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Check out this idea.

Belial, w/ whatever weapons you feel like giving him.

3x 5 company vets w/ las/plas

4x 5 deathwing w/ assault cannons

ravenwing teleport homers to your points limit

 

Happy Hunting

 

no you cant, they just suck.

The stuff you talked about is all that you can afford...no ravenwing teleport homers.

Its actually only 1515 points. So in a 1750 pt list you still have 235 points to buy raven wing with.

That's three bikes w/ two meltas and a power weapon and an attack bike w/ muti-melta.

leaves thirty points for a deathwing standard or an apothecary.

..and what a great list that would be.

Lemme think, a lot of this is from memory as I didn't buy the dex but only read it a few times at the store.

Master of Ravenwing is 205, he gets the AV14 Speeder

A 6 bike Ravenwing squad with a PF is 245 I think, assuming the melta guns are still 10 a pop, it works out to 265 a squad.
10 Devs with 4 Lascannons should be 305 Points, assault cannon speeders are 100....

I was thinking something like 2x10 Devs w/ 4 Lascannons combat squadded out to 4 squads. Two Ravenwing bikers as troops with the dual meltas, they can pull of a first turn charge when they need to most of the time, which is just great against a lot of armies. Plus you get to run up and melta/tl bolter them before charging, not a bad deal.

The speeder is probably the Best HQ they've got, he's a scoring unit and he's an AV14 Fast Skimmer, what's not to love?

Problem is with all the compulsary stuff bought you can get one speeder tornado in the army and still have a little over 50 points to spend on the list before you hit 1500 points, and it's still not that good.

I think Dark Angels are competitve, so much so that I will probably start the army.

There are several ways to get them competitve, but it really forces you to throw out the conventional Marine lists, and start reavaluating things from the ground up.

Here are a few of the lists that have been thrown around that I think show a lot of promise.

Drop Pod Dark Angles:

Green Bloater has tested this list, he said that a Chaos Deamonbomd gave up on the third turn versus it. Here is a rough list of what he took:

Master of the Ravenwing

x2 Veterans in Drop Pods (since they have base 2 attacks, variable squad sizes and multiple weapons to choose from)

x2 Ravenwing Sqauds

x3 Assault Squads (they get free Drop Pods, have 2 attacks as well because of their CC weapons)

Ravenwing

Any army that can field 7 Land Speeders regularly with one being AV14, backed up by bikes and the rest of the army list seems good to me. Though it will be extremely fragile.

Deathwing

I am experimenting with a Deathwing list right now. It seems to me that you can't avoid at least one Ravenwing Sqaud. Since it doesn't have the shooty that other Terminator Heavy lists have, you have to rely more on assault. Something that the Deathwing Assault rule helps out well with.

Shooty Dark Angels

A core of 2 Las/plas Tactical Squads and 2 4 Lascannon Devestator Squads gives you 10 Lascannons split between 6 units for 1000 points. Not a bad core. Plus your access to Ravenwing, Assault Suads, Terminators, etc. can provide a good support.



Overall, I don't think the list is bad. I just think it will take a while for players to adjest.

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 6:45 AM
x3 Assault Squads (they get free Drop Pods, have 2 attacks as well because of their CC weapons).

Unless, I'm missing something, DA Assault Squads don't get Drop Pods for free. Assuming the usual squad size of 8 Marines, and assuming the Drop Pod costs 50 (I think they cost a different amount in the DA Codex, right?), then you're paying 54 points for the Drop Pod.

In addition, you're losing the Assault Marines' greatest advantage: mobility.

I don't see how Assault Squads in Drop Pods would work. Drop Pod lands late and everyone piles out on opposite side to hide, although that's not always possible. Enemy blows up Drop Pod and kills (statistically) one or more of the Marines. Assault Marines walk 6" around the corner and assault a sacrifical unit or are unable to assault. Assault Marines then die to incoming fire.

I don't get the pluses there.

EDIT: Thinking about it, maybe three squads of them working in tandem could work, although the chances of that are damn slim. Almost non-existent, in fact. And the army working against one other army in one game is hardly proof that the army concept works. I can't think of a better army for a DP-ing SM army to take on than a CDB.

Is it unplayable? Not at all.

Is it as competitive as comparable armies (i.e. Lysanderwing)? Not on your life.

I have tried to make DW a decent list and let me just say that termies are relegated to their third editioon role as shelf trophies.

DA as a whole arent bad at all, but for the love of god dont take termies in your list. They are just no longer worth the points.

• No second heavy weapon
• no vet skils
• no weapon options for the sgt (such as combi flamers)
• no drop pods (not that they are neccessary)

Balanced with:

• Mixed assault weapon squads
• DW assault rule (wow! [/sarcasm])
• Fearless (this shouldnt be considered a boon, but a detriment as you get outnumbered easily, making you even worse in assault and taking more wounds)

Big whoop. Overall less, for MORE POINTS!

DA are fine as an army if you completly ignore termies.

Stu-Rat, technically Assault Squads are just overpriced Marines with a free Drop pod. The difference is important because a free drop pod doesn't give up any points when it lands. Green Bloater will have to come on here and tell us why that is a good idea to take them. But I think it has to do with recieving charges more than trying to pull of a charge yourself.

Hellfury, I don't have any experience yet, but in thery I don't think Deathwing is that far off from competitve. The current list I have has 30 Terminators compared to the Lysanderwing of 25. So even though my shooting is greatly reduced, I can put down more numbers than a Lysanderwing in Terminators, and I can be better in assault. If Deathwing goes up against Lysanderwing, it all comes down to how many Lysanderwing can kill before they are out assaulted.


Here is my current list if you are interested in what I am looking at:


Beliel, Master of the Deathwing w/ Lightning Claws = 130 ptz.

Deathwing Terminator Squad w/ 3 Lighting Claws, 2 Thunderhammer/Storm Shield, Deathwing Standard = 240 pts.

x3 Deathwing Terminator Squad w/ Assault Cannon = 250 pts. (750 pts.)

x2 Deathwing Terminator Squad w/ CML, Chainfist = 240 pts. (480 pts.)

Dreadnought w/ Heavy Flamer in Drop Pod = 180 pts.

6-man Ravenwing Bike Squad = 220 pts.

Total = 2000 pts.

That's 30 Terminators, 4 Assault Cannons, 2 Missle Launchers, and at least a Thunderhammer in each squad.

Compare to Lysanderwing which is usually 25 Terminators, Lysander, Librarian, 3 Land Speeders, 2 Scout Squads. Which equats to 13 Assault Cannons, every terminator has Powerfists.

This is basically how the game will go. Deathwing set up their bikes behind cover. Lysanderwing sets up Scouts and Land Speeders behind cover. Scouts are usually spread out to allow the Lysanderwing player to better react to the enemy, so Ravenwing Bikers use their scout move to put a teleport homer as close to the Scouts as possible, whilst still maintining cover. If Deathwing goes first they drop three squads next to one of the scout squads in an effort to kill them to the man to force the Lysanderwing to deploy on the opposite side. The Deathwing will try and split the difference between the two scout squads so if they survive the Lysander Drop they can assault on turn two. If Lysander goes first, the Land Speeders will try and kill the ravenwing bikers is they can, but because each biker is Fearless and has a teleport homer, good luck. First they would have to see them and then kill every one of them to stop the inevitable. Say that half my Terminators are exposed to fire on turn two. A single 2 Assault cannon terminator squad can kill 1.55 terminators on average so five squads can kill 7.73 out of 15 which is roughly half. However, if the Deathwing player can assault the Lysanderwing line and hold them in combat, eventually they will win because of the higher initiative Lightning Claws on the sergents and the fact that Beliel and his squad will evetually show up and join the fun with his 6 attacks on the charge and the 15 lighting claws and 8 Thunderhammer attacks from his squad.

I most definately agree that the Deathwing will be fighting an uphill battle, but I don't think it is an instant wash in Lysanders favor.

For my own plans... Venerable dreads, belial, few termi squads, probably with heavy flamers... honestly if I can have then knocking on your door on turn one why not a str5 ap4 template?  couple small ravenwing squads, destructor pred or two, and techmarines <no upgrades> with gun servitors.  Heck I debated using plasma cannons on the dreads, and making all the gun servitors PC's as well.  Maybe the army will end up being rather novelty, but I will have fun with it.
Aztralwolf

Anyone noticed how incredibly cheap the autocannon/heavy bolter preds are?

Might be an idea to exploit this, not sure how it would fit into the army otherwise..

I was thinking on basing the army list on the books strengths.

1 unit of terminators that always gets to deepstrike on turn 1

Cheap predators (seem best with the cheap autocannon)

Likely first turn assualting bikes (so why not take a few) I was thinking 3*3 with fist sarge and 1 with dual melta/plasma for first turn tank busting or something.

Speeder because even at 100pts its still worth it for sure.

HQ + troops are all that is missing.

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 8:13 AM
 If Deathwing goes up against Lysanderwing, it all comes down to how many Lysanderwing can kill before they are out assaulted.

Thats a pretty big "if".
Imperial fists get more for the points, simple as that. Fearing DW assault is ok if youre 12 years old I suppose.

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 8:13 AM

Hellfury, I don't have any experience yet, but in thery I don't think Deathwing is that far off from competitve. The current list I have has 30 Terminators compared to the Lysanderwing of 25. So even though my shooting is greatly reduced, I can put down more numbers than a Lysanderwing in Terminators...

Untrue. I can have up to 52 termies in a lysander list, but on average no more than 30 (5 x 6 man units...) The one thing Lysander cannot match againt DW is tha amount of different termie units.

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 8:13 AM
....and I can be better in assault.

I am not so sure about that. You discount many things in your theory. First off, I use furious charge for my termies, prefering to go first @ str 5 (three of those attacks are with a power sword) as opposed to utilizing powerfists.If the librarians squad hits belials squad, i will not only go first, but I will have up to 12  str5 power weapon attacks before you can even raise a lightning claw.

By that factor alone, I will out assault a deathwing army. In this case, I can even use torrent of blows against you, picking out your precious assault weapons.

Thats not even taking into consideration my being able to out shoot you if you decide to use assault weapons in your squad. which can aslo use torrent of fire against you quite easily, giving me a nice CML/LC termie for my efforts as an example. You better add an apothecary to that unit...

Not to mention I will be able to bring down all my forces at once, and being able to choose when to bring them down.

No, I dont think that the new deathwing can stand toe to toe with lysanderwing at all. You spend far too many points on needless options such as bikers to ensure a teleport homer.

But what would I know? I only played DW exclusively for the last year and a half and I only have fought against the new DW with my lysander numerous times for the past 4 months using the new DA codex with extremely competant opponents. While it isnt a slaughter, they do have distinct disadvantages that wont allow DW to fair any better than they did last edition.

DW assault and mixed weapons hardly make up for what they used to be, and even then it was a tough fight to pull off draws.

As I said before, Termies are a wash out for the new DA, but I encourage anyone who feels that they will be a competitive army in 4th to dream away in candy land about their imaginary victories.

[edit]

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 8:13 AM

Here is my current list if you are interested in what I am looking at:


Beliel, Master of the Deathwing w/ Lightning Claws = 130 ptz.

Deathwing Terminator Squad w/ 3 Lighting Claws, 2 Thunderhammer/Storm Shield, Deathwing Standard = 240 pts.

x3 Deathwing Terminator Squad w/ Assault Cannon = 250 pts. (750 pts.)

x2 Deathwing Terminator Squad w/ CML, Chainfist = 240 pts. (480 pts.)

Dreadnought w/ Heavy Flamer in Drop Pod = 180 pts.

6-man Ravenwing Bike Squad = 220 pts.

Total = 2000 pts.

That's 30 Terminators, 4 Assault Cannons, 2 Missle Launchers, and at least a Thunderhammer in each squad.

Compare to Lysanderwing which is usually 25 Terminators, Lysander, Librarian, 3 Land Speeders, 2 Scout Squads. Which equats to 13 Assault Cannons, every terminator has Powerfists.

This is basically how the game will go. Deathwing set up their bikes behind cover. Lysanderwing sets up Scouts and Land Speeders behind cover. Scouts are usually spread out to allow the Lysanderwing player to better react to the enemy, so Ravenwing Bikers use their scout move to put a teleport homer as close to the Scouts as possible, whilst still maintining cover. If Deathwing goes first they drop three squads next to one of the scout squads in an effort to kill them to the man to force the Lysanderwing to deploy on the opposite side. The Deathwing will try and split the difference between the two scout squads so if they survive the Lysander Drop they can assault on turn two. If Lysander goes first, the Land Speeders will try and kill the ravenwing bikers is they can, but because each biker is Fearless and has a teleport homer, good luck. First they would have to see them and then kill every one of them to stop the inevitable. Say that half my Terminators are exposed to fire on turn two. A single 2 Assault cannon terminator squad can kill 1.55 terminators on average so five squads can kill 7.73 out of 15 which is roughly half. However, if the Deathwing player can assault the Lysanderwing line and hold them in combat, eventually they will win because of the higher initiative Lightning Claws on the sergents and the fact that Beliel and his squad will evetually show up and join the fun with his 6 attacks on the charge and the 15 lighting claws and 8 Thunderhammer attacks from his squad.

I most definately agree that the Deathwing will be fighting an uphill battle, but I don't think it is an instant wash in Lysanders favor.

For the sake of comparison, here is what I typically bring in 2000 pt Lysanderwing.

1 Captain Lysander w/ furious charge 387 Pts

     3 Terminator Command Squad
          Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2); Furious
          Charge Skill
1 Sergeant, Power Weapon (x1); Bolter-Flamer; Furious Charge Skill
              

1 Epistolary Librarian 389 Pts
     Force Weapon; Power Weapon (x1); Furious Charge Skill, Terminator Armour
1st Might of Heroes 5
2nd Fury of the Ancients 9

     3 Terminator Command Squad
          Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2); Furious
          Charge Skill
1 Sergeant, Power Weapon (x1); Bolter-Flamer; Furious Charge Skill


4 Terminator Squad 260 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Furious Charge
     Skill
1 Sergeant , Power Weapon (x1); Bolter-Flamer; Furious Charge Skill


4 Terminator Squad 260 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunter Skill
1 Sergeant , Power Weapon (x1); Bolter-Flamer; Tank Hunter Skill

4 Terminator Squad 260 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunter Skill
1 Sergeant , Power Weapon (x1); Bolter-Flamer; Tank Hunter Skill

4 Scout Squad 113 Pts
     Sniper Rifle (x3); Missile Launcher (x1); Infilitrate Skill
1 Veteran Sergeant, Sniper Rifle, Teleport Homer

4 Scout Squad 113 Pts
     Sniper Rifle (x3); Missile Launcher (x1); Infilitrate Skill
1 Veteran Sergeant, Sniper Rifle, Teleport Homer

1 Vindicator Assault Tank 125 Pts

1 Whirlwind Battery  85 Pts

No traits

Models in Army: 37
Total Army Cost: 1992


You are being outshot, as you already know. I wonder what would be left for you to make your fabulous assaults after I plow you down with ordnance?

As before in the 4th ed SM codex, assault termies are the biggest waste of points. The DW assault rule does not make them any better, it just makes them a priority target. Thanks for the VP's!

Posted By vsurma on 03/14/2007 8:59 AM
Anyone noticed how incredibly cheap the autocannon/heavy bolter preds are?

Might be an idea to exploit this, not sure how it would fit into the army otherwise..

Yeah, they cost less by the same amount that a Vet costs a normal SM squad.  Add in the added cost of the plasma gun and lascannon in a Tac squad (And the requirement to have 10 bodies in the squad), the price break isn't enough to be worth it.

Hellfury, it just might be different playstyles.

The Lysanderwing I usually play against never takes Furious Charge, full scout squads, and Land Speeders over the two tanks you take.

I wonder thought, why would you factor Furious Charge as an advantage over Deathwing? First, Deathwing is dropping in on turn 1, that means the turn you show up, you are the one on the recieving end of the assault negating your Furious Assault. Second, even if you do get a charge against the Deathwing, you are either only having a sergent get higher strikes or your turning your powerfists off niether seem that impressive to me.

I do agree that Lysanderwing has the advantage. The access to Veteran Skills, and the second heavy is a huge boast.

But I do think that Deathwing can be competitve because a) they get the first turn deepstrike allowing assaults on the second turn, b) you can field more Terminators, c) they are Fearless, unlike regular terminatorss, d) they are not assault terminators, rather regular terminators that can take a few Assault Terminators here and there, e) access to the banner of the Deathwing allows a squad to have a rediculous number of attacks per Terminator.

I fully admit that your experience may trump my opinion, but I think you are too quick to judge the new Deathwing.

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 10:58 AM
Hellfury, it just might be different playstyles.

The Lysanderwing I usually play against never takes Furious Charge, full scout squads, and Land Speeders over the two tanks you take.

I wonder thought, why would you factor Furious Charge as an advantage over Deathwing? First, Deathwing is dropping in on turn 1, that means the turn you show up, you are the one on the recieving end of the assault negating your Furious Assault. Second, even if you do get a charge against the Deathwing, you are either only having a sergent get higher strikes or your turning your powerfists off niether seem that impressive to me.

I do agree that Lysanderwing has the advantage. The access to Veteran Skills, and the second heavy is a huge boast.

But I do think that Deathwing can be competitve because a) they get the first turn deepstrike allowing assaults on the second turn, b) you can field more Terminators, c) they are Fearless, unlike regular terminatorss, d) they are not assault terminators, rather regular terminators that can take a few Assault Terminators here and there, e) access to the banner of the Deathwing allows a squad to have a rediculous number of attacks per Terminator.

I fully admit that your experience may trump my opinion, but I think you are too quick to judge the new Deathwing.

As someone who has tried to make the new DW workable, I think your opinion that I am making hasty decisions is unfounded.

You dont have to be impressed with Furious Charge. But before I left Montana, it was reckoned by the DW players I gave access to the prerelease DA codex for use came to fear how out DWed their DW armies were because of that factor.

belial cannot go toe to toe with lysander's libby sqaud because of Furious charge alone.

a) they get the first turn deepstrike allowing assaults on the second turn
Hardly an advantage. But if you like it and think its makes them playable, have fun.
 b) you can field more Terminators
As I already pointed out, that is untrue, unless you factor in games that have a huge amount of points, and then termie heavy armies start to become worse because of how radically outnumbered and outmaneuvered they are.
c) they are Fearless, unlike regular terminators
LOL! And this is an advantage how? Normal termies have ATSKNF which is vastly superior tactically than fearless.
 d) they are not assault terminators, rather regular terminators that can take a few Assault Terminators here and there
Mixed assault or pure assault, it is quite proven that assault termies are considerably over priced, because they cannot shoot. Thats all there is to it.
 e) access to the banner of the Deathwing allows a squad to have a rediculous number of attacks per Terminator.
+1 attack per termie in that squad? Yeah, that might be scary if I somehow have a brain tumor and allow them to assault.

The only good thing that jervis has added for the DW is termie apothecary.
But it is only a single one, so they dont make much of a difference. Now if every squad could have access, then I wouldnt be nearly so down on them, as atleast they would have the staying power to make it into assault to use those purdy lightning claws. I would glady trade an assault cannon for an oppurtunity to pay +25 points for an apothecary.

Sorry bud, but I will just have to respectfully disagree that DW youre proposing is anywhere near competitive. Good luck trying though. Just dont have a brain hemorage as I did trying to make an army I wanted to work so bad turn sour because it is a sad option and merely a wisp of a memory of what it once was. Thats sad because it wasnt that great to begin with.

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 8:13 AM
Stu-Rat, technically Assault Squads are just overpriced Marines with a free Drop pod.

You say potato, I say tomato.  Hugely overpiced is more like it. And you still paying more points for a unit that loses mobility, gives up points and can't do anything. Seems fairly stupid to me, but like I said maybe I'm missing the obvious.

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 8:13 AM
The difference is important because a free drop pod doesn't give up any points when it lands.

The drop-pod may not actually give any points itself but the squad certainly will. When you have the choice between a useful unit in a drop-pod that sacrifices 15VPs or a useless unit that gives up nearly 200VPs in a drop-pod that doesn't, I know which one any competitive player is going to take. 

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 8:13 AM
Green Bloater will have to come on here and tell us why that is a good idea to take them. But I think it has to do with recieving charges more than trying to pull of a charge yourself.

Hmm... so a slow-moving unit with short-range weaponry that will have trouble doing anything, just stands there and waits to be charged?

Sorry, don't see the point you're trying to make.

That is huge, you can shut down enemy shooting earlier and even get the drop on units that rely on Deepstrike. Versus a Lysanderwing, that usually means I have a better chance of charging you before you charge me.



I already posted a 2000 point list with 5 more Terminators than a Lysanderwing can legally field. I do admit that a Lysanderwing can field a better support system than Deathwing can.



That is a huge advantage. I can't tell you how many times I wiped out a Terminator Squad by breaking them in assault with a Bloodthirster and a support unit (so they couldn't pull out of assault).



That's why most Deathwing Squads will have more Powerfist Marines than Assault Marines. But the fact that I can have a Lighting Clawed Sergent automatically makes the Deathwing Sqaud slightly better at assault. Remember your Terminator Squad with Vet. Skills and 2 Assault Cannons is actually more expensive than the typical Deathwing Sqaud (by a small fraction)



That's why you use other Terminator Squads or your Ravenwing bikes to pin a squad in place to follow up with the super assault squad. Or against most armies, they drop on turn one right in front of a week spot in the lines and wait.



Beliel himself can't, but Beliel with a Terminator Sqaud with lightning claws and the Banner of the Deathwing can. Like I said, you are either going first and bouncing off my 2+ or your waiting until after the lightning claws to distroy over half your squad.



But I digress, you have the superior experience and it is obvious neither of us will change our minds anytime soon. I fully admit that I may become just as bitter towards them as you.

I am curious however to see what kind of Deathwing lists you where experimenting with.

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 11:53 AM
...you can shut down enemy shooting earlier and even get the drop on units that rely on Deepstrike. Versus a Lysanderwing, that usually means I have a better chance of charging you before you charge me.

I don't get this, either. How can you get the drop on units that rely on deepstrike? Half your army lands on Turn #1, with nothing to shoot at. His deepstrikers come in on Turn #2, land near your Termies and wipe them out. You now have half an army, coming in on random turns, against his army (and he might still have deepstrikers available). You have no option to charge. 

I already posted a 2000 point list with 5 more Terminators than a Lysanderwing can legally field. I do admit that a Lysanderwing can field a better support system than Deathwing can.

You mean termie squads and not just termies right...?



That is a huge advantage. I can't tell you how many times I wiped out a Terminator Squad by breaking them in assault with a Bloodthirster and a support unit (so they couldn't pull out of assault).

Odd. I find that fearless is a HUGE disadvantage. Must be regional play styles.




That's why most Deathwing Squads will have more Powerfist Marines than Assault Marines. But the fact that I can have a Lighting Clawed Sergent automatically makes the Deathwing Sqaud slightly better at assault. Remember your Terminator Squad with Vet. Skills and 2 Assault Cannons is actually more expensive than the typical Deathwing Sqaud (by a small fraction)

And more effective, by a huge margin.



That's why you use other Terminator Squads or your Ravenwing bikes to pin a squad in place to follow up with the super assault squad. Or against most armies, they drop on turn one right in front of a week spot in the lines and wait.


I find that wishful thinking at best, but possible.



Beliel himself can't, but Beliel with a Terminator Sqaud with lightning claws and the Banner of the Deathwing can. Like I said, you are either going first and bouncing off my 2+ or your waiting until after the lightning claws to distroy over half your squad.

Youre kidding me right? Belial with 5 LC and a std get 32 str 4 power weapon attacks on the charge at Initiative 4.
A libby using power weapon, might of heroes and FC along with his squad get  up to 12 power str 5 weapon attack and 9 more normal str 5 attacks at initiative 5.

Tell me again how belial is better? Certainly, who ever charges whom will be the clear winner, but the point remains that belial and his squad will crumble under assault by a libby with FA is beyond a doubt. As I said before, how you percieve Lysander matches up against DW is clearly not as well thought out as you beleive.

But your right though, you definatly wont change my mind. Been there done that. Have fun with it, as saying it most certainly will be a challenge is a huge understatement.

Anyways, Ill do better than give you a list, Ill give you a battle report posted months ago here.
www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/17/view/topic/postid/125964/Default.aspx

You are oversimplifing. Every Lysanderwing has a support squad, usually scouts that deliever homers to keep the Terminator drop he gets safe. If the Deathwing can get to the center of the board and wipe out one support squad, than he can either assault one way or the other. It is statistically improbable that any Lysanderwing can wipe out every terminator the turn they drop. That is assuming a few things a) the Deathwing does no damage to the already set up units the turn they drop, b) Every Lysander terminator squad kills above statistics, c) there is absolutely no terrain for the Deathwing to limit return fire. d) the Lysanderwing has enough room to set up their whole army with enough room to deny the charge of the Deathwing Terminators (which on a standard 4' x 6' board is only 12"-24" from the table edge if the Deathwing take the center).



Math Time!:

Librarian with Might of Heroes, 5 Terminators, Furious Charge charges Beliel's Squad:

Librarian gets (let's say maximum for sake of arguement) 6+3 = 9 attacks on the charge, 5.94 hit, 3.92 wound, 2.6 dead Terminators

Sergent gets 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, .99 Wound, 0.65 dead Terminators

4 terminators turn there powerfists off, 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3.96 wound, 0.63 dead Terminators

So if everything goes you way perfectly (assumeing the Deathwing don't have a Librarian as well, assuming you pass your test for might of heroes, and assuming you roll the maximum amount of attacks) = You kill 4 Terminators

Beliel and a Terminator are left.

Beliel gets 5 Attacks standing still (there is no reason not to take lightning claws on him), 3.3 hit, 1.65 wound + 0.825 re-roll = 2.475 wounds, 1.634 Dead Terminators

Terminator with Lightning Claws gets 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 +0.375 = 1.125 wounds, 0.74 dead Terminators

So in return, I kill roughly 2 in return. So you don't outnumber me horribly, therefore you are tied into CC for us both to support.

Not so much a wipe out as it seems. And that is assuming a lot as well.

Let me see if I understand this logic.

Your going to deep strike and shoot his scouts. (by the way, even with 3 assault cannons, you only get 4 scouts if they're in 5+ cover, and they will be against another deep strike list)

Hes going to deep strikes around 20 inches (which allows room for a scatter) away and shoot you. (and he can force a later drop with his re roll)

Knowing you have no possible way of catching him, and no possible way of out shooting him, you forfeit.

Sound about right?


Assault Terminators were not viable in the vanilla codex, why would they be playable after a price hike? Deep Striking has always encouraged shooting, not assault. If you think about it, there are zero CC units that deep strike. Why? Because it lets them shoot at you first, not the other way around.

Hmmm dark angels rock so hard i can hardly believe you posted it that way. Ok now that out of the way.

Assault and deepstrike is very nice when you play a ravenwing and DW mix. By the way many assault units i can think of in the marine army do have deepstrike???? If you play pure DW your going to be outshot by Lysander. If you play Lysander than you will be beat in cc. Simple enough.

By the way you cannot take Lysander and play the true fists and still have furious charge. Where did you ever dig that up?????

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 12:45 PM
Math Time!:

Librarian with Might of Heroes, 5 Terminators, Furious Charge charges Beliel's Squad:

Librarian gets (let's say maximum for sake of arguement) 6+3 = 9 attacks on the charge, 5.94 hit, 3.92 wound, 2.6 dead Terminators

Sergent gets 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, .99 Wound, 0.65 dead Terminators

4 terminators turn there powerfists off, 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3.96 wound, 0.63 dead Terminators

So if everything goes you way perfectly (assumeing the Deathwing don't have a Librarian as well, assuming you pass your test for might of heroes, and assuming you roll the maximum amount of attacks) = You kill 4 Terminators

Beliel and a Terminator are left.

Beliel gets 5 Attacks standing still (there is no reason not to take lightning claws on him), 3.3 hit, 1.65 wound + 0.825 re-roll = 2.475 wounds, 1.634 Dead Terminators

Terminator with Lightning Claws gets 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 +0.375 = 1.125 wounds, 0.74 dead Terminators

So in return, I kill roughly 2 in return. So you don't outnumber me horribly, therefore you are tied into CC for us both to support.

Not so much a wipe out as it seems. And that is assuming a lot as well.

However, if the termies don't turn thier power fists off, it's a different story. 

Using fractions because your math is off.

Librarian kills 8/3 termies.  Sgt kills 2/3.  Total kill 3 1/3, leaving Belial, one lightning claw, and 2/3 power fist (For argument's sake).

Belial kills 5/3 termies.  Lightning claw termie kills 3/4, leaving 1 7/12 power fists.  Enough kills that they can take the squad out of combat and just splatter Belial with fists. 

Of course, this assumes that the squad doesn't charge so as to not engage Belial or to only engage Belial.  It also ignores the 1 29/81 terminators that are killed by the squad sans librarian shooting.

Posted By 5thelement on 03/14/2007 2:59 PM

By the way you cannot take Lysander and play the true fists and still have furious charge. Where did you ever dig that up?????

Youre mistaken. Just follow the entry in Lysander's profile, then the entry for command termies.

Lysander's rules for command squads:


Terminator command squad entry:


Notice anything that allows characters that are attached to the command squad to take vet skills?

Something tells me that you enjoy it when you get to post that.

Lol.
Its only the 6th time I have had to post it.

I am sure it wont be the last time either.

Biggest advantage of Deathwing over Lysanderwing is that the former is allowed at tournaments and the latter is not. I can't remember ever being at a 40K tournament that allowed special characters.

As a separate argument I'm not so sure you're allowed to buy Lysander Furious Charge since special characters can't be given any new upgrades. The fact that he can take a command squad doesn't change the fact he can't be given any new weapons or wargear or veteran skills

Posted By Mahu on 03/14/2007 12:45 PM

I don't get this, either. How can you get the drop on units that rely on deepstrike? Half your army lands on Turn #1, with nothing to shoot at. His deepstrikers come in on Turn #2, land near your Termies and wipe them out. You now have half an army, coming in on random turns, against his army (and he might still have deepstrikers available). You have no option to charge.

You are oversimplifing. Every Lysanderwing has a support squad,

Ah, I see. You're actually over-simplyfing by defining an army's competitve ability by putting it up against one other army. I was never talking about Lysander-wing, but in fairness, you were.

Still, the points you make are largely irrelevant. Any army with a sizeable deepstriking component will benefit, when going up against a similar army, in going second. Thus the Deathwing 'advantage' of landing on the first turn is in, reality, a huge drawback.

 

And that still doesn't answer my first question, namely: what possible use is taking a droppod for DA Assault Marines?

Posted By Therion- on 03/14/2007 7:00 PM
Biggest advantage of Deathwing over Lysanderwing is that the former is allowed at tournaments and the latter is not. I can't remember ever being at a 40K tournament that allowed special characters.

As a separate argument I'm not so sure you're allowed to buy Lysander Furious Charge since special characters can't be given any new upgrades. The fact that he can take a command squad doesn't change the fact he can't be given any new weapons or wargear or veteran skills

As for special characters, historically I agree. Except with the recent lack of the caveat of  "with opponents permission" since necrons, tourneys have increasingly been known to drop the restriction concerning special characters. Especially the larger tourneys.

As for the issue of Lysander being able to utilize a vet skill, I'll make a post in YMDC so as not to derail this thread any further than it already has, in the link below.

www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/15/postid/148725/view/topic/Default.aspx