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How do!

Just been spinning my chin in the background section, and as so often happens? A further thought has been shaken loose. And that’s to do with recruitment into the Imperial Guard.

Whilst the canonical Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer shows quite considerable lies are told to recruits? For many Imperial Citizens, being successfully recruited into the Guard is their best shot at a ticket to glory, and a far better life. One day you’re a mook among untold billions on your world. For Hive Worlds in particular? Making the grade offers a demonstrably better life. If you were in a Gang? You’re no stranger to using a little muscle and might making right. And you’re probably not in much more danger of life in the Guard than running with your crew.

But at least in the Guard? You rarely need to worry about finding enough to eat and drink. Nor will you really have to scrabble around for ammo and spare parts. Heck, even your clothes are unlikely to be hand me downs.

We know Guard training is pretty intensive. Mostly to ensure the Regiment fights as a whole as efficiently as possible. And to follow that training (in theory at least) helps maximise your own chances of survival.

It’s also apparent that experienced Gang Fighters are somewhat prized within the Guard. You’ve a proven track record of battle and survival. You’re also likely to not only be able to conceive unorthodox tactics? But actually have some reasonable chance of pulling them off.

So where are the rules for such Regiments? Ones comprised of hardened fighters turned professional and hammered into a far more effective force? We’ve plenty from global warrior cultures. But none covering that other unique brand of freshly uniform Nutters.

Surely we need that? There’s even a fabled Regiment ready to be exploited there, in the form of the Necromunda 8th “The Spiders”. One of the earliest, if not the earliest Guard regiment to receive some level of official uniform codification for the game.

Not exactly Veterans from the get go. But dirty fighters every man, woman and child of them.

I was under the impression (possibly from Rogue trader), that your WS 3, BS 3 guy was a highly trained soldier. If you wanted regular PDF it was more like WS2, BS2 stuff.

Did in fact run a few interlinked battles where the Guard player had to achieve the objective while fighting through those sorts of troops.

You must be mistaken, Doc - there's only three types of Imperial Guard nowadays. Those with a Catachan heritage, those with a Cadian heritage, and those with a Krieg heritage.

Ignore the fact there have been sculpts in a different material for around another half-dozen or so over the years. /sarcasm

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I was under the impression (possibly from Rogue trader), that your WS 3, BS 3 guy was a highly trained soldier. If you wanted regular PDF it was more like WS2, BS2 stuff.

Yep - and for a few more editions Conscripts were WS2 / BS2 (and veterans were WS3 / BS4).

Don't forget the Penal Legions, where you get your free Remotely activated Bomb Collar!

I suspect the average hive ganger, does not really care either. They may be blissfully unaware of the wider galaxy outside their individual hive, and if they do know much, they probably don't care enough about the imperium to want to be cannon fodder for them.


Getting a regiment worth of hive gangers all at once to form into a regiment, even finding them, may not be all that easy. They are more likely to fight against, and loot, any recruiters sent down into their domains than sign up willingly I would imagine. The losses trying to force the issue probably aren't worth the hassle.

Guardsmen sent as part of a planetary tithe are likely going to be 'promoted' PDF troops, some of whom depending on the world may be volunteers or voluntold. Much like in modern times, the conscripted ones they drag up are still more likely to be people on record with some authority or other. The nameless, faceless gangers would probably only end up in the guard as having been former prisoners - somehow bringing them to the attention of Planetary or Imperial authorities. These ones would likely have a good chance of surviving and potentially thriving though.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I was under the impression (possibly from Rogue trader), that your WS 3, BS 3 guy was a highly trained soldier. If you wanted regular PDF it was more like WS2, BS2 stuff.

Did in fact run a few interlinked battles where the Guard player had to achieve the objective while fighting through those sorts of troops.

See, those stats can be interpreted beyond “hurr hurr poor shots”.

Consider a Regiment recruited from Hive Gangs.

Those Guardsmen will come knowing how to handle a weapon, where to shoot to kill someone, and in many cases how to do so with decent effect when the foe is in cover. All skills and talents honed in their Gang Years.

Where the formal training comes in could be things like Proper Target Allocation. You can have an entire squad of genuine Crack Shots. But if their preference is “put one between the eyes of the fanciest sod you can spot”? The entire squad might be selecting the exact same target.

OK, a given Squad Leader is almost certainly about to cop it. But the fire is still without direction, and is therefore inefficient. The squad leader is toast - shame about the other 9-29 other foes.

Hence the training - how to take your existing skills and temper them to the greater benefit of the whole Regiment/Army. Also learning where to shoot say, Orks, for maximum effect. Forget gut shots. You’re not showing off here. The only statement to be made is “they’re dead, we’re not”, and how best to shout that out loud across hundreds of fellow Guardsmen.

It is old fluff, but I liked when regiments became garrison on worlds they fought on, and became the new nobility. Even a lowly trooper would get a title and a slice of land.

As mentioned in the past there have been many ways GW has represented Guardsmen of various ability and origin.

At this point it's up to the player to house rule.

That said, the goal of almost every professional military is to bring sameness and uniformity to it's recruits. Thus, having all Guardsmen be virtually identical may not be the worst thing.

Literally nothing is stopping you from making Guard Regiments from Necromunda models. That's how this stuff has always been, even when GW kind of directly supported it through Forge World. You could go a little more elite by playing them as Scions too, especially since they could then be tooling around in their "not a Taurox" Mad Max contraptions.

On the topic of skill, part of the issue is the limits of the d6 system. Both hardened gangers recruited wholesale into the guard, and levied PDF troopers from a soft world both get to be BS3. In a more granular system, one might be a 40% vs. 30%. But we just don’t have that level of design space. Conscripts and basic humans are BS2, vets are BS4, and BS3 covers the rest.

On the flip side, extra granularity doesn't often feel meaningful. D20 systems often suffer from the difference between 50% accuracy and 55% not resulting in a very satisfying difference in most rolls.

That's part of the reason Oath "feels" more elite than 2+ and you can often give the impression of more skilled versions of an existing unit by giving them the ability to ignore cover or accuracy modifiers.

 LunarSol wrote:
Literally nothing is stopping you from making Guard Regiments from Necromunda models. That's how this stuff has always been, even when GW kind of directly supported it through Forge World. You could go a little more elite by playing them as Scions too, especially since they could then be tooling around in their "not a Taurox" Mad Max contraptions.

Or you could just buy a Taurox. It is a Necromunda kit with Legends rules....

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Literally nothing is stopping you from making Guard Regiments from Necromunda models. That's how this stuff has always been, even when GW kind of directly supported it through Forge World. You could go a little more elite by playing them as Scions too, especially since they could then be tooling around in their "not a Taurox" Mad Max contraptions.

Or you could just buy a Taurox. It is a Necromunda kit with Legends rules....

Fair enough. My knowledge of the Guard doesn't extend much beyond 7th edition. I know they have guardsmen and tanks and when I fight against them I get to try and figure out which tanks do what.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Consider a Regiment recruited from Hive Gangs.

Those Guardsmen will come knowing how to handle a weapon, where to shoot to kill someone, and in many cases how to do so with decent effect when the foe is in cover. All skills and talents honed in their Gang Years.

You are actually describing the Civilian Marksmanship Program in the US, which was created after WW II to create a body of pre-trained riflemen who already know how to operate and effectively use the M1 Garand rifle.

And they're still at it - promoting proficiency and marksmanship with, uh, the M1 Garand rifle.

In 40k terms, they are trained on bolters, and then issued lasguns.

Gangers are at the top of the food chain in the lower levels of a hive. Trading that to become just more cannon fodder for the IoM seems a poor life choice

That aside, a hive ganger regiment is likely going to specialise in urban warfare. I actually expect them to be subpar in an open field as that is a very different type of combat from the one they are used to.

You're assuming they got a choice, Tyran, and weren't simply press-ganged into the role, or handed off to the Guard following Arbites (or equivalent) sweeps.

I'm presuming they would be killed rather than captured, because the Arbiters are a parody of Judge Dread and the whole concept of judge, jury and executioner in one package (plus memetic amounts of police brutality).

And ultimately criminals tend to make poor soldiers, which is why the closest thing would be penal legions that are the cannon fodder of the cannon fodder.

 Tyran wrote:
I'm presuming they would be killed rather than captured, because the Arbiters are a parody of Judge Dread and the whole concept of judge, jury and executioner in one package (plus memetic amounts of police brutality).

And ultimately criminals tend to make poor soldiers, which is why the closest thing would be penal legions that are the cannon fodder of the cannon fodder.

It depends. The French Foreign Legion quite openly recruits criminals, and until recently, one could not serve under a birth name - everyone got a new identity.

The modern concept of the all-volunteer force is very a much an innovation. Historically, petty criminals were prime recruits for military service since they could stop bullets just as well as anyone else and hard cases usually got sent to the worst assignments (West African Station, anyone?).

Such outfits typically have severe discipline, and part of why Western nations prefer troops with non-criminal records is that this can be a bit unseemly.

In the Grim Darkness, I don't know that anyone really approaches modern sensitivities so gangers would be no worse than any other conscript, and likely better since they would have a finely-honed sense of survival and also enough cunning to work the angles and get rank simply to avoid being put on so many details.

I'd not be surprised if there was a "ganger E4 mafia" within IG units. It would work like service academy grads except they're much better card players.

 Tyran wrote:
Gangers are at the top of the food chain in the lower levels of a hive. Trading that to become just more cannon fodder for the IoM seems a poor life choice

That aside, a hive ganger regiment is likely going to specialise in urban warfare. I actually expect them to be subpar in an open field as that is a very different type of combat from the one they are used to.

See my comments about reliable supply chains.

Gangs do it for turf and presumably to alleviate boredom. You’re risking your life for small gains.

In the Guard? You’ve a shot at getting a whole world to be the new nobility over. And more likely than not? You’ll be doing the fighting on a full stomach and not having to worry about scraping up fresh ammo, or getting shanked after one too many bottles of Wild Snake.

It’s not entirely dissimilar to the GI Bill and equivalent. It’s the promise of a better life after service. A life which, for your Hiver, is otherwise entirely out of reach. It’s your one shot at proper social mobility,

Heck, for the loonier element? It’s the chance to kill stuff without having to worry about an Enforcer (or local equivalent) smacking you in the face with a Power Maul before dragging you off to prison.

Not entirely unlike the pride more primitive tribes take in one of their number being spirited away by Space Marines? Making the Guard Grade is a source of genuine pride. Sure, mostly down to the sheer power of Imperial Propaganda. But regardless of origin? The pride is still there.

IRL the British army during the Napoleonic period was the 'Scum of the earth'.

Back in my 40k days I imagined "Hive Gang" units that would be guardsmen with an improved melee skill. Something that fell between the Ogryns and regular infantry in terms of use.

It's been a decade since I've actually played the tabletop, so take the above statement with a grain of salt.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Heck, for the loonier element? It’s the chance to kill stuff without having to worry about an Enforcer (or local equivalent) smacking you in the face with a Power Maul before dragging you off to prison.

Evelyn Waugh first became known for writing a series of biting satire books about the "Smart Set" in the 1930s, and one of his more obscure works is Put Out More Flags, which is when the Smart Set goes to war.

One of his recurring characters is the completely dissipated aristocrat ne'er do well Basil Seal. He spends the first part of Phoney War schlepping around The Worst Evacuee Children in England to respectable rural homeowners, who have to bribe him to not end up with them. Anyhow, he gets bored, and from a friend he learns about the Commandos, who - is delighted to discover - can go behind enemy lines and kill without any consequence.

Bombs, knives, pistols, you name it. "Where do I sign up?"

I think hive gangs would be very into getting military-grade firepower in good repair and license to kill without restraint, stealing whatever enemy stuff they can carry.

GW never really put Americans in 40k - at best they're the Catachan Rambo-type guys, but there should be some formations exclulsively recruited from gangs who hot wire, splice and generally bash together weapons the way Americans used to scrounge weapons and hot-rod their Shermans.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Gangs do it for turf and presumably to alleviate boredom. You’re risking your life for small gains.

In the Guard? You’ve a shot at getting a whole world to be the new nobility over. And more likely than not? You’ll be doing the fighting on a full stomach and not having to worry about scraping up fresh ammo, or getting shanked after one too many bottles of Wild Snake.

On the other hand, gang life is infinitely safer than actual warfare, at least in the small scale gang warfare, individual skill matters for survival. No amount of skill matters if enemy artillery decides to delete the square kilometer you happen to be in.

It’s not entirely dissimilar to the GI Bill and equivalent. It’s the promise of a better life after service. A life which, for your Hiver, is otherwise entirely out of reach. It’s your one shot at proper social mobility,

Yes, but people that are not gangers are more likely to be attracted by such promise. People that become muscle for organized crime don't see the point in the whole "after service" and want something more immediate.

Heck, for the loonier element? It’s the chance to kill stuff without having to worry about an Enforcer (or local equivalent) smacking you in the face with a Power Maul before dragging you off to prison.

Instead they will get smacked in the face by their drill instructor. Military life is primarily about discipline, so again people that become criminals are unlikely to want to join the military,

Not entirely unlike the pride more primitive tribes take in one of their number being spirited away by Space Marines? Making the Guard Grade is a source of genuine pride. Sure, mostly down to the sheer power of Imperial Propaganda. But regardless of origin? The pride is still there.

Sure, but people attracted to that military ethos don't tend to join gangs, rather they join the PDF.

 Tyran wrote:

On the other hand, gang life is infinitely safer than actual warfare, at least in the small scale gang warfare, individual skill matters for survival. No amount of skill matters if enemy artillery decides to delete the square kilometer you happen to be in.

"Chiraq" says differently. In much of the world, inner cities take a heavy toll on young males, and if you're in a 40k hive, you'll almost certainly be dead by 40. If the gangs or judges don't get you, the toxic waste, radioactivity and mutant rats will.

Sure would be nice to get offworld, and maybe see actual sunshine and inhale breathable air before you croak.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

"Chiraq" says differently.

Are you serious?

In 2022 to 2024 Chicago had 1928 homicides.

In the same period, the Ukraine war has killed over 350-700 thousand people.

"Chiraq" is nonsense told by people that do not appreciate the scale of actual warfare.

and if you're in a 40k hive, you'll almost certainly be dead by 40.

And if you are a guardsman in 40k, you'll almost certainly be dead by the 40th hour of deployment.

 Tyran wrote:

And if you are a guardsman in 40k, you'll almost certainly be dead by the 40th hour of deployment.

How would people in the hive know that? What sources of information can they draw upon?

They know that life in the hive is miserable, brutish and vile, and maybe, maybe if they get lucky, they get the golden ticket.

A full belly. Money in your pocket. And I'm sure a few survivors would be brought back in the bloom of health to talk about how great it is.

I find the idea that you could recruit gangsters from the 1930s - or indeed today - and they'd somehow represent crack regiments in WW2 or today a bit silly.

In terms of average ability, its basically an issue of training - both time and budget.

Sure if you grab people in basic administration and hive gangers and throw them into a field then maybe the gangers would perform better (although leadership and organisation tends to prevail).

But if you are going to give them training, over some period of time (6 months, several years?) - you'd probably find it ends up being much of a muchness. People will end up being about as fit as each other, and about as capable of shooting a lasgun as each other.

In the old days of RL it made more of a difference because there was no time, money or infrastructure to train people. If you could ride a horse, forage and shoot a gun/stab a sword, you have got a clear head start over someone who has never done those things and is going to have to try and pick it up after they are deployed. But that largely stopped being the case outside of the most desperate circumstances centuries ago. And isn't really a representation of the Guard in 40k unless you want it to be.

 Nevelon wrote:
On the topic of skill, part of the issue is the limits of the d6 system. Both hardened gangers recruited wholesale into the guard, and levied PDF troopers from a soft world both get to be BS3. In a more granular system, one might be a 40% vs. 30%. But we just don’t have that level of design space. Conscripts and basic humans are BS2, vets are BS4, and BS3 covers the rest.

It's only limited by its implementation though.

Go back to the pre 8th BS resolution, but compare it to Initiative, opposing BS or another stat, and you've got an endless scale based on comparative skill.

GW's resolution deterioration to X+ on a dice has done them no favours in the design space. But i certainly don't think increasing dice sizes in a game with this many dice is going to be practical or useful. In practice, the smaller the increment, the more numbers stop being useful stats. A D10 rolling a 10+ is almost half the success rate of a 6+ on a D6, making it pretty useless in a game. a 9+ is only slightly better than a 6+, and a 6+ is useless as an effective stat. that leaves 8+ as a starting point (still worse than a 5+ on a d6), and you wouldn't go better than a 3+ on a D10, which is slightly worse than a 2+ on a d6, because it's already far too good as a stat.

IMO at the scale 40k exists, a D6 is the biggest dice you want to be using. Coming up with more interesting implementations is where you add value, rather than adding extra increments.

It's worth noting that the most recent rules for hive gangers in IG armies were in during the Armageddon campaign, and represented hive gangers essentially defending their own hives.

It's hard to tell if it's deliberate world building or innumeracy, but GW borrows one of Dune's great ideas: that transporting armies through interstellar space is very expensive and thus the armies involved in ground battles are going to run smaller than you'd expect. When it's very expensive to transport an army, you tend to spend more per soldier, and vice versa. You also factor in how much additional training or gear can increase their efficacy.

If you look at historical examples, the armies of the Napoleonic period were full of conscripts with minimal training. They weren't expected to do much more than load and fire their muskets, and present bayonets when threatened by cavalry. Good troops were valuable, but not much more survivable given the increased role of artillery. And only the british had to transport armies by sea, and shoes are cheap.

On the flip side, the airborne forces of WW2 represent very highly trained, well equipped forces, since the cost of the logistics and training just to get them to the landing zone made it worthwhile to make sure they were really good once they got there.

This is why, outside of long drawn out campaigns, the IG is generally made up of fairly elite forces. It simply doesn't make sense, when not pressed, to pay to transport an unwilling conscript through the warp and feed them, when you can probably find volunteers much more capable. OTOH, the lethality of the 40k battlefield means you probably don't want to go too nuts. When a formation uses Valkryies, like Scions, they are usually better armed, equipped, and trained.

When GW has introduced conscripts or militias or gangs into the lore or rules, they are almost always planetary defenders, not attackers. Whiteshields defended their native cadia, renegade milita defended Vracks, hive gangers defended their hives armageddon.