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In a move that is probably familiar to gamers, eBay has announced it's new fee schedule for 2008:
http://pages.ebay.com/sell/update08/overview/index.html

In it, they proudly announce that they have lowered insertion fees. Now, these have dropped 5-40 cents per, while the final value fee goes up for the first $25 from 5.25% to 8.75%. For those who won't do the math at home, while it's 5 cents cheaper to list anything with a value up $25, that $25 item will now have a $2.18 final fee, as opposed to $1.3125.

What does this mean for the gaming community? Well, I'd imagine the "Shipping and handling" charge for all eBay items is going to go up about $1 in a month to cover this increase. Somebody is going to eat it, and it'll end up being the consumer. I'd also imagine we'll see even more "Wishful thinking" style auctions, the ones where somebody throws a Tactical Squad up for $32 with $8 S&H, hoping somebody bites.

Frankly, I'm suprised it took eBay this long to make this change. Hosting items that don't sell can't cost them anything (what with bandwidth getting cheaper all the time), but actually tracking bids, buys, sellers, feedback, etc. actually has a cost.

eBay and their total lack of customer service has always irked me. You're pretty much rolling the dice when you buy things on there, even if the guy has a near perfect rating, you don't always get what you paid for and eBay does nothing about it. I once bought antique car trim on there, guy said it was all in "restorable" condition and was for one year model of car. When it arrived it was for a different year car (it was actually written on the back of the parts what year vehicle it had come off of) and apparently "restoreable" condition meant "rusty pieces of crap with no finish left on them," for the majority of the set, the only pieces pictured were done in high light (so they shined and fuzzed the picture) and were the best of the bunch. I complained to eBay, got nothing. Guy gave me the run around claiming they weren't from him but someone else and that his computer was on the fritz. All BS as it ended up, but he had near perfect reviews, he just did so much business that was "honest enough" that all his bad ones were covered up. I got an e-mail a couple monthes later from someone who was actually pressing charges of fraud and I had to file out a report with the FBI. Never found out how that all finished.

from my experience, never do business with anyone that has any negative feedback at all x.x

selling is *much* safer on ebay; you always ask for the money first and just wait on that

and yeah i can see this stimulating more bait-and-hook auctions where they may or may not get bidders, as it's cheaper now to throw them out again and again. good stuff, mostly ^^

I've given up eBay and PayPal.

Their customer service is appalling whichever side of the deal you are on.

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:from my experience, never do business with anyone that has any negative feedback at all x.x

That's a little extreme.

No matter how good they are, every seller cops negative feedback sooner or later. Quite a lot of negative feedback is left as an alternative to actually communicating with the seller when there's a problem.

It's certainly worth checking feedback before bidding, but rather than just dismissing sellers out of hand because they have negs, it's usually worth a look at what those negs actually say, and how the seller responds to them. A lot of the time, the neg will relate to an issue that's since been resolved, or could easily have been if the buyer had been more communicative.

Yikes, the shipping fees will look like european VAT taxes now.

As for eBay/Paypal, the only way to be sure you get your side of the deal as a buyer is to pay by credit card so you can cancel the charge if needed. As a seller, the only way they take back money from you is to remove them from your paypal funds (I've been fraudulently chargebacked once before) and they'll pretty much make up a bogus reason for the buyer if you have no funds in there. So yeah, you can say their "safety features" pretty much hinges on honesty.

insaniak wrote:

That's a little extreme.

No matter how good they are, every seller cops negative feedback sooner or later. Quite a lot of negative feedback is left as an alternative to actually communicating with the seller when there's a problem.

It's certainly worth checking feedback before bidding, but rather than just dismissing sellers out of hand because they have negs, it's usually worth a look at what those negs actually say, and how the seller responds to them. A lot of the time, the neg will relate to an issue that's since been resolved, or could easily have been if the buyer had been more communicative.

Yup, exactly. I have a negatiev feedback of at least one person, one seller who didnt live up to what they said tand they retaliated with negative feedback after leaving mine.

It happens. Best read the feedback and see whats going on....

Look, prices going up and it isn't GW's fault!

I've had almost all good experiences with eBay though, and the one issue I had, buying an ork battlefortress, only to receive a box with horribly warped parts, and missing pieces, I was able to resolve through paypal's dispute resolution.

Blech. On the upside "Gallery" is now a free feature, which saves me $0.35 (or whatever it cost) that I fronted every auction.

I also noted that buyers can no longer receive negative feedback, or something to that effect. That seems ... wrong to me, but I guess the fact that once they send money everything is "done" on their end is part of that reasoning.

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:Blech. On the upside "Gallery" is now a free feature, which saves me $0.35 (or whatever it cost) that I fronted every auction.

I also noted that buyers can no longer receive negative feedback, or something to that effect. That seems ... wrong to me, but I guess the fact that once they send money everything is "done" on their end is part of that reasoning.

-

Exactly. As long as money is sent in a timely manner.....it is done.

Its to prevent retalitory negative feedback from buyers. I had it done at least once...the seller was seller two blisters of new tyrnat guard...what arrived was one new, one old. He said he'd said a new one...after I sen the old one back, which I did. neevr did...after a month I left negative feedback and he retaliated with noob and other insults and negative feedback.

Its done alot.

I like that change. It's always irritated me that when I pay right away the buyer waits until I give feedback to give me feedback.

Like most things feedback is open to abuse and only works properly between decent, honest people who aren't a-holes.

That is why it is impossible to trade for very long before you get a bad feedback. I got it from someone who lost a Dutch auction, and because they did not understand the eBay rules, they blamed me.

carmachu wrote:

Boss_Salvage wrote:Blech. On the upside "Gallery" is now a free feature, which saves me $0.35 (or whatever it cost) that I fronted every auction.

I also noted that buyers can no longer receive negative feedback, or something to that effect. That seems ... wrong to me, but I guess the fact that once they send money everything is "done" on their end is part of that reasoning.

-

Exactly. As long as money is sent in a timely manner.....it is done.

Its to prevent retalitory negative feedback from buyers. I had it done at least once...the seller was seller two blisters of new tyrnat guard...what arrived was one new, one old. He said he'd said a new one...after I sen the old one back, which I did. neevr did...after a month I left negative feedback and he retaliated with noob and other insults and negative feedback.

Its done alot.

I had no clue it was so common. I bought a lot of 10 oop world eaters, and got 7. The guy offered a refund, but by the time I'd pay to ship them back, I'd end up eating $6 of the $15, and I really needed the models. So I left neutral feedback, saying what I got wasn't what was advertised, was offered a refund, but kept it anyway. The tool responds back with neutral feedback, saying "Quick payment, not satisfied w/ extras I gave.Wanted 2 big a refund." Apparently me not being happy with him made me a bad customer. His screwing up the posting had nothing to do with my disatisfaction....

I had a buyer leave neutral feedback because I didn't communicate personallly. He got his pacakge within 10 days, but apparently he wanted constant updates. With his feedback of (4), I can only assume he was a bit nervous dipping his toes into eBay's murky waters.

That all said, eBay is great at doing what it claims to do: bring buyers and sellers together. It doesn't claim to be able to regulate either party, and it doesn't do much to even pretend. 99% of eBay transactions go off without a hitch, and more problems are errors in communication then actual fraud. Caveat Empor is an old saying, and it's true on eBay.

On interesting factor: for years folks have been telling people to hit the deals on eBay. I don't know how lately you've checked the prices on warhammer stuff on eBay, but the deals are few and far between these days. eBay is a seller's market, pure and simple. A few years back you could buy big lots of stuff for a fraction of retail, part it out, resell the surplus, and keep the good stuff while making a profit (how a I built the core of my empire army). These days, I think that trick is far more common. Rather than lots going for to sum of the few big pieces, there are enough vets out there pricing every model and bidding up to the actual market value. Im not saying there aren't deals to be had, just don't expect to find the stuff for half off anymore like is frequently claimed.

On the same topic Bartertown tends to have two types of traders (drawing horribly unfair stereotypes, far too broadly): those who are essentially running little stores, with prices on everything and no dealing allowed, and those with achingly precious trade demands for their equally obsure trading stock. If you have NIB Tau, and want 1500 Vampire, The Eternal Struggle cards, you might be in luck, but the gems are hard to find there as well.

Feedback has always been an issue to me. As a Seller, I leave -ve feedback for non paying bidders. But the bidder who didn't pay, is still allowed to leave me -ve feedback, for an aution he won, but never paid for. How is that fair? Especially when they leave remarks like 'Probably stolen goods so I didn't pay'. which was complete bollocks.

I never leave feedback for a buyer, until they have left it for me. This is an acknowedgement that they have recieved the goods in good order, as the auction described, and they are happy with it.

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:selling is *much* safer on ebay; you always ask for the money first and just wait on that

I used to think this, but have since seen that this isn't scam-proof. Now, I think this is only true if you're dealing in irrevocable cash equivalents such as Postal Money Orders or wire services like Western Union. Paypal, credit cards, and checks can *all* be reversed, and the scammers know this. Even bank transfers (which used to be irrevocable) can be reversed.

The scammers will "buy" something, then reverse payment sometime after the item is received. God help you if you used Paypal, because eBay defers to Paypal "resolution" in all cases. And Paypal isn't a bank, so you have no more protection than if you asked "Guido" to hold it for you. If you've left eBay Feedback, you can't even give them a Negative afterwards.

I used eBay / paypal before the scammers took over. Now, I use Bartertown. Bartertown is generally better, but the market is a lot tighter now. I'm very thankful that I reshuffled my stuff a couple years ago, rather than starting today.

Also, for Feedback, now, I only provide Feedback in response, *after* the deal is concluded by both parties, I NEVER give positive feedback first. This prevents someone from changing his mind, or reneging on a promise to give Feedback.

ebay used to be alot more fun 8 years ago, now when i want to sell stuff its either on here, on warseer or (mostly) on bartertown, ebay has lost its flare to me. not counting the the random army i pick up here and there, and the occasional odd or end, i tend to leave ebay alone now a days.

For eBay/Paypal to increase fees (however they try to disguise it) is a slight surprise, considering that Google is coming to the table already planning to undercut Paypal's pricing structure for transactions. Of course it may be because they expect/fear to lose some transaction profit they'd normally see thru Paypal, due to Google possibly taking market share away.

But then again, Google Checkout is still quite basic and doesn't look ready to compete, based on the features I'm seeing (I'm using it as a ticket sales method for a Super Bowl party at present)

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I used to think this, but have since seen that this isn't scam-proof. Now, I think this is only true if you're dealing in irrevocable cash equivalents such as Postal Money Orders or wire services like Western Union. Paypal, credit cards, and checks can *all* be reversed, and the scammers know this. Even bank transfers (which used to be irrevocable) can be reversed.

The scammers will "buy" something, then reverse payment sometime after the item is received. God help you if you used Paypal, because eBay defers to Paypal "resolution" in all cases. And Paypal isn't a bank, so you have no more protection than if you asked "Guido" to hold it for you. If you've left eBay Feedback, you can't even give them a Negative afterwards.

I've sold hundreds of things on Ebay and never had this happen once. It might even be possible to reverse payment on paypal (I didn't know this was possible?) but I've never encountered it. I doubt very much it's the norm and no more frequent then the bad trader messages you see on various trade forums.

Ebay/Paypals is relatively risk free provided:

As a seller, you make seller type back "I don't want insurance" when offered if they don't. Offer it always.
You save your track/confirm.

As a buyer, you demand insurance.
You save your email/receipt of payment.


I've been involved in a handful of disputes. Within 2 days of me giving the dispute center the tracking number showing shipment, their dispute was overturned. If you don't save your tracking numbers, yes I imagine you could possibly lose money. I treat everyone like they're a criminal though .


All that said their rates are atrocious. However, with no real competition it's what the market will bear.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Feedback has always been an issue to me. As a Seller, I leave -ve feedback for non paying bidders. But the bidder who didn't pay, is still allowed to leave me -ve feedback, for an aution he won, but never paid for.

The way to avoid that is to make sure you lodge an Unpaid Item Dispute for all unpaid items. That way, not only do you get your listing fees back, but the 'buyer' can't leave feedback if they don't respond to the dispute... and the vast majority of non-payers don't bother.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I've been involved in a handful of disputes. Within 2 days of me giving the dispute center the tracking number showing shipment, their dispute was overturned. If you don't save your tracking numbers, yes I imagine you could possibly lose money.

Even without tracking numbers (some of us come from countries with hideously primitive postal systems, where tracking on certain services is either far too expensive or just nonexistant) Paypal covers sellers for a certain number of Chargebacks a year (2 or 3 I think, off the top of my head). I've had exactly one chargeback filed against me in my time on eBay, and once I replied to the dispute stating a postal date and method of post, Paypal covered the refund. Didn't cost me a cent.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I've sold hundreds of things on Ebay and never had this happen once.

Knock on wood, then.

It might even be possible to reverse payment on paypal

It is not possible to reverse a payment through paypal. But it is trivially easy to have your credit card company or bank reverse the charge. When that happens, paypal will automatically reverse the payment on the seller.

I doubt very much it's the norm and no more frequent then the bad trader messages you see on various trade forums.

Until it happens to you, it doesn't matter.

Well, bad stuff happens. Cars crash, stuff is stolen, people are stampeded, and cattle is raped. I'm not trying to make light of anyone's misfortunes, but nothing is safe.

For me, and for a lot of people, eBay is safe enough to use reliably, but I can see why some people don't like it.

I've had a few rather embarassing ebay feedbacks in my time.
So I sold my second army. They were horrendously painted Eldar, but I said they were well-painted, because I honestly thought that. Once the buyer got them he left a negative feedback saying that he had been expecting a much better paintjob. I was so embarassed. It was probably the main thing that caused me to quit 40k the first time.

I'll throw in my 2 cents on the crummy customer service side of things. I used to have a good paypal account/ebay user account. One day my account got hacked on the paypal side of things. Someone used my paypal account to pay for a sony vaio laptop in the UK. I didn't find out about it till I went to the atm to withdraw some cash from the bank account I had been using for my paypal. I found out I was missing alot of money and immediatly went to my bank to stop payment on the paypal purchase and they did thank god.

Unfortunatly Paypal, even though I called them and explained the situation still proceded to pay out the money for the fraudulant purchase and sent me several emails asking that I put funds into my paypal account to bring it's balance back to atleast zero. They did this knowing full well the situation that I had been in and eventually locked my paypal account and the bank account that I have registered to it is not able to be linked to any other account. To sum it up, they don't care about the situation or circumstances, they want their money and that's all they want.

I frequently find one person is selling an item for £10 free postage, the next person the same item for £4 with £6 postage. And why not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Knock on wood, then.

Until it happens to you, it doesn't matter.

Well, I read about people losing their lives in automobile accidents daily yet I bravely insert the key in my Jeep and drive to work. Life is about odds, odds that show millions of people whom use Ebay with no issues. Other than monetary disagreements that is.

Regardless, I'm certainly no Ebay employee so won't advertise on their behest. Yes, I certainly have issue with their listing fees (And final value fees). However, I do think it's rather silly sharing anecdotal mishaps and declaring their service unsafe. If that was truly the case, one would assume their customer base would be much smaller than it is.

If their customer base were as good as it was before, they wouldn't be making changes today.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If their customer base were as good as it was before, they wouldn't be making changes today.

*Shrug*, perhaps they've finally listened to the multitudes of sellers compaining of fees (Yet these changes look rather harsh for sellers) or perhaps it's part of their business strategy. Regardless, as I've stated before I certainly do have issue with their pricing (Yet that has nothing to do with relative safety in my online auctions). One perhaps could even bring an argument of monopoly with Paypal/Ebay growth being such a dominant force in online auctions (I mean, whom can really compete?).

Perhaps one day we'll all be devoted Craigs List Users while marketing our wares right next to the prostitutes and hitmen .

JohnHwangDD wrote:If their customer base were as good as it was before, they wouldn't be making changes today.

Losing customers isn't the only reason for making changes to the way you do business.

As GW fans, it would seem to be the only one.

I have very rarely ever had problems with ebay. I've always asked questions beforehand if I had them. I have 0 negative feedback (471 positive) but I have come close from idiots. They have a new policy where the seller can't screw the buyer with negative feedback now as part of retaliation. That's good.

But yes, the consumer will eat the higher final costs.