3. It's a lunch break and you are doing decently, won more than you've lost and you are looking over your army list trying to figure our what would've worked better when you notice something.

You have more models than you wrote down on your army list. "It's just one transport that hasn't done anything in the tournament so far," you tell yourself.

Do you confess to the TOs, simply remove the offending model from any further games, or something else entirely?


4. What should be the penalty for any of these offenses (if any)?

1) "That's odd.. I thought I killed him already...."

2) Never tried tournament play, but I would assume if I ever did that I'd learn my army thoroughly and get a good grounding in the rest - so - for me - I'd probably focus on my own game - and give the cheater 0 sportsmanship points - if that's still a thing. Alternatively I |MIGHT call in a judge - but I'd want to be sure of my facts.

3) Confess

4) For 1) if the subsequent conversation suggests an error, the play should remove him, apologise and carry on.

2) If the latter path, up to judge / TO

3) accept the possibility of disqualification and be the GOOD that guy.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
But in the land of expensive tournaments (where hundreds of dollars and hours are spent investing in an army, not including travel, hotels, rental cars, entry fees and food...

Someone cheating can cost you and others a lot... but how to deal with it?

So I want to push back on this a bit because it keeps coming up but its got a real "think of the children" vibe to me.

First thing, no one is really profiting from tournament attendance. Whatever you spend on your army is for your personal enjoyment and will not be compensated for in prize support. You buy this stuff for you, not for potential gain. There was definitely an era where people dreamed of minis going the way of eSports, but realistically they are going the way of eSports without actually having a blip of notoriety first

I say this because its important to remember that events are an entertainment experience you are paying to extract enjoyment out of and anything that negatively impacts it is akin to a belligerent attendee at a concert or sporting event. It's unfortunate and important that the event organizers do what they can to prevent these kinds of issues, but ultimately you are subjecting yourself to the public and the risk of unpleasant behavior that entails.

Part of the reason that's important is a lot of how you respond to things depends on who you're dealing with. Is my opponent communicating with me. Is there a rapport or am I forced to pry information from them? Like for #1. Did I compliment the paint job earlier? If I had, I've got an obvious route to point him out.

For #2, in the context of a tournament, its generally not possible to inject yourself in another game without taking time and attention from your own and honestly, you might be missing some bit of how it works or just might be doing it wrong yourself. While not ideal, if you're really certain about it, talking to a judge after the round is a good way to make them aware of the player for future rounds.

#3 you go to the judge and forfeit your games. I have had players do so while bringing the player they cheated along so I can correct their scores. Depends on the environment and judging it might be fine to keep playing in the losers bracket, but that's ultimately up to the judges and players involved. It's hard to accomodate at larger events, but smaller ones most people would be happier getting a game in against a humble cheater than sit on their hands for 3 hours with a bye.

#4 So, the main thing to realize is most players at an event don't really know what they're doing. There is as much learning going in tournament games as there is on demo nights. Correcting mistakes is always the first step and then you have to see how the player reacts. Most people make honest mistakes and try to improve. Some don't and need to be removed from the event. Generally that doesn't fix things, but unless there's clearly no excuse like fixed dice, I'll give them another chance before any sort of long term ban. It should go without saying that once you're on the judge's radar though, they're spending a lot more of their attention on you than before.

Quick bonus #5. It's really important that players see judges as a community resource and not enforcement. If players disagree on a rule, call the judge. If a measurement is close, call the judge. If models have to move in a weird way, call the judge. The big mistake most people make is calling the judge after the game is in a state where they can't resolve it objectively. The more involved the judging staff is, the easier it is to root out problems without needing a witch hunt.

#1: You need to bring it up at the first possible opportunity. You don't have to be confrontational about it, but anything you're unsure of or that may be cheating needs to be mentioned ASAP so corrections can be made before they affect the game state more than they have so far. If your opponent is adamant they're doing nothing wrong you call a judge and explain the situation and get them to make a ruling.

#2: Don't get involved. All too often I see people get involved in games without proper context and all it does is derail the game for the people actually playing it. At most you may want to chat to the player who you think was wronged after the game, but getting involved in other people's games is usually frowned upon.

#3: Confess and accept whatever judgement the TO hands out.

#4: The penalty depends on the offense. One thing I think tournament 40k is really bad at is understanding that applying a penalty is not the same as determining intent. If you've messed up then a penalty should be applied and ideally those penalties should be set out in the tournament pack. Those are minimum penalties and the TO should be free to increase them if they believe that's necessary. For example, a recent large tournament had a player disqualified for having an extra model in their army that wasn't in their list. In that case the minimum penalty would likely be a game loss for each game the incorrect list was used. If the TO decides it was an honest mistake that's the end of it. If they decide it was a malicious attempt at cheating a harsher penalty can be applied. That way, you can get an immediate ruling without worrying about intent, or cheating versus sloppiness, etc. Then you have options for how to escalate if needed.

MTG does this pretty well, with a whole host of infractions having basic penalties applying to them. Judges then have other options based on player behaviour or past player penalties.

1. You ask them directly, but give them an out. "I'm certain I killed that model. Is there a reason it's on the board again?" That puts it back on them. "Sorry, I must not have taken it off the table." Or, they double down "Nuh-uh!" and you call a judge over.

2. At a tournament, I wouldn't say anything during the game. That's not my table, not my place. I would probably ask the player after. "Hey, I didn't know Sgt. Bob had that ability. Did I miss an FAQ?" Again, direct question, but give an out. They might have editions mixed up or something was changed in their new book and they forgot.

3. Immediately go to the tournament organizers, tell them your mistake, and offer to withdraw from the competition. They should vacate your wins for your opponents' benefit. If they tell you that you can stay if you fix your list to what it's supposed to be, that's up to you to continue.

4. Penalties would be difficult for 1. It could be a simple mistake. They set it aside, intending to put it on their tray after resolving something, but forgot. Unlikely, but possible. I think a warning from a judge, assuming they got involved, should be enough for that person to knock it off if they were trying to pull something intentional. Judge should check their table during the next event a few times and make sure their opponent isn't having a similar experience. Penalty similar to 2, below.

2. If you talked to the person (after the game!) and they confirmed that they really believe their rule worked that way and can't show you the exact rule, then you talk to a judge about what you saw. Let them handle it. As a judge, again, I'd give that person a warning and then make sure to walk by that table during the next game and ensure it's played correctly. If NOT: vacate wins, remove the player from the event, and suspension from future events for 1 year.

3. Assuming you came to the judge before the tournament was over. Vacate wins. Ask the player to remove themselves from the event. Move on. Assuming this came to the judges attention after the event from a 3rd party and was confirmed: Vacate wins, suspension from future events for 1 year.

I encourage it. If you aren't cheating you aren't trying!






/S

I wouldn't say cheating has ever gone away to be honest.

1. Offer them to withdraw the model, if they refuse, call the judge/TO.

2. Unlikely to ever happen in a tournament setting given the timing and intensity, but interjecting is generally not advised during a game. Bring it up afterwards sure.

3. Again, this is so unlikely to ever happen in a tournament given the fact that it is standard procedure to walk through lists upon meeting your opponent, so that extra transport would be caught immediately, and I'd seriously question why you didn't read your own list and pack appropriately. If it did happen, you confess and take the DQ/Game losses.

This has happened against me in casual pick-up games though, once with mates (autistic friend accidentally brought 250 extra points lol), a few times with randoms. With mates you just re-rack if it's early enough, with randoms you just have to case-by-case it. I have generally not bothered to restart a game and just pack up if it has impacted the game.

4. You can't really make a broad-brush statement about the above. 1: May or may not be a mistake and a warning from the judge should suffice. 2: You let the judge/TO decide, but it does impact a game and they should probably take the Loss for it. 3: You take the DQ/Losses, your name gets flagged for the next tournament you enter.

5. Bonus point - I tend to call a Judge/TO if I see any kind of commentary/coaching in my games. Even if it is an innocent comment from a bystander, shut the feth up. Similarly, dice rolling (a big thing people moan about in Blood Bowl) is something you give a gentle nudge about, then call a TO if that doesn't change.

These questions were not limited to GW games/tournaments.

The question of the extra transport has come up a bunch of times Flames of War games.

A lot of units like to come with unarmed and unarmored vehicles (like wagons and Deuce-and-a-half trucks) that you usually just pile up on your board edge, knowing that they are essentially pretty scenery you've brought with you to the game.

1. If that model is the best painted one of that type they have, they might have just swapped out a crappily painted one for it. I'd probably give them the benefit of the doubt, as long as it is an isolated case.

2. Maybe speak to them after the game. Might depend on what else I knew about them, or the vibe I got. If not, maybe speak to someone who knows them better.

3. Tell the TO, tell my opponents, let them decide what I should do. (I've actually done something very similar to this at a narrative event. No-one actually was too worried, as they still had fun. I felt terrible

4. In the first instance, warnings (or suspended sentences if a severe violation). Subsequent violations need sanctions.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
These questions were not limited to GW games/tournaments.

The question of the extra transport has come up a bunch of times Flames of War games.

A lot of units like to come with unarmed and unarmored vehicles (like wagons and Deuce-and-a-half trucks) that you usually just pile up on your board edge, knowing that they are essentially pretty scenery you've brought with you to the game.

Not sure I understand but surely a token would rectify that issue? Superfluous models should either be clearly marked or just not there at all. A list check prior to the game fixes that issue regardless of the system.

In general, I would want to play a game in such a low-stakes "we're just trying to have fun" kind of way, that it wouldn't make sense to try and "cheat" during that game. If my opponent does cheat, I'd just talk to him or her about it, or ask if I can have a cheat to get a bonus to balance it out or something.

There’s always the Finger Nippers as a last resort.

They a Grotsnik Corp Product. And we assure you they’re more than just Rusty Shears.

Grotsnik Corp. Would we lie to you?

It really depends to me. Many things can be honest mistakes and to me at least, cheating implies it being intentional. And mistakes can happen all too easily. But to go into the examples.

1) This could easily be an honest mistake so I'd say something like: "Hey, didn't that guy over there get removed already?" and it should be resolved all too easily. If I had accidentally not removed a figure I'd be pretty ashamed, of course, and apologise. And of course look at how to rectify it and offer that anything killed by the unit since that happened should be returned to the table. And probably remove the whole unit or something like that. If my opponent did it and raised a stink, that would reflect pretty poorly on them and I wouldn't play them anymore. But that's the luxury of not being a tournament player.

2) Here, I wouldn't say anything. I mean, we all know how complex many rules are and mistakes can happen very, very easily. If I were to get interrupted in my game by someone playing next to me it would be annoying, sure. After all, they might very well be mistaken. But if I was making a mistake, I would just thank them. and correct things. If it happened to my opponent I would be annoyed, of course, and quickly look it up together and correct things.

3) This really depends on the system and everything. In most games, you would notice very quickly that you brought a whole extra unit or the like. At least, if you have any idea about your army. But then again, if it's another line battalion or the like, you could miss it. That said, it depends a lot on how significant it is. Of course, it would mean apologising to my opponents, but with my skill level, that means that they would rather get to feel better about themselves because they beat a larger army.

For #1 and #2 I'd bring them up to clarify. Maybe the nice figure was swapped out or there was 2 of them, and maybe there's a rule nuance I missed.


For #3 it'd depend how far into the tournament exactly and how consequential it'd been. If it was likely to have impacted the outcome of a game I'd find the organiser and cede to my opponent, but if it did nothing I'd probably just fix the error for the next game.