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 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

I think competent leadership has become a fantasy we can all get behind these days.

It's not just Calgar, I detest ALL Ultramarines. Nothing pissed me off more as a Crimson Fists player than having someone see my army and say "Oh, you play Ultramarines." It's been happening since 2nd Edition when the Ultramarines suddenly became the posterchild for vanilla Marines.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I also find Calgar's lore a little too Gary Stu. I remember back in Vigilus where the author really wanted us to know that the only reason Calgar was losing his duel with Abaddon was because that was the plan and he was *letting* Abaddon win. Also in the recent SM2 video game one of the central points of Captain Titus is that he's unnaturally resistant to the warp and that creates a tonne of suspicion upon him. In the final climax Titus is barely able to just about resist the warp forces uses against him. Calgar meanwhile? Calgar just strolls through casually gunning everything down through sheer awesomeness. It's just... uh.

...and then it turns out that the whole plot of the game was for a Sorcerer to trap Calgar! Titus was 'just there'.

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

Honestly this is more or less the reason why people will say they like the old lore more, and that GWs lore now has some serious comic-book-heroification problems.

In the 2nd ed Codex, when I had my first army (Ultramarines), Calgar's big claim to fame was . . . nothing really explicit. He commanded the defense of Ultramar against Hive Fleet Behemoth. He commanded like a commander should. I think there's a story where he holds the line against some Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

Also in the 2nd ed book it highlights that the Ultramarines are efficient logisticians, portraying a habit with conquered worlds of ensuring defenses were in place, establishing trade routes and leaving advisors to make sure things go smoothly. It mentions that the region of Ultramar is so "prosperous and efficient" it always has several hundred regiments of PDF/Guard ready to go. Even to my 15 year old brain that all sounded like they were being . . . sensible.

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse. Mechanicaly, I 100% understand the hate. Calgar gets 3 models in a short span of time and a WS player can't even get a bike for their main dude, which is still better then the Crimson Fist guy who can't even get a model for his main dude. And the just convert argument doesn't work in a world of "no model, no rules". Am not even playing regular marines, and we still get backlash nerfs, because of marines (had our purgators destroyed as a unit for a whole edition, because of Ultramarines) . For regular marines it is even worde. Here is one subfaction with crazy model/rule support, OP too and each time GW decides to nerf your regular dudes, dreadnoughts etc you can get angry. You get more angry when GW starts to balance the whole faction around "well you have Calgar/Gulliman". Not so fun if you play Salamanders or even worse a homebrew chapter. Rules based hate I perfectly get.

Heck my psychic phase and psychic stuff is gone, because Tau have no psykers.

I'm less bothered by Calgar getting the models - especially with the change to the game plan vis-a-vis Terminators/Gravis than I am Njall not getting the models. They've both been Power or Terminator armor swaps. But that went away for Njall. I think its going away for Calgar too. Which is kind of sad. I like that they had swaps. I wish they all had Swaps. Lysander could flip back and forth between Terminator and Stern?-guard. Shrike between Terminator and Vanguard, and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

I think you're thinking of Tycho from the Blood Angels? Something about him holding some breach, getting buried under the rubble just as the black rage hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You mean like the time Ragnar Blackmane and Ghaz killed each other then both came back to life? Or the time Guilliman and Johnson came back to life. . .

I never paid much attention to the lore about named characters in general, and definitely since around 3rd or 4th edition or so. I heard there was a comic book for Calgar. I know little about it and I'm probably happier for it.

Back in my day we had Characters like Captain Invictus and Captain Tycho, both of whom had already died.

The graphic novel isn't that bad. Aside from what boils down to a couple trivia questions its not really about Calgar though - If I were writing a synopsis I'd say its more about pre-neophyte recruiting, with a sins-of-the-past/revenge subplot, but it could have been any Space Marine leader in the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

You see it more in the Horus Heresy era novels.
"Theoretical and Practical" plus the switch from Red Helmets being a mark of punishment to being a mark of honor for Sergeants when a Sergeant "borrows" some power weapons right before a Marine vs Marine fight and saves the day.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

Honestly this is more or less the reason why people will say they like the old lore more, and that GWs lore now has some serious comic-book-heroification problems.

In the 2nd ed Codex, when I had my first army (Ultramarines), Calgar's big claim to fame was . . . nothing really explicit. He commanded the defense of Ultramar against Hive Fleet Behemoth. He commanded like a commander should. I think there's a story where he holds the line against some Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

Also in the 2nd ed book it highlights that the Ultramarines are efficient logisticians, portraying a habit with conquered worlds of ensuring defenses were in place, establishing trade routes and leaving advisors to make sure things go smoothly. It mentions that the region of Ultramar is so "prosperous and efficient" it always has several hundred regiments of PDF/Guard ready to go. Even to my 15 year old brain that all sounded like they were being . . . sensible.

This actually made me think, getting into 40K there was a lot more colour and punk to the setting. And I wonder if pushing for Grimdark actually end up sanitised it away. Some of the setting still has it, but it feels like marines even if theoretically are horrifying for people to make are so far pushed to a power fantasy that it’s lost its bite.
The ultramarines being just good at what they do, where they are stuck within the system and despite there power still cannot break free is good stuff for the s setting.
This also I think effects the other chapters more, space wolves getting more wolf in space it felt for a while. But also the heresy being less myth and legends become just this is the history when 40K should evoke the dark ages.

So many thoughts and it makes me want to dig out 2nd edition books and see what I find. But all mine are stored away.

I am going to quote a good reddit post because I think this plays into why Calgar is disliked (though the problem is far from contained to him: )

Related to Importance Creep: Exclusivity/Prestige Creep.

The peak example is that the ultimate protagonist/hero of the Vraks campaign, a man who spoke to the Emperor and who led Grey Knights into battle on the nightmare skein of a burgeoning daemon world, was just some guy. He was a strong psyker, sure, but his name never gets a mention in the franchise's top fifty.

And the architect? The man whose whims drowned millions of screaming mouths in sucking mud, plague, caustic gas, and lasgun fire? Also just some guy. Who became a daemon prince of Nurgle, by the way.

Neither of those characters could be made in modern 40k because the franchise places no true narrative value on anyone who isn't a Space Marine or a Primarch. And while I enjoy both Space Marines and Primarchs, the setting is poorer when you don't have random-ass supermen like Hector Rex running around.

Hell, both Vraks and Badab also showcase that Space Marines don't have to be first- or second-founding chapters to matter, but stuff like that is a vanishing rarity nowadays.

It's not just that it's Calgar. It's that it's disproportionately Calgar, which makes the setting feel smaller. As said, it's not contained to him. When the Tau do something, you bet it's either Farsight or Shadowsun doing it.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

In retrospect, Malum Caedo would be tough to create rules for. He did kill 8 Greater Daemons and thousands of lesser demons, cultists, and Chaos Marines... by himself.

I haven't read it, and the story is probably better than this quote makes it sound... But this is exactly why BL should not be considered "Lore" - read it if you like it, don't if you don't... But NEVER expect the game to play like this because a) it doesn't and b) it shouldn't.

Personally, I HATE this tripe, and I think it damages the game. I wish GW would use greater editorial control and tell authors "Look, we are writing this either for people who play the game and want to read stories inspired by the game, or for people who will want to play the game after reading this story. Since your first draft is completely inconsistent with the game game, we're going to have to ask for another draft, because we can't publish this."

At the same time, I don't want to tell people what they can and can't read.

Malum Caedo is a video game character, not a novel character.

That is why he has such an absurd kill count. It's standard in video games. Look at the team of three nobodies in Space Marine 2 PvE matches carving their way through entire companies of Thousand Sons, your four squads in Dawn of War II taking on armies by themselves, and so on.

Malum Caedo is in a game where they tried to make a 40k spin on Doom, and the results are as expected.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Malum Caedo is a video game character, not a novel character.

That is why he has such an absurd kill count. It's standard in video games. Look at the team of three nobodies in Space Marine 2 PvE matches carving their way through entire companies of Thousand Sons, your four squads in Dawn of War II taking on armies by themselves, and so on.

Malum Caedo is in a game where they tried to make a 40k spin on Doom, and the results are as expected.

Ahhh. Wew! Because that was sounding bad even for BL. I guess a video game is gonna be what a video game is; I'm not sure how they could tone down the achievement of a POV video game character and still have an interesting / fun videogame.

Still, the point somewhat remains: considering this "lore" is just really antithetical to the tabletop game.

You think that's bad? Shas'la Kais has rolled more consecutive 6's than any T3, SV4,W1, BS4 model in the history of the setting.

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

I think you're thinking of Tycho from the Blood Angels? Something about him holding some breach, getting buried under the rubble just as the black rage hit.

Siege of Zalathras. Calgar holds the gate alone against the Ork hoard for a night and a day. Nothing OP about that at all. Gave his a rest from punching out Avatars probably.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

I think you're thinking of Tycho from the Blood Angels? Something about him holding some breach, getting buried under the rubble just as the black rage hit.

Siege of Zalathras. Calgar holds the gate alone against the Ork hoard for a night and a day. Nothing OP about that at all. Gave his a rest from punching out Avatars probably.

Ahh thanks! Where is that from? I couldn't find it in either the 2nd or 3rd ed codex.

At least the special rules for the Gauntlets were that opponents never got outnumbering bonuses, so in theory there's a scenario where that could work out. (Actually landing the final blow on an Avatar could happen in game too, though. Just sayin.)

That one is explained in the Ultramarines Omnibus as pure propaganda. Calgar was in reality deployed along with the entire First Company but the local officials decided that Calgar alone was the better heroic tale, the First Company never said anything and Calgar understood the power of propaganda to inspire the people of the Imperium so he just left it.

The curse of the UM Omnibuses is that it makes the Ultramarines slightly less cringeworthy but then also does the opposite at the same time.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

Nah, that the Imperial Fists.

Ultramarines are the entitled nepobabies with a bad colour scheme.

 Crimson wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

Nah, that the Imperial Fists.

Ultramarines are the entitled nepobabies with a bad colour scheme.

I hold to this day that during the Heresy the "Eldar incursion" that the entire Ultramarines legion was quelling was 17 Exodites with slingshots.

 Crimson wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

Nah, that the Imperial Fists.

Ultramarines are the entitled nepobabies with a bad colour scheme.

The YELLOW Marines gonna hate on color scheme? Seems like GREEN would be more appropriate. For envy! :p

For reals though, when I started in 2nd there wasn't much on the Fists. Of the big 4 that were expanded on, UM were the most straightforward and sensible.

Imperial Fists were of course featured in the great Ian Watson (RIP ) novel, but they had their own masochistic bend to them. Still very cool though.

As we learned from the wonderful Ultramarines movie, they only need to put like 10 guys on a battle Barge.

They must be amazing.

The Imperial Fists on the other hand...

 Insectum7 wrote:

The YELLOW Marines gonna hate on color scheme?

Yes! The IF have one of the best colour schemes, especially when they are weathered properly. The UM blue is very meh, and I don't understand why GW uses it as the default colour scheme, as it just makes everything look worse.

Seems like GREEN would be more appropriate. For envy! :p

But of course green is the reason why UM aren't the worst. DA green is kinda bad too, and the bright green of the Salamanders is the absolute worst.

For reals though, when I started in 2nd there wasn't much on the Fists. Of the big 4 that were expanded on, UM were the most straightforward and sensible.

Yeah, true. Then again, back then the Angel chapters and the Wolves were way less flanderised too. I think it was Ward's fanboy take on the Ultras that made them totally insufferable, and they have never recovered from it.

Agreed with the Ward-lore 100%.

It's true, bashed and worn out IF can look pretty great. IMO the strength of UM blue is that the highlights pop more against the darker color, and I dig the crisp white heraldry and squad badges against it. TBF though, I haven't actually painted an Ultramarine for . . . Almost 30 years ffffffffff...

And now, it turns out this whole shebang on Armageddon is somehow Calgar's idea.

WarCom wrote:The book features details about some of the main Space Marines Chapters on Armageddon – including the Blood Angels, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Black Templars, and White Scars – and the Ork clans they’re fighting – the Goffs, Evil Sunz, Deathskulls, Bad Moons, Snakebites, and Blood Axes. There’s more on the heroes involved, including Commissar Yarrick, Ghazghkull Thraka, and Marneus Calgar – Operation Imperator was the Chapter Master’s idea!

Cannot let the other chapters to have the spotlight!

God forbid Yarrick, who Chapter Masters canonically defer to when it comes to the Orks and Armageddon, could have come up with any of this.

I'm glad that there isn't some sort of giant rift splitting the galaxy in two, which would make it difficult for Chapters in Imperium Nihilus to send troops to a war on the other side.

Seems like a bad attempt to shoehorn mainline chapters into the fight so they can justify having everyone involved again on Armageddon. Poor Yarrick, de-iced just to have the spotlight stolen by John Space Marine. Wait for it, somehow Titus will get reassigned here to this warzone instead of the 500 worlds because raisins.

The days of Badab and Vraks are long past. If something happens now, you have to be one of the characters and organisations judged important enough to be allowed into 40k Smash Bros.

 BorderCountess wrote:
And now, it turns out this whole shebang on Armageddon is somehow Calgar's idea.

WarCom wrote:The book features details about some of the main Space Marines Chapters on Armageddon – including the Blood Angels, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Black Templars, and White Scars – and the Ork clans they’re fighting – the Goffs, Evil Sunz, Deathskulls, Bad Moons, Snakebites, and Blood Axes. There’s more on the heroes involved, including Commissar Yarrick, Ghazghkull Thraka, and Marneus Calgar – Operation Imperator was the Chapter Master’s idea!

Just the current shebang.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Seems like a bad attempt to shoehorn mainline chapters into the fight so they can justify having everyone involved again on Armageddon. Poor Yarrick, de-iced just to have the spotlight stolen by John Space Marine. Wait for it, somehow Titus will get reassigned here to this warzone instead of the 500 worlds because raisins.

Those are mostly the chapters that have already been on Armageddon. The first one was just the wolves, but the second and third were Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Salamanders, and Black Templars.

I’d like it if Calgar’s plan doesn’t go so well, quite possibly due to something Yarrick predicted.
Let the protagonists (1) be fallible and (2) fight amongst themselves.

The guy with a bionic eye and single, larger Powerfist taken from an enemy, vs. the guy with a bionic eye and two Powerfists taken from an enemy!