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I think the trick is there are two different ideas in play:

1. The setting of 40k is so horrible and lethal that for any civilization to survive it must be brutal, authoritarian, repressive, and fully oriented towards warfare. There's a moral question of how far you would be willing to go in this direction to minimize risk to yourself.

2. The Imperium is still much worse than it needs to be, because it's corrupt and dysfunctional and blinded by dogma. These are flaws by any metric, since they also undermine the Imperium's ability to fight aliens and Chaos.

And at the risk of throwing a wrench, I'd argue the Tau and Eldar are better examples of justified(?) fascism than the Imperium is. They have strong unitary states, they're heavily militarized, they have an ideology of genetic superiority but a willingness to cooperate with outsiders for strategic gain, they're relatively secular and meritocratic, and their citizens lead strictly regimented lives with the justification that it's needed to face external threats. Neither is super-close but they have parallels.

The Imperium is a feudal empire which is so poorly centralized that Terra can't keep track of entire planets, it's ruled over by an absentee monarch who claims divine right but with most real decisions made by his council of "High Lords", its Imperial Guard is a small fraction of the local PDFs, it has a weird ideology of just killing all outsiders on sight (but often unenforced), its ruling class is made up of centuries-old aristocratic families who control nearly all their society's wealth, all scientific knowledge is monopolized by an insular religious sect, and the lives that ordinary subjects lead are almost entirely determined by their local lords or governors. It's much more of a crumbling turn-of-the-century monarchy than a fascist state, and even its loyalists admit it has huge problems.

An Eldar autarch would be fine sacrificing a million human lives to save a single squad of guardians, or probably even acquiring some random artifact. They simply consider themselves that much more important. Can this be justified? Maybe, that's a moral question. It does pretty consistently benefit the Eldar.

But an Imperial admiral would potentially kill a million humans because an inquisitor mistyped something in his orders and he was too scared to ask if it was correct. And that inquisitor might kill an Eldar who was trying to warn him about a daemon because "aliens only lie!" That's just dysfunctional and hurts humanity's own survival. And there's a lot of that stuff endemic to the Imperium, alongside the more "rational" paranoia and brutality (which is at least to the faction's own advantage).


Now as for Chaos, I agree they're having a tough time. You can keep pure Chaos as evil, or at least inherently destructive, but there needs to be some incentive to work with it. There need to be stories of people making deals with Chaos and coming out ahead. That's the only way the decision has gravity. There should be at least some very slim possibility that Abaddon will get what he wants and take over the Imperium without becoming a slave to any of the gods, even if it's negligible.

Right now we don't get that. Chaos is always the wrong pick: sell your soul to become less powerful and lose more often. There's no dramatic tension to that. Gamblers wouldn't get ruined at the casino unless they were seeing some people winning big.

Furthermore, there are no regular human rebels in the game, or even rogue space marine chapters. Only Chaos and Genestealers. Which is really a shame, even a single special character in the Guard codex who was some rebel dictator with no ties to another faction would add a bunch of flavor with no extra work. And if all rebellion against the Imperium is ultimately discovered to come from Chaos or Genestealers how can you say they're tyrannical? Why is there no legitimate dissent?

Vipoid: Fair point on how various political factions use the rhetoric of strength and weakness against their opponents, very well observed. I think there is a tendancy toward a sort of authoritarianism across all of the political spectrum these days - extremely low tolerance of dissent is common to almost all political tribes. Sometimes this is limited to only one sphere of discussion but it tends to be there across the board and leads to caricaturing opponents by all and sundry. The Imperium is a mish mash of various authoritarian regimes so it still fits.

Wyldhunt: None of your examples show Chaos in a positive light though, as something it might make sense to side with. I don't need it to be unambiguously positive, but the overall theme is that it is bad, chaos worshippers are bad and have made the wrong choice by choosing chaos and even if they are successful or competent they are still ultimately in the wrong and an enemy of humanity. I've not read any novel (and I read quite a lot of them) where that is the set up, because GW have chosen to have Chaos be unambiguously bad. That choice is my main sticking point, not any existing book or written material - it's the choice about what gets written. Even if there was one example, there are so, so many examples to the contrary that it's still not enough.

PenitentJake: Your post is basically written from an Imperial POV - you refer to chaos as impure, you see it as totally inevitable that chaos will lead to damnation, and so on. So you've fully accepted the GW framing. And my post is arguing against that framing, saying that it is bad writing which is bad for the setting overall. I'm aware fully of how it works in setting at the moment, but I think that it is bad that it works that way.

It's a bit frustrating because I'm going out of my way to make this point over and over again but I feel it's not getting through somehow.

Mad Doc: Basically the same thing I said to Jake applies to your post as well. It's a good explanation of how things stand, but my point is that how things stand isn't very satisfying to me.

Orkeosaurus: Yes, that is basically my problem. Though I genuinely think it would be better to show some positive aspects to chaos - not too much, I don't mean make Chaos the good guys, but let chaos players have their arguments when jockeying back and forth with Loyalists. As it stands, the Loyalists can point to countless canon sources to tell the Chaos players they are wrong, dupes, evil, worth only destroying, and the Chaos players have little in the way of counter argument. I think that is poor for the setting, I think everyone should be able to argue "in character" with a bit of credibility, it makes the setting more fun and makes players have a bit more fun going back and forth.

As it is, I think Imperial fans get all the cake and everyone else gets to watch them eat it.

Wyldhunt: None of your examples show Chaos in a positive light though, as something it might make sense to side with. I don't need it to be unambiguously positive, but the overall theme is that it is bad, chaos worshippers are bad and have made the wrong choice by choosing chaos and even if they are successful or competent they are still ultimately in the wrong and an enemy of humanity. I've not read any novel (and I read quite a lot of them) where that is the set up, because GW have chosen to have Chaos be unambiguously bad. That choice is my main sticking point, not any existing book or written material - it's the choice about what gets written. Even if there was one example, there are so, so many examples to the contrary that it's still not enough.

Spoilers for a few books, but:

Wraith of Magnus <- The climax is basically about how the Emperor is ultimately a dick, and even good guy Vulcan sides with him in his dickishness. Magnus, though not really a "good guy" in this, ultimately ascends to full princehood when he chooses his sons over the Emperor. Tzeentch's blessings here are essentially framed as a route to freedom (sorta) and a form of choosing his imperfect sons over his donkey-cave father and brothers.

Harrow Master <- The AL have their reasons for what they do. Chaos and its gifts are viewed with wariness, but ultimately those gifts can be useful and are embraced to a certain point by the protagonist faction.

The Talon of Horus series <- Again, chaos is shown as dangerous, but it's also shown as a source of power that can be allied with if you're careful and go into things with your eyes open.

Like chaos, the imperium *should* be viewed as a big, evil hungry patron that will ultimately screw its servants over and probably warp their minds to believe some nonsense. So is it fair to say that your criticism, Da Boss, isn't that chaos is often depicted as bad/wrong, but instead that the imperium is too often depicted as good/correct? Because I feel like that's an important distinction to make.

I agree that some authors mess up by framing the imperium in too positive of a light. I think the reason we don't get many/any stories that frame chaos as "the good guys" is that
A.) Aesthetically, they just tend to be more obviously bad guys. What with thespikes and mutations and the poorly maintained equipment,e tc.

B.) The nature of chaos seems to be that it inevitably keeps pushing people it has its hooks in to more extreme versions of whatever it is that drew them to it. If it *didn't* do that, it would be at risk of just being a neutral force that empowers sympathetic characters, and suddenly the grim dark future would be full of superpowered good guys fighting the evil empire. Which just isn't the setting's vibe. Although personally I think there's more room for stories about relatable protags empowered in this way. Have fun watching them overthrow their oppressors, then enjoy the tragedy of them ultimately becoming something monstrous themselves.

C.) As someone who has chaos armies, I'm not sure I really *want* my chaos factions to be depicted as unambiguous good guys? Harrowmaster's protag is probably about as close you get to a good-guy chaos marine. He doesn't do a ton of angry lashing out people. He's mostly reasonable and logical. He has an endearing human sidekick, and they watch eachothers' backs. He's *likeable*. But the story doesn't try to pretend that he's "the good guy." He's a guy in a nuanced situation where there really aren't any good guys, and the story doesn't really care about whether he's in the ethical/moral right. Similarly, it's more fun watching Thousand Sons with their tragic backstories and genuine grievances go through the galaxy being flawed or even "evil" characters but still sympathetic enough to root for. In a setting full of jerks, it's fun to feel like your pet jerk has permission to go around being an entertaining jerk in his own right. Which is probably why chaos protags seem to have a habit of picking up human sidekicks and usually not being the *most* abusive person in the room. It makes it easier for you to think of this objectively terrible individual in a more sympathetic light. It gives you permission to vicariously watch your jerks be jerks.

A story where a bunch of Khorne marines save a world form the imperium or from tyranids and then end the story by going, "Congrats, humans. You're a vassal planet of the World Eaters now"... that would feel weird if it was framed as a good thing. Because we're too aware as the audience of what it means to be in the clutches of chaos. We're too aware that being on a Khorne-controlled planet is probably going to lead to a whole bunch of slavery and violence.

(The same is true for any story that ends with the imperium in control of a planet, but they're better at numbing the audience's awareness that this is a bad thing. You can cross your fingers and hope that maybe this will end up being one of the less hellish planets.)

I'd say the newer fluff too rarely hints at the dark sides of the Imperium. Older stories tend to stress/throw in remarks repeatedly how anyone who disagrees/ asks too many questions/ researches unwanted stuff gets send to "Servitor duty" or something along those lines. We need more of that and we need Space Marines to do that, not just the cliché Inquisitor or Commissar. I do remember a scene like that in The Beast series, where the Black Templars slaughter some "liberated" humans, but the context escapes me.

What I'd also like to read is a story about someone growing up on a Chaos World inside the Eye of Terror. Their daily struggles, how their parents do farming work in fields that change and mutate, how it's everybody's dream to join the local Chaos Space Marine warband some day, how they go to the Temple of nurgh'l every 7th day and how they are forcibly conscripted because of an attack of evil space elves.
A change of perspective for once.

Also, reading about what people say about the novels, it sounds like the few short stories in the praised 3.5 CSM Codex are still the best fluff showing CSM as cool guys.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Also, reading about what people say about the novels, it sounds like the few short stories in the praised 3.5 CSM Codex are still the best fluff showing CSM as cool guys.

You know what? I'll say it, the 4e Chaos codex is to blame for all of this. AS USUAL.

The 3.5 chaos marines were cool. They had veteran skills, awesome wargear and relic options, even regular squad leaders could be blinged out. You really felt like you had access to something that even normal space marines couldn't get. Selling their souls made them just a little bit better. Probably not worth it but hey.

Then 4e came out and they all became losers. No wargear, no veteran skills, no legion rules, hardly any upgrades, a Chaos Lord couldn't even get Eternal Warrior. Normal space marines got more power from their lightning claws than chaos marines got from wielding a daemon weapon. It was basically a whole codex for crappy mooks to serve as punching bags for the protagonists.

They're in a better place now rules-wise but lore-wise they never fully recovered. They still went from "I'm you, only stronger and evil" to "I'm you, but evil and weaker and kind of stupid". How is that scary? It isn't even fun for the loyalist player when their big nemesis is a chump who everyone expects to lose from the start.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I'd say the newer fluff too rarely hints at the dark sides of the Imperium. Older stories tend to stress/throw in remarks repeatedly how anyone who disagrees/ asks too many questions/ researches unwanted stuff gets send to "Servitor duty" or something along those lines. We need more of that and we need Space Marines to do that, not just the cliché Inquisitor or Commissar.

Agreed, and doubly agreed on specifically needing marines to do it more often. While I really, really appreciate it when we see characters that are written to be likeable and not just overtly rancid jerks, marines are really where BL authors seem to fall into the trap of just writing them as mostly conventional "good guys." Sure, the imperium is kind of dark and edgy, but this Salamander just saved a child from some bad guys! Maybe the imperium isn't *all* bad if it has heroes like this friendly Salamander in it... Nevermind that that that same Salamander would be obligated to kill every child on a planet if the right inquisitor got his chapter master's ear.

There's an HH short story that handles this pretty well. Basically, Space Wolves show up during the great crusade to tell the locals about our lord and savior the Emperor. The locals are in the process of being drukhari'd, so our ragtag human rebels fight shoulder-to-shoulder with the space wolves to beat up some thoroughly evil dark eldar and save the day. And then the story ends with:

SW: Woo! That was great! Welcome to the imperium!
Locals: But... we still don't want to join your imperium though. You guys are cool, but we *just* regained our freedom from our oppressors...
SW: *Levels bolt pistol at human.*

I do remember a scene like that in The Beast series, where the Black Templars slaughter some "liberated" humans, but the context escapes me.

There's a room full of abhumans ("stiltskins?"), and the Templar bolters them all to death immediately after killing their orkish captors. A non-ab human is like, "Dude! Those are an approved form of abhuman!" And the Templar just shrugs and goes, "Sure. If you say so. Oops."

"What I'd also like to read is a story about someone growing up on a Chaos World inside the Eye of Terror. Their daily struggles, how their parents do farming work in fields that change and mutate, how it's everybody's dream to join the local Chaos Space Marine warband some day, how they go to the Temple of nurgh'l every 7th day and how they are forcibly conscripted because of an attack of evil space elves.
A change of perspective for once. "
We get a little of this in the novel Daemon World, though not quite what you're describing or looking for. The world in question is essentially a prim world with no local marines. We get a bit more of it in Lords of Excess, though that novel decided to make the chaos lord in charge an absolute idiot who drives a wedge in his own forces and immediately ruins the planet rather than exploring potentially interesting sustainable long-term chaos world stuff. Agreed that this is fertile ground for future books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

Then 4e came out and they all became losers. No wargear, no veteran skills, no legion rules, hardly any upgrades, a Chaos Lord couldn't even get Eternal Warrior. Normal space marines got more power from their lightning claws than chaos marines got from wielding a daemon weapon. It was basically a whole codex for crappy mooks to serve as punching bags for the protagonists.

They're in a better place now rules-wise but lore-wise they never fully recovered. They still went from "I'm you, only stronger and evil" to "I'm you, but evil and weaker and kind of stupid". How is that scary? It isn't even fun for the loyalist player when their big nemesis is a chump who everyone expects to lose from the start.

You might be on to something here, although it's probably kind of a chicken/egg situation. It's maybe fair to say that this is reflective of a general attitude from GW to treat chaos as cartoonish moustache twirlers and foils during this era. I enjoy a cartoonish villain as much as anyone (it's one of the best things about drukhari), but there really isn't much representation of chaos marines as anything but insane or so absurdly evil they get in their own way. Think about how they're depicted in early Dawn of War games or novels in general. It's always some vague insult about being a "dog of the Emperor" or whatever or glazing their chaos god of choice as being super cool, actually. But it would be *so* easy to make a chaos marine villain nuanced and interesting by just having them point out the loyalists' hypocrisy.

I remember at one point many, many years ago, GW was having a call for writers. I had sent in a submission but knew it wasn't going to be accepted because all the examples they gave were all action, no depth. Writing and characters they were looking for were all 2-dimensional and flat. Needless to say because of that, I've never picked up any of the books.

kaotkbliss wrote:
I remember at one point many, many years ago, GW was having a call for writers. I had sent in a submission but knew it wasn't going to be accepted because all the examples they gave were all action, no depth. Writing and characters they were looking for were all 2-dimensional and flat. Needless to say because of that, I've never picked up any of the books.

This is really common I think in all big business, as much as you see people asking for more depth, or stories that don’t just go over the same themes again and again. The reality is, that in a lot of cases it won’t sell enough for who is managing it or so they think.
In some cases management does allow for smaller projects that can get more varied. I actually think this is wrong, we see things that go out there succeed all the time.

Personally I think 40K needs chaos to be just a little bit justified in its position, they need to constantly destroy it in the underhives since it does offer something. Those who turn to chaos often gain something even if it’s a cost. Even if the chaos gods are a two edged blade that needs to be ever carful with, there needs to be a reason for those to join it.
Or we end up with the imperium always looking like they are justified doing everything they do.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
...it sounds like the few short stories in the praised 3.5 CSM Codex are still the best fluff showing CSM as cool guys.

Which 3.5 short story did you prefer?
-the one with the howling lunatic 'chosen of the gods' and his boss 'amurael the corrupted' and their ten thousand years of butchery?
-the one with abaddon getting a semi watching a planet die before taking a casual tour of his ship to spread fear amongst the slaves in indifference to their lives?
-perhaps the story of Korgha the Slaughterman killing his enemies, and his friends, and himself with a little help from his own possessed weapon/arm?

Chaos lore around 3.5 was wall to wall psychopaths fighting amongst themselves most of the time (literally to the point of not being an active faction until mid M31) and occasionally raiding realspace forthe sheer fun of murdering people. Actually pausing to twirl a mustache would have been character growth for that era.

Another difference, at least as I see it, is how Chaos perceives itself. In the old lore the Imperium utterly hates Chaos but the various subfactions of Chaos often hate each other more than the Imperium. Both a hardcode Khornate and a hardcore Slaaneshi would pick the Imperium over being ruled by the rival god, and this permitted Chaos to feel a lot more powerful without simply overrunning the Imperium and ruining the setting.

But in the new lore everything completely revolves around the Emperor and his space marines, and all Chaos cares about is defeating them. The Emperor is functionally as powerful as four gods combined which is ridiculous. The Emperor should be decidedly weaker than any of the four gods, but able to hold his position by virtue of the fact that no Chaos god will allow the Imperium to fall in such a way that hands over the galaxy to his rivals. Or to use the Star of Chaos as an analogy, the Imperium must remain the circle balanced evenly on the arrows, which each pull on into infinity.

 Overread wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I quite like the Night Lords books as it goes, but they're not addressing what I'm talking about really at all - if you side with Chaos in 40k you are wrong, and if you side with the Imperium you are right, that is how it is written. And I don't believe that has to do with Space Marines particularly.

I think also for BL and GW it is exacerbated because at one time they could pretty much only make material for Imperials. You really feel this as a Xenos player because they have a tiny number of books considering most are as old as the core Imperial factions (heck some like Tyranids, Eldar and Orks are older than Sisters of Battle and yet I'd wager have fewer books).

Sisters of Battle were in the original RT book so.....

On the subject of BL books - I thought the Word Bearers books really showed some good dark stuff - and I liked how Harrowmaster portrayed the Alpha Legion factions but I really have enjoyed the various Mike Brooks novels.

 Gert wrote:

The difference between 40k Slaanesh and AoS Slaanesh is the perfect example of how Space Marines being the focus limits the faction.
40k Slaanesh is either Perfect Warrior TM or Loves Dubstep.
AoS Slaanesh is vanity, gluttony, martial perfection, daemonic corruption all present within the lore and current range.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
We get a bit more of it in Lords of Excess, though that novel decided to make the chaos lord in charge an absolute idiot who drives a wedge in his own forces and immediately ruins the planet rather than exploring potentially interesting sustainable long-term chaos world stuff. Agreed that this is fertile ground for future books.

Yes, I agree the lord in Lords of Excess was a lazy idiot that neglected the emerging conflict in his own warband and who neglected the running of the world to the point where the drug precursor it made ran out because nobody was working. Although one could arguably say that is showing how a Slaanesh warband might tear itself to pieces, it does then raise the question of why Chaos Space Marines are even a threat if they are that self-defeating.

Actually that is my idle brainstorm idea for an Emperor's Children breakaway warband. The chaos lord has grown bored with thousands of years of the same old individual excess and debauchery and decides to try something new. He decides to create an empire to show the Emperor he can do it better, a glittering jewel of an empire dedicated to all of Slaanesh's 6 vices/virtues. So his warband might raid the Imperium and make off with food supplies that he gifts to the downtrodden near starving workers of his chosen starting world. Aside from being able to eat more, they are laced with drugs that make them feel sedated and good, and want to work themselves harder. Maybe their productivity improves so much, he gives them all a day off once in awhile so they can indulge in other pleasures. This would not be from true generosity but because he wants well fed worshipful admirers and a glorious empire dedicated to Slaanesh, not one of vacant eyed shuffling factory drones.

Of course, being Slaanesh, this empire would be cancerous and colonialist. It is basically Omelas, a seemingly perfect happy city but its luxurious quality of life is based on the hidden suffering of others, namely those other worlds that are raided and sucked dry. Those that are unaware of this may seek to join this pocket empire but then the needs of this cancerous empire increase. The influx of material goods and captives feeds the Slaanesh vices of Avarice, Gluttony, Lust. The pride of the citizens in their glorious city feeds Pride, and their life of relative ease feeds Sloth. The chaos lord's dominance over all others feeds Paramountcy, and he lets his subordinates indulge in their own specific desires so long as their actions don't interfere with the grand plan for empire.

Yes, I agree the lord in Lords of Excess was a lazy idiot that neglected the emerging conflict in his own warband and who neglected the running of the world to the point where the drug precursor it made ran out because nobody was working. Although one could arguably say that is showing how a Slaanesh warband might tear itself to pieces, it does then raise the question of why Chaos Space Marines are even a threat if they are that self-defeating.

Yeah. A slaaneshi marine whose so fixated on his own excesses that he lets a planet and his warband crumble around him is *fine.* Like, I buy that it's a thing that would happen at least once. It's just also a less interesting story (to me) than seeing what a functional, productive society dedicated to a chaos god might look like.

Actually that is my idle brainstorm idea for an Emperor's Children breakaway warband. The chaos lord has grown bored with thousands of years of the same old individual excess and debauchery and decides to try something new. He decides to create an empire to show the Emperor he can do it better, a glittering jewel of an empire dedicated to all of Slaanesh's 6 vices/virtues. So his warband might raid the Imperium and make off with food supplies that he gifts to the downtrodden near starving workers of his chosen starting world. Aside from being able to eat more, they are laced with drugs that make them feel sedated and good, and want to work themselves harder. Maybe their productivity improves so much, he gives them all a day off once in awhile so they can indulge in other pleasures. This would not be from true generosity but because he wants well fed worshipful admirers and a glorious empire dedicated to Slaanesh, not one of vacant eyed shuffling factory drones.

Of course, being Slaanesh, this empire would be cancerous and colonialist. It is basically Omelas, a seemingly perfect happy city but its luxurious quality of life is based on the hidden suffering of others, namely those other worlds that are raided and sucked dry. Those that are unaware of this may seek to join this pocket empire but then the needs of this cancerous empire increase. The influx of material goods and captives feeds the Slaanesh vices of Avarice, Gluttony, Lust. The pride of the citizens in their glorious city feeds Pride, and their life of relative ease feeds Sloth. The chaos lord's dominance over all others feeds Paramountcy, and he lets his subordinates indulge in their own specific desires so long as their actions don't interfere with the grand plan for empire.

I like it! My chaos lord's shtick is basically that he pities the slaves of the imperium and makes it his mission to go around "liberating" imperial worlds. He knows he doesn't really have the resources to pull a Huron and make anything sustainable. It won't be long before the imperial forces catch wind of a world going dark and send a fleet to reclaim it. So rather than trying to hold the worlds he conquers, he uses them up and burns them out as part of a massive party. He takes all the materials his fleet needs, recruits any useful people he has a place for (including possible marine recruits). And then he throws massive feasts, reorganizing work schedules to maximize the number of people who can feast and party on quickly-depleting food stores and horded drugs for the next few weeks or months. Eventually, either the imperials show up to reclaim the planet only to realize that its productivity has been wrecked by the large-scale neglect of machinery and misuse of resources (preferably after the imperials lose a bunch of lives to former serfs who refuse to go back to the salt mines), or else the party reaches enough of crescendo with no imperials in sight that my chaos lord's sorcerers can start summoning Slaaneshi daemons that chew their way through population in blissful, horrific violence until there's basically no population left.

To his mind, he's both denying the imperium of its resources and bringing merciful joy to populations that would have lived longer but largely joyless lives without him.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I like it! My chaos lord's shtick is basically that he pities the slaves of the imperium and makes it his mission to go around "liberating" imperial worlds. He knows he doesn't really have the resources to pull a Huron and make anything sustainable. It won't be long before the imperial forces catch wind of a world going dark and send a fleet to reclaim it. So rather than trying to hold the worlds he conquers, he uses them up and burns them out as part of a massive party. He takes all the materials his fleet needs, recruits any useful people he has a place for (including possible marine recruits). And then he throws massive feasts, reorganizing work schedules to maximize the number of people who can feast and party on quickly-depleting food stores and horded drugs for the next few weeks or months. Eventually, either the imperials show up to reclaim the planet only to realize that its productivity has been wrecked by the large-scale neglect of machinery and misuse of resources (preferably after the imperials lose a bunch of lives to former serfs who refuse to go back to the salt mines), or else the party reaches enough of crescendo with no imperials in sight that my chaos lord's sorcerers can start summoning Slaaneshi daemons that chew their way through population in blissful, horrific violence until there's basically no population left.

To his mind, he's both denying the imperium of its resources and bringing merciful joy to populations that would have lived longer but largely joyless lives without him.

Although doesn't that methodology feed into the earlier debate about Chaos being portrayed as definitively evil compared to the Imperium since it destroys each world in a world ending daemonic apocalypse if the Imperium doesn't reclaim the world? Most would view that as still indisputably evil. An oppressive Imperial society still has the hope of overthrow and change. A daemonic apocalypse that consumes all mortals, body and soul, leaves no hope for any positive change in the future.

My idea was for a self-sustaining empire built on the principle of building a paradise on the backs of others. That way those favored by being on the chosen world(s) would flock to support the Slaaneshi lord. In addition to just CSM, he would field cultist troops or the equivalent of traitor PDF or traitor guard, because they want to continue their privileged life, and it would be an ideological lure to tempt others away from the Imperium. That lure of A Different Way after all is what the Imperium fears more from the Tau than the actual territorial losses from military conquest.

Not to beat a dead horse again but we have seen societies dedicated to various Chaos powers where there was a functioning society, because none of them were run by Astartes who are at their core weapons to be used.

The Laer society didn't collapse because the species worshipped Slaanesh. The Colchisians, Cadians and Isstavanians all had stable cultures that had some form of Chaos worship involved in their religious systems if not entirely based around it.
Yeah the Cadians were conduits for the Gods to tempt Lorgar, but again, that was because the Emperor stole from them so they wanted payback.

The problem in every instance is the Imperium and in a lot of cases, the Space Marines, showing up and messing up perfectly functioning societies in the name of Manifest Destiny.

The main issue with depicting Chaos as anything other than a violent force is because 40k is a Wargame not a setting, and even then that setting is WAR-Hammer not Analysis-Of-Various-Alien-And-Human-Societies-Hammer.

Wyldhunt: I don't want chaos to be depicted as unambiguous good guys either, and have said so numerous times in this thread. I just don't want them to be portrayed as so unambiguously bad, either.

We see this, sort of, in the Old World.

The Norscan Tribes do worship the Gods, but don’t necessarily make pacts with them.

The issue is with a society that seeks rule via Chaos? Pretty much anyone can do the same. If your answer is the overlord goes easy, and somehow resists the excess associated with being a Chaos Champion….how do you then stop the next person embracing that in hope of gaining greater favour from the gods and overthrowing you?

If the benefits of your society are only for the privileged elite? How do you stop those whose backs you stand on seeking power from the other gods, or even the same one?

Is there a safe way to harness chaos? I mean…possibly? Maybe? The Anaethema that kicked off the Heresy appears to be a weapon imbued with Chaos, but not exactly made in praise of the gods. So yes, it does seem possible to utilise chaos, but from what we’ve seen thus far, only in pretty limited and restrained ways,

And that quite likely requires a society where people have enough food, shelter, comfort etc. Where the desperation we typically see develop into Chaos Cults just doesn’t exist in sufficient level for a populace educated in the inherent dangers of mucking about the gods to consider it.

But, as soon as the High Heedyin got there by embracing the insane gods? There’s is nothing to stop others following suit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We see this, sort of, in the Old World.

The Norscan Tribes do worship the Gods, but don’t necessarily make pacts with them.

The issue is with a society that seeks rule via Chaos? Pretty much anyone can do the same. If your answer is the overlord goes easy, and somehow resists the excess associated with being a Chaos Champion….how do you then stop the next person embracing that in hope of gaining greater favour from the gods and overthrowing you?

If the benefits of your society are only for the privileged elite? How do you stop those whose backs you stand on seeking power from the other gods, or even the same one?

Is there a safe way to harness chaos? I mean…possibly? Maybe? The Anaethema that kicked off the Heresy appears to be a weapon imbued with Chaos, but not exactly made in praise of the gods. So yes, it does seem possible to utilise chaos, but from what we’ve seen thus far, only in pretty limited and restrained ways,

And that quite likely requires a society where people have enough food, shelter, comfort etc. Where the desperation we typically see develop into Chaos Cults just doesn’t exist in sufficient level for a populace educated in the inherent dangers of mucking about the gods to consider it.

But, as soon as the High Heedyin got there by embracing the insane gods? There’s is nothing to stop others following suit.

Chaos is meritocratic in that way, whereas true social mobility is nearly non-existent within the Imperium.

However the Chaos gods don't empower just anyone that calls upon them. Their gifts are an investment of power, however infinitisimal it may be to them as a whole, and not given freely. Somebody has to be talented and prove themselves worthy of gifts first and the vast majority of Chaos cultists and worshippers never gain the attention of their god. The old Realms of Chaos books and the 2nd edition Chaos Codex described how the Chaos gods gamble and wager over the battles on daemon worlds between their champions as the defeat and loss of a champion is a loss to the god, even if it is like the billionaires in Trading Places wagering a dollar.

One issue is that the setting refuses to show off any non-Imperial, non-Chaos independent humans.

They are the real proof of the Imperium's evil, because they show how unnecessary it is. They appeared frequently in the Great Crusade (where they were crushed by the Primarchs' armies, like the Interex and Diasporex) but because they don't have a model line they're basically not allowed to be showed off in 40k, which removes a crucial piece of context from the setting, namely the context that the Imperium is -not- required, you do -not- have to go full dystopia fascist to counter Chaos. The idea that the Imperium -is- necessary has become like a poison spreading through people on the periphery of the community.

Aye, if I was gonna run an RPG in the 40K universe for 40K newbies, I'd have the players be from a non-Imperial, Non-Chaos human faction of some sort - just a collection of worlds on the borders of human space. The Imperium is far more interesting as an antagonist.

Edit: For newbies, the weird mindset of the Imperium is hard to get into or understand, and they'd be likely to want more freedom or agency than the Imperium generally allows. I find it better with new players to give them protagonists who are not too distant from themselves in mindset, especially when it comes to core morals like attitudes toward slavery and so on.

Playing as Imperials is something you might do if you're a bigger fan of the setting or if you've played a few RPGs in the setting already.

I always felt it was an issue with Dark Heresy and those other games that you were always existing in the Imperial system and so had pretty limited agency.

It works okay for the Rogue Trader CRPG since it essentially holds your hands as you explore it in real time. Rougher for tabletop RPGs.

It means some extra work for you though, since you can't just fall back on existing fluff to detail the faction you chose.

Yeah that's true but I don't mind that sort of work. I must check out that Rogue Trader game eventually - I had a lot of fun running the Tabletop version, though it's a very weird kind of game - you have a massive ship with a gigantic crew as default, and that leads to some interesting problem solving by players generally - it's easy to "nuke it from orbit" in that scenario so you have to think a lot about how things are set up.

 Da Boss wrote:
Aye, if I was gonna run an RPG in the 40K universe for 40K newbies, I'd have the players be from a non-Imperial, Non-Chaos human faction of some sort - just a collection of worlds on the borders of human space. The Imperium is far more interesting as an antagonist.

Edit: For newbies, the weird mindset of the Imperium is hard to get into or understand, and they'd be likely to want more freedom or agency than the Imperium generally allows. I find it better with new players to give them protagonists who are not too distant from themselves in mindset, especially when it comes to core morals like attitudes toward slavery and so on.

Playing as Imperials is something you might do if you're a bigger fan of the setting or if you've played a few RPGs in the setting already.

I always felt it was an issue with Dark Heresy and those other games that you were always existing in the Imperial system and so had pretty limited agency.

Tbh there’s a reason in Dark Heresy you play Inquisitorial Acolytes - having a boss with formally unlimited authority means they can be given much more agency than one would otherwise get in the Imperium, without actually having the authority to blow up a planet themselves.

Yeah, I do understand that, but it means your game is essentially mission based, with the Inquisitor setting the agenda, rather than more freeform. Nothing really wrong with that! But it's not my preferred style these days.

It also means players might have to navigate inquisitorial and other imperial politics, which is again a bit of a challenge for newbies. For existing 40K fans, it's great fun of course.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah that's true but I don't mind that sort of work. I must check out that Rogue Trader game eventually - I had a lot of fun running the Tabletop version, though it's a very weird kind of game - you have a massive ship with a gigantic crew as default, and that leads to some interesting problem solving by players generally - it's easy to "nuke it from orbit" in that scenario so you have to think a lot about how things are set up.

Rogue Trader was the RPG I and my friends liked the most (back when we still did TTRPGs, pre-covid). It's essentially space adventure on a grand scale, and can be completely open-ended if the GM wants it to be.

You totally can nuke it from orbit, but only if it's a problem that can be solved by nuking it. Exploring a world for resources, negotiating deals, investigating colony ruins, mapping new routes and so on is not generally helped by nuking, at least not until things turn very sour.

If I state my opinion on Chaos stories I enjoy, people will throw internet based rocks at me like Kirk trying to kill the Gorn Captain.

Because I loved Dawn of War and it's subsequent expansions... which featured an Alpha Legion Sorcerer devoted to Khorne...

I don't really look for uniformity in Chaos.

To be perfectly honest, I really dislike Chaos armies where everyone looks like they got together and voted on what to wear.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Because I loved Dawn of War and it's subsequent expansions... which featured an Alpha Legion Sorcerer devoted to Khorne...

Dawn of War II: Retribution also has a Librarian fall to Khorne and be rewarded with Daemonhood.

Khorne being a hypocrite is part of the fun, anyway. The difference between sorcery and ritual is entirely arbitrary.

Been thinking on the species/societies which appeared to have successful chaos worshipping with limited downside.

And we never exactly meet them for long, do we? The Interex and Laer don’t last terribly long. So we as the reader never get to really understand how their societies work. So we can’t honestly say they weren’t doing vile, horrific things in the dark. We don’t know the cost of their actions. Extreme example for purpose of hyperbole and shock value? It could’ve been industrial scale child sacrifice for all we get to see of them. Not the sort of things someone who’s already decided to wipe you out is going to bother to look for. And, in the case of the Interex? Not the sort of things you exactly want to advertise to a potential ally.

The Laer were a crafted species in that individuals were created to fulfil a role within society.

This in turn allowed them to attain "perfection" in their form which was their way of worshipping Slaanesh.

It's what set Fabius Bile down his path of genetic manipulation of Geneseed because he theorised he could work on it and improve it, just as the Laer had done to their own genetic code.

Which still doesn’t mean they weren’t doing other extreme things in worship of Slaanesh.