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So, 40k has a LOT of named characters. Love 'em or hate 'em, they exist.

And something that bugs me is that, for a lot of them? They don't NEED unique datasheets. Well, they do for now, due to design decisions GW has made.

But I think it'd be much better if the majority of named characters were just (in-game) specific builds of generic characters, who should have plenty of customization for their datasheets.
Calgar shouldn't be the only Chapter Master with Twin Fists. He should be, on the tabletop, "Chapter Master (upgraded Captain) with Twin Fists and Relic Terminator Armour".
Caanok Var should be "Captain with Terminator Armor, Mastercrafted Power Maul, and Advanced Tactics".
Rotigus should just be a set of options for the general GUO datasheet.

I don't think this works for every single character-Primarchs (as much as they shouldn't BE on the tabletop to begin with!) shouldn't have a generic sheet.
That said, I firmly think 40k is better when it's YOUR characters. Not GW's.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, 40k has a LOT of named characters. Love 'em or hate 'em, they exist.

And something that bugs me is that, for a lot of them? They don't NEED unique datasheets. Well, they do for now, due to design decisions GW has made.

But I think it'd be much better if the majority of named characters were just (in-game) specific builds of generic characters, who should have plenty of customization for their datasheets.
Calgar shouldn't be the only Chapter Master with Twin Fists. He should be, on the tabletop, "Chapter Master (upgraded Captain) with Twin Fists and Relic Terminator Armour".
Caanok Var should be "Captain with Terminator Armor, Mastercrafted Power Maul, and Advanced Tactics".
Rotigus should just be a set of options for the general GUO datasheet.

I don't think this works for every single character-Primarchs (as much as they shouldn't BE on the tabletop to begin with!) shouldn't have a generic sheet.
That said, I firmly think 40k is better when it's YOUR characters. Not GW's.

People already use Calgar in their DIY Chapters.
People already use Caanok Var in their DIY Chapters.
Rotigus gets better options because he's unique limiting those options to 1 and only one.

Edit to Add: Calgar is also both Unique and Faction Keyword limited to again allow for those unique statlines and bespoke rules. I haven't sat down and hammered it out, but I suspect mixing Calgar with Deathwing Dets and units could result in a fairly broken mashup.

Named characters have always had there own stat blocks/data sheets/or whatever term you want to use per edition. As well as their own bespoke special equipment.

There's no need to change after all these decades.

So if you want to use Calgars special rules/unique equipment? Then suck it up & play UM.
(What YOU call him, what color you paint him? Doesn't matter - your still playing UM...)
Same applies to any other named character.

I'm okay with their equipment being available on generic chars, but let them keep unique special rules and maybe also something special about their equipment. Like, give everyone the option for two fists, bit give Calgars' a pip of strength or what more.
Of course some chars carry something unique to them, so, give every DG char the option for the scythe, but only Typhus should carry the Destroyer Hive.

The problem here seems to be less that special characters are a thing, and more that GW has spent at least the last three edition stripping away the options to allow you to make your characters your characters (even if that means picking sub-optimal options that you like the flavour of).

I'm in the "Generic Characters Only" camp, though I know it will never happen.

ccs wrote:
Named characters have always had there own stat blocks/data sheets/or whatever term you want to use per edition. As well as their own bespoke special equipment.

There's no need to change after all these decades.

So if you want to use Calgars special rules/unique equipment? Then suck it up & play UM.
(What YOU call him, what color you paint him? Doesn't matter - your still playing UM...)
Same applies to any other named character.

Yeah.
I mean I realise this debate has run on for at least 15 years now, possibly all the way back to 2nd or something, but I'm not really seeing what the problem is.

I mean if you want to take Calgar, but don't want to take "Calgar", you can do a headswap or something and there you go. Or make a completely new model but use his rules. You can't translate him over to non-UM armies (unless your whole army can be UM, in which case again it doesn't matter), but I don't really mind that.

I don't really like it when certain integral faction abilities are locked behind a special character, to the point where that character is essentially 100% required in a vaguely sensible list.
At certain points almost every Thousand Sons army including Ahriman for example. I'm sure other examples would come to mind if I tried.
But really that's just a function of faction and unit rules design. You have seen the same where various enhancements have mandatory - or Warlord Traits/Relics before them.

I don't see what is gained by turning Ahriman into "A Sorcerer with [The Big Hat]+[Staff of Zappy] with [Magic Missiles+1]" that are options any generic sorcerer could take for the same points.

Tyel wrote:

I don't see what is gained by turning Ahriman into "A Sorcerer with [The Big Hat]+[Staff of Zappy] with [Magic Missiles+1]" that are options any generic sorcerer could take for the same points.

What's gained is that if GW's writer wants his super-special-favourite-best-character to have really cool rules and wargear then he has to make those things available to generic characters as well.

Thus we might get something resembling actual options for generic characters.

I liked it in 5th edition where the SM codex encouraged you to file the names off and kitbash your own for your custom chapter. A lot of them let you tweak your chapter rules, which they mostly do with detachments these days.

I understand that having more options, especially when layered with special unit rules, can cause some issues. But generally I’m in favor of more choices that let you customize your dudes.

This is why I'm looking forward to the maelstrom book and a design your own character bit.


I wish Special Characters existed for Crusade and other Narrative based games only.

Your own dudes should be the stars of regular games of 40k.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
This is why I'm looking forward to the maelstrom book and a design your own character bit.


I wish Special Characters existed for Crusade and other Narrative based games only.

Your own dudes should be the stars of regular games of 40k.

Ironic that in Crusade, the more narrative game style, while you can use special characters, you are incentivized not to. They don’t gain XP or battle honors

I’d love to have the Anvil of Apotheosis stuff from AoS move to 40k. But getting the balance right would be rough.

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:

I don't see what is gained by turning Ahriman into "A Sorcerer with [The Big Hat]+[Staff of Zappy] with [Magic Missiles+1]" that are options any generic sorcerer could take for the same points.

What's gained is that if GW's writer wants his super-special-favourite-best-character to have really cool rules and wargear then he has to make those things available to generic characters as well.

Thus we might get something resembling actual options for generic characters.

Yeah. For me, the bigger side of the issue is not "Named characters are unique," it's "Generic characters lack options."
But the issues are at least somewhat related.

The biggest issue I have with special characters is when they become auto-takes. When every Guard list has Gaunt's Ghosts, or every World Eaters list has Angron, or every Ultramarines list has Titus/Calgar/Ventris/etc, that's when I think things need a serious shakeup.

Unfortunately, GW doesn't want to do that, and would rather have people take self-limiting unique models that they don't need to worry about people spamming.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. For me, the bigger side of the issue is not "Named characters are unique," it's "Generic characters lack options."
But the issues are at least somewhat related.

Agreed.

I think the loss of artefact weapons and the like has been a particularly heavy blow in this regard because a lot of the time you end up with a lot of weapons being bad/mediocre, except that special characters get to have actually good versions of said weapons.

To take a random example, the Necron Staff of Light is a rather mediocre weapon for HQs with S5 AP-2 D1 or 3 shots with the same profile. However, in 9th there were some upgraded versions of this - including one with +1 across the board (i.e. S6 AP-3 D2, 4 shots at range). So if you wanted a decent hybrid lord, you could actually get a decent weapon.

Now though, all those variants are gone and only Imotekh is allowed to have an actually good version of the weapon.

Just a random example but it hopefully illustrates the frustration of wargear options being stripped from generic lords while special characters get to keep all their toys.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The biggest issue I have with special characters is when they become auto-takes. When every Guard list has Gaunt's Ghosts, or every World Eaters list has Angron, or every Ultramarines list has Titus/Calgar/Ventris/etc, that's when I think things need a serious shakeup.

Unfortunately, GW doesn't want to do that, and would rather have people take self-limiting unique models that they don't need to worry about people spamming.

I think this is also an issue and one made worse when special characters have no generic equivalent at all.

Not ALL characters need to be generic, but I feel that for the most part, named characters should be showcases of 'look at the cool stuff we can do with these character builder rules we have provided'. Like a nice big list of equipment upgrades, stat upgrades, special abilities, and FOC swaps that you can then pick and chose from. Like a Guard Commander with Carapace Armor, a Hellgun, Deep Strike and who say lets you take 1 unit of Stormtroopers as Troops. Or for example a Commissar who takes a laspistol and chainsword, upgrades their Leadership and Weapon Skill, and takes an attendant with a Meltagun. You need some rails to keep you from making the most overpowered character ever (though then again, points costs can probably cover some of that), but overall a nice big list of options to pick and choose from to build 'your dudes' is just fun.

The problem I have with special characters is that their very creation then commits the setting to bend around them, money to be invested into models and fiction and the introduction of comic book death rules that cheapen the game.

If gw made them and killed them an edition later I'd not have an issue. But having Skeletor survive 40 years cackling and shaking his first in a setting that tries to style itself as a merciless meatgrinder is just lame.

And because they have now committed resources they have to sell the models so then they have to give them all bespoke uber rules making them more popular and reinforcing their existence in the setting.


Imo, they should be giving each version of character models their own name and leave it at that. All those lieutenants can be characters but the name is all thats different.

It justifies why there are so many versions of the same character entry.

But continually spitting out new uber characters that have bespoke rules to sell them, no only takes away from options for the army, it competes with generic versions of the same unit.

Ragnar, Calgar, Dante, asmodai are all just names for ranks of space marines. Every marine captain is about equivalent in combat prowess, but the named ones skew the perception terribly.

This is also true of factions where people see fiction protagonists as if the whole faction are that capable. Malum cado represents 40k plot armour, not standard marine capability.

Long-winded, nuanced (read: overly-complicated) take incoming:

So first of all, I do enjoy named characters existing. However, I think the vast majority of named characters don't deserve to have their own datasheets and should just be generic datasheets/builds. To my mind, something deserving to be a named character should basically boil down to them being an example of something so unique/rare within the galaxy that you wouldn't reasonably have multiple things with similar rules on the same battlefield 99.9% of the time. So maybe "named character" is a bit of a misnomer. What I really want is a 0-1 limit for certain datasheets to help convey how rare and unusual they are.

So Roboute Guilliman? He's one of a kind. It would be weird to have multiple things on the table with his stats and abilities. Give that guy a 0-1 limit.

Marneus Calgar? As far as I'm aware, he's basically just a generic chapter master with two power fists and two storm bolters. He doesn't need super special bespoke +1 strength power fists that are somehow extra special because the guy who made them was just really on his game that day. He can just use the rules of a generic chapter master. He isn't actually that special. If you don't want to field him unless his fists have an extra pip of strength or whatever, then you never really liked him for the model or lore in the first place; you were just optimizing your list.

Avatar of Khaine? It's a weird day when you have several of those in the same place at the same time. Give them a 0-1 limit.

Eldrad? He could reasonably just be a generic farseer with the option to swap out Guide for Doom and Eldritch Storm for Mind War.

Jain Zar? That's a trickier one. You could maybe make the case that generic exarch characters should exist and that most of a phoenix lord's gimmick could be covered by wargear/exarch power options, but there's plenty of reason to state that phoenix lords should be a cut above even an exarch and thus deserve to have their demigod plot armor and noticably better abilities represented.

So basically:
* 0-1 datasheets should exist.
* Most named characters aren't special enough to be 0-1 and should be turned into generic datasheet options.
* Some non-characters should also probably become 0-1 units either for balance reasons or to simply reflect their fluff. Aren't there only supposed to be a few riptides in the galaxy? Maybe make those guys 0-1.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:

I don't see what is gained by turning Ahriman into "A Sorcerer with [The Big Hat]+[Staff of Zappy] with [Magic Missiles+1]" that are options any generic sorcerer could take for the same points.

What's gained is that if GW's writer wants his super-special-favourite-best-character to have really cool rules and wargear then he has to make those things available to generic characters as well.

Thus we might get something resembling actual options for generic characters.

Yeah. For me, the bigger side of the issue is not "Named characters are unique," it's "Generic characters lack options."
But the issues are at least somewhat related.

Even if they did this though, generic characters would still lack options. They'd have to log the equipment and the bespoke together, so you're still making Calgar out of a generic Terminator Captain. What I think you want are generic characters with generic equipment and rules that use the special characters as templates.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:

I don't see what is gained by turning Ahriman into "A Sorcerer with [The Big Hat]+[Staff of Zappy] with [Magic Missiles+1]" that are options any generic sorcerer could take for the same points.

What's gained is that if GW's writer wants his super-special-favourite-best-character to have really cool rules and wargear then he has to make those things available to generic characters as well.

Thus we might get something resembling actual options for generic characters.

Yeah. For me, the bigger side of the issue is not "Named characters are unique," it's "Generic characters lack options."
But the issues are at least somewhat related.

Even if they did this though, generic characters would still lack options. They'd have to log the equipment and the bespoke together, so you're still making Calgar out of a generic Terminator Captain. What I think you want are generic characters with generic equipment and rules that use the special characters as templates.

What I want is for units (especially characters, but really most units) to have customization.
And, as part of that, most Named Characters should simply be able to be built from the generic options.

Calgar doesn't need +2 Strength or +1 Damage on his Powerfists over any other Chapter Master.
I don't have to take Rotigus to get a +1 Damage ability on a GUO-though if that ability would be too strong to have in multiples, I'm totally fine making that option max at 1 per army.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Marneus Calgar? As far as I'm aware, he's basically just a generic chapter master with two power fists and two storm bolters. He doesn't need super special bespoke +1 strength power fists that are somehow extra special because the guy who made them was just really on his game that day. He can just use the rules of a generic chapter master. He isn't actually that special. If you don't want to field him unless his fists have an extra pip of strength or whatever, then you never really liked him for the model or lore in the first place; you were just optimizing your list.

His Super Fists are "unique" and the fist parts are nice, and yeah math wise more attacks, more AP, and More D - but you're speeding right past the part that sticks out to me. They're a LOT more than a storm bolter. 18" A4 D2 pistol The Gauntlets are a HUGE increase not just "one more pip of strength" I can think of only one (maybe two depending on how technical you want to get) places his gauntlets aren't an upgrade over generic.

Jain Zar? That's a trickier one. You could maybe make the case that generic exarch characters should exist and that most of a phoenix lord's gimmick could be covered by wargear/exarch power options, but there's plenty of reason to state that phoenix lords should be a cut above even an exarch and thus deserve to have their demigod plot armor and noticably better abilities represented.

I'm not sure why Jain Zar is Epic Hero Unique and Marneus Calgar is not. Theres only one of both in the entire universe. You could maybe make the case that generic captain characters should exist and that most of the Chapter Master's gimmick could be covered by wargear/Chapter Master power options, but there's plenty of reason to state that Chapter Masters should be a cut above even a Captain, and thus deserve to have their demigod plot armor and noticably better abilities represented. See how easy that worked?

I think one of the problems is that the Epic Heroes are the theme enabler for themes that are not directly related to the character. Calgar is THE road to Tactical Doctrine. And I get it that Ultramarines are THE Tactical Doctrine Chapter so that should be their thing. But it shouldn't be run through Calgar and only Calgar. Compare and Contrast that to several editions ago when using Sammael made all the BIKE units BATTLELINE (so to speak) and Belial made all TERMINATORS BATTLELINE (and OC2). That was a bespoke that was directly related to taking Belial and Sammael for a non-standard theme. You can argue all TERMINATOR CAPTAINs should have had the same bespoke and you'd probably be right, but the example does pretty effectively show what I mean by directly related to the character. Making Terminators troops wouldn't have made (enough) sense if it came from Azrael. Or even Terminator Calgar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Calgar doesn't need +2 Strength or +1 Damage on his Powerfists over any other Chapter Master.
I don't have to take Rotigus to get a +1 Damage ability on a GUO-though if that ability would be too strong to have in multiples, I'm totally fine making that option max at 1 per army.

Why not? That's the "options" that were taken. And he actually doesn't have more stat over the other Chapter Masters and Captains. His fists are very comparable to Agatone's Thunderhammer. Adrax gets 2 more S, Calgar gets 1 more AP and Calgar gets 1 more A for being a Chapter Master instead of a Captain. Lysander's Thunder hammer is 2 more S, and the same AP. again with 1 more A for Chapter Master. Pedro Kantor is a Chapter master and his Fist of Dorn but instead of getting +1 A his Dorn's Arrow shooting is RF2 +1S and Sustained Hits instead of A4 and Pistol. Suboden Khan has a spear with the same A, 2 less Strength, 1 less AP and D, but Lance (which regrants some S) and Anti-Monster 4+ and Anti-Vehicle 4+ making the S almost unimportant. Then for shooting he has an Onslaught Gatling Cannon. Caanok Var's Tetsubo has generic Captain with Power Fist stats. And an entire second "Sweep" stat line. Plus his bespoke. Iron Father Feiros has Chapter Master 6A, and 1 less S, AP and D. He also has a second EXTRA ATTACKS weapon that that provides two more S8 -2 D3 attacks which more or less equals out with Calgar. Tor Garadon's fists are absolutely hillarious. Captain 5A, S+4 AP down 1, Damage down 1. Unless you're punching a Monster Vehicle or Fortification in wich case its +6S 1 more AP, and 1 more D. Tor Garadon is - as far as I know - the only SM Captain/Chapter Master who can single handedly melee a Great Unclean One to death in a single fight phase. Everyone else (Captains and Chapter Masters with Fists/Hammers/equivalent as opposed to power/chain -swords, maces and the like) is pretty evenly equipped except Garadon. And Pedro needs to get +1A on his fist which I'm guessing was lost in the edition update.

I think Wyldhunt set out a reasonable distinction. Calgar is a chapter master. There are at least 1,000 of those, and they should all be roughly similar power level. There are only single digits of Phoenix Lords, and the lore is clear that each one is specialised to their own aspect. It doesn’t t make any sense in that regard to have a generic character sheet for Phoenix Lord, that you can choose a fixed set of options to build Jain Zar.

Marneus calgars first character entry in 2nd ed had him literally equipped with 2 power fists and a storm bolter.

The fact he could wield a storm bolter while wearing 2 power fists WAS his uniqueness.

Gw insisting on bespoke rules and weapon profiles for every army and unit infected characters.

Ragnar in 3rd ed just carried a frost blade that any character could have. Now he has a ridiculous profile for the weapon.

Thaka used to have a power klaw and big shoots. Now they're both insane


The point is that their weapons weren't always uber snowflake profiles and they don't have to remain so. A power fist is a power fist. A frost blade a frost blade.

These silly stats are part and parcel of the current shift to OTT characters with overly unique weapons and stats in order to sell unique versions of existing character types.

Putting a name on a colonel or a marine captain doesn't make them any different from any other colonels or captains.

EVERY CHARACTER IN 40K HAS A NAME. Even the 'generic' ones you use in your game.

There is no such thing as a vanilla exarch, captain, shas o, warboss etc. they are all characters in the setting. Or do people think when they deploy captain with powerfist he's literally representing a non existent person in 40k without a name?

I always thought the point of named characters was to give an example of what you could do yourself, originally. And to sort of showcase the themes of the factions with a bit of fun fiction and flavourful rules.

I think they originally expected that people would just make their own and also come up with some flavourful rules if they wanted to to represent their experiences on the battlefield, playing narrative style games with the same characters recurring.

The game has definitely morphed into something else now, and that style of play is not as prominent (though I do hear Crusade is representing it in a modern way). The role of those characters has changed - now they are part of the brand identity of the setting, protagonists of an ongoing story and products that command an extra high price tag.

I think the tendency to think your OC was super cool and want to show them off was always there, and I honestly think the Pheonix Lords were an example of this and one of the earliest ones. The way they were written so that they persisted after death in the armour and could therefore show up really anywhere made them a weird cross over from "here's a cool example character" to "this could be one of your dudes".

It's pretty offputting to me, I think in my entire time playing Warhammer I only ever used Commander Tycho once or twice back in the 90s and then decided I preferred my own characters and never used any specials ever again. But it's been a long time since that original "make your own dudes, here's a fun example" style was the main focus.

Edit: It's very similar in a way to adventures for D&D - originally they didn't sell them because they thought the whole point was to make your own, so who'd want to buy premade ones? They only put the adventures in the starter set as an example of the kind of thing you could do, and how to structure it. Originally some of the early starter adventures even explicitly had blank spaces where you were guided into how to stock rooms with treasure and monsters. But now a lot of D&D is playing pre-written adventures, often entire pre-written campaigns and "adventure paths" where the entire thing is a product you consume rather than something you create for yourself.

Named characters with inflated stats and powers should not be a thing in matched play.

All the characters miniature models should be playable under a generic name in the codex, and be stronger than the other HQ data sheets, but not the meat grinders they all seem to be.

Named characters should be buildable. As mentioned above the real problem is GW stripping units of options. Making super special named characters seems to be mostly a business decision of wanting to sell models, or a sort of comic-bookification of the lore to create an in universe superhero pantheon.

Re: Phoenix Lords. I don't quite remember if the 2nd ed Phoenix Lords were much more powerful than the Exarchs you could build at the time. You could make very dangerous custom Exarchs, and I think the special abilities of the Phoenix Lords were just combos of Wargear and generic Exarch Powers.

2nd ed also had a set of custom Chapter Master rules too, which included a few "generic" skills you could amp them up with, iirc.

 Hellebore wrote:
Marneus calgars first character entry in 2nd ed had him literally equipped with 2 power fists and a storm bolter.

The fact he could wield a storm bolter while wearing 2 power fists WAS his uniqueness.

Gw insisting on bespoke rules and weapon profiles for every army and unit infected characters.

Ragnar in 3rd ed just carried a frost blade that any character could have. Now he has a ridiculous profile for the weapon.

Thaka used to have a power klaw and big shoots. Now they're both insane


The point is that their weapons weren't always uber snowflake profiles and they don't have to remain so. A power fist is a power fist. A frost blade a frost blade.

Just to add to this point - prior editions had both standard wargear and also artefacts, which were 1/army to represent their rarity. These included (among other things) weapons that were essentially stronger versions of the standard wargear.

I guess the point I'm making is how special does a special character's wargear need to be, such that even special, 1/army weapons are wholly insufficient to represent their awesomeness?

ccs wrote:

There's no need to change after all these decades.

Funny how that principle is so malleable...

I agree with Wyldhunt, Calgar's "unique" equipment is just a post-hoc justification for giving him unique rules that are stronger than a generic chapter master. Originally he just had two powerfists with bolters in them. There's no theoretical reason why the chapter master of the Star Leopards can't have a relic called The Leopard Fists that do the same thing, nor for that matter is there any reason Calgar couldn't fight with a power sword or a meltagun (if for some reason he thought it was necessary).

 Flinty wrote:
I think Wyldhunt set out a reasonable distinction. Calgar is a chapter master. There are at least 1,000 of those, and they should all be roughly similar power level. There are only single digits of Phoenix Lords, and the lore is clear that each one is specialised to their own aspect. It doesn’t t make any sense in that regard to have a generic character sheet for Phoenix Lord, that you can choose a fixed set of options to build Jain Zar.

But only one named Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines. How many Exarchs are there?

Breton wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I think Wyldhunt set out a reasonable distinction. Calgar is a chapter master. There are at least 1,000 of those, and they should all be roughly similar power level. There are only single digits of Phoenix Lords, and the lore is clear that each one is specialised to their own aspect. It doesn’t t make any sense in that regard to have a generic character sheet for Phoenix Lord, that you can choose a fixed set of options to build Jain Zar.

But only one named Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines. How many Exarchs are there?

How many Exarchs named Steve Angryfire of Biel Tan are there?