Are Khorne Berzerkers worth it?

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**Khairnus**

Hey guys,
I recently have put together an 800pt army out of the battleforce box. Upon creating my army list, I have run across the predicament of whether or not to keep the zerkers, or toss them out and replace them with a more point efficient unit? I was thinkin one of my possibilities is to replace them with a lot of lesser demons or maybe even chosen.. what do yall think?

**AtraAngelis**

A 21 point WS 5 unit.. that on the charge has S5 and 4 attacks witha +3 armor save... and fearless??... yea.... yea they are worth it.

AND!.. no longer pop out of thier rhino as soon as one of em gets agro!!! yea ..really worth it!

**snorkle**

Khorne is not very good. Trade them for 1000sons if you have a shooty army.
Nevermind my low initiative comment. I misread the entry in the codex. Nevertheless they're still not worth it, seeing as they move 6" a turn and can't fleet. Put them in a rhino if you want and watch them get entangled. Chances are they won't make it across the table unless you have some scary stuff like a DP and some obliterators.

**AtraAngelis**

TO low??? on the charge they get a Furious charge gives you +1 str +1 init!... a 5 init to slow???

**snorkle**

Yeah sorry I misread the army list entry.

**Tacobake**

They're perfectly acceptable and reasonable close combat troops, Fearless is what really tips the scales to B+ unit from maybe a B- since they're so slow.

It's true that they're not that great, and you might have more fun with Chosen, demons or even normal bolter weilding CSM.

I was thinking of taking 20 with a Khorne Lord on a Jugger and basing the rest of my army around it.

**Khairnus**

Thanks yall, after alot of thinking, i have decided to remove them and add 5 more csm into the mix along with a rhino.. i appriciate all the help

**snorkle**

You shouldn't have any trouble just converting the berserkers to normal csm if you don't want to spend more money on new models when you already have models that will work fine.

**gdurant**

Advise for 4th ed

If you really want to use beserkers then you can try and use tricks like lashing to get them into combat. Rhinos are an option but entanglement makes this a tricky proposition.

5th ed

Between the ability to run and the fact that entanglement is gone a rhino rush is viable again.

We won't see 5th ed for another couple of months so if you want to wait to add them you won't miss anything.

**zaqzaq**

Zerks will be much better in 5e as they suffer less from the powerfist nerf and they will be able to bring all their attacks to bear. Their pts cost vs durability will be less of an issue if they are screened. With entanglement gone they do become more viable for rhino rushing. I still prefer Plagues tho.

**Death By Monkeys**

Currently, one of the armies with the best record at my FLGS is a double-lash/berzerker army. And they'll wind up being even better in 5th.

**Wehrkind**

Are Landraiders a good option for Berserkers? 10 seems like a reasonable number when they are rocking 4 attacks each, and I would think LR would help them get to assault a little more effectively. Plus in 5e LRs seem to be nigh unstoppable.

Not that I play Chaos, but a friend of mine was wondering how to run his Beserkers...

**Lady_Canoness**

Land Raiders are actually really, really good for Berzerkers - though Terminators are uaually the better choice. I've used the LR for them twice before, and each time it leads to them going on a rampage through the enemy lines.
Use the 12" move to break through the front-line of the enemy, and assault out of it 6" with the KBs into the support units. A recipe for slaughter!

**Schepp himself**

Why is the Land Raider nigh unstoppable in 5th edition and not before that? Sure, the damage tables change and smoke, too, but heck lascannons and lances still can smoke your 250 point wonder in no time...

A bit off-topic, but that one bugs me pretty much.

Greets
Schepp himself

**Terminizzle**

Because 1 Lascannon shot = 2/3 to hit x 1/6 to penetrate x 1/3 to destroy = 2/54, so 27 non- Tank Hunter Lascannon shots on average will be required to destroy a Land Raider.

Edit: IMO, Berserkers are a completely viable unit choice.

**Stelek**

Hilarious.

You don't need to kill a land raider to stop a land raider.

Run better math, bud.

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:Hilarious.

You don't need to kill a land raider to stop a land raider.

Run better math, bud.

Look smartass, I clearly wrote "to DESTROY a Land Raider". Why don't you try contributing something for once for feth's sake?

To appease the friggin jackass-

2/3 to hit x 1/6 to glance x 1/6 to Immobilise (1/52)+
2/3 to hit x 1/6 to penetrate x 1/2 to Immobilise or destroy (1/18)= .075 or 7.5% chance that a Lascannon shot will immobilise or destroy the Land Raider, slightly more than the 1/27 (3.7%) chance the shot will destroy it (double actually, but still extremely small).

DURR! Guess what? It's still really unlikely.

It's absolutely unbelievable that you waste everyone's time by sticking around here.

**Stelek**

Don't post insults when you're corrected.

An immobilized land raider is destroyed for purposes of delivering troops.

That was the point. The contribution.

Telling everyone the Land Raider is invulnerable in 5th edition is incorrect, it isn't.

**whitedragon**

So let me get this straight...

7% vindicates you and makes Terminizzle wrong?

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:Don't post insults when you're corrected.

Right. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206978.page#232386

Stelek wrote:
An immobilized land raider is destroyed for purposes of delivering troops.

That was the point. The contribution.

Telling everyone the Land Raider is invulnerable in 5th edition is incorrect, it isn't.

I would say maybe try working out the math yourself next time, but I legitimately wonder if you understand multiplication based on your attitude towards math in general as far as this mathematically based (and solvable) game goes.

**Stelek**

I actually play the game.

Let's count the number of times I've played with my Eldar or against Eldar. 15 is the approximate number.

Number of games where 1-3 Falcons/Prisms were shot down?

15.

Yet, they're invulnerable, right?

Far more survivable than a Land Raider is under 5th edition, but do I expect this to get through to you?

No, you have your math and despite the fact the statistical probabilities have GOT to have a high end and a low end, you just want to go with the part of the bell curve where every Land Raider is unkillable.

They also have angels singing and flowers blooming wherever they go too, right?

Play some 5th edition. Land Raiders can walk out in the open if they want to. I encourage it. The days of 1 unit running through an army are over, and have been for a long time. Don't try and fool the initiated into believing for one minute they're back, because they aren't.

===================================

I distinctly remember not calling you a jackass.
I distinctly remember not telling you to get lost.
I distinctly remember making an effort to turn your comment into something useful.
I didn't insult the poster in the link you posted, I got tired of reading the endless garbage and gave up. Some people you can't argue with, they're irrational. Hopefully you won't fall into that category, but if you respond with more tripe I'll let you "win" this argument.

**thehod**

Stelek does have a point. Mathhammer means nothing once the models hit the table. Sure landraiders are tougher in 5th edition but nothing in this game is unstoppable.

How many times have we seen stuff that should have happened, not happen?

**Schepp himself**

Ok...seen the numbers.
And where is that different to the 4th edition survivability?

2/3(hit)*1/6(glance)*1/3(immo or destroyed) = 2/54
2/3(hit)*1/6(penetrate)*2/3(immo or destroyed) = 4/54

s0 4/54+2/54=6/54 or 1/9

it's roughly 11%.

Am I right? Doesn't seem that much more protected. Maybe if you consider cover saves is, but that is a i much for mathhammer...

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. don't get me wrong, I'd welcomed it!

**Moz**

thehod wrote:Stelek does have a point. Mathhammer means nothing once the models hit the table. Sure landraiders are tougher in 5th edition but nothing in this game is unstoppable.

How many times have we seen stuff that should have happened, not happen?

About as often as it shouldn't have happened.

Just because you're pushing toys around and throwing dice, doesn't mean you can throw out the odds.

Schepp himself wrote:Ok...seen the numbers.
And where is that different to the 4th edition survivability?

Well speaking for survivability, cover is really the big one. A 50% chance that a shot does nothing at all before even hitting the tables we're discussing goes a long way.

For viability, the biggest change looks to be the removal of auto-entanglement. Anything but a turn 1 destruction is going to be an overall success for the transport.

**Stelek**

You generally can't hide the raider (to get a cover save) on turn 1 and still get out to the middle of the battlefield on turn 1.

Either you stick your nose out, or you don't.

If you're not in cover, you are vulnerable to a first turn immobilize/destroy result. Which means you deploy in your deployment zone and take hits.

You need to move twice with the Land Raider.

Alot of the math means nothing without looking at army lists. Some armies will clean your clock without batting an eyebrow. Others will have to sweat it to crack a land raider.

It really depends entirely on what else is in your army, and what you are facing yourself.

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:I actually play the game.

Let's count the number of times I've played with my Eldar or against Eldar. 15 is the approximate number.

Number of games where 1-3 Falcons/Prisms were shot down?

15.

Yet, they're invulnerable, right?

Far more survivable than a Land Raider is under 5th edition, but do I expect this to get through to you?

No, you have your math and despite the fact the statistical probabilities have GOT to have a high end and a low end, you just want to go with the part of the bell curve where every Land Raider is unkillable.

They also have angels singing and flowers blooming wherever they go too, right?

Play some 5th edition. Land Raiders can walk out in the open if they want to. I encourage it. The days of 1 unit running through an army are over, and have been for a long time. Don't try and fool the initiated into believing for one minute they're back, because they aren't.

WHAT?!

What on earth do a Falcon and a statistically meaningless sample of games you have played have to do with ANYTHING?

There's no bell curve involved here; there is no normal distribution. There are the results of rolls of 6 sided dice. There is no "high end and low end." There is an AVERAGE. Upon cursory examination of the extremely basic math I laid out, it should be very obvious that the number I present as a final "chance" of something happening is the average. That's the number you use to figure these things out, the average. Sure it's possible that you take 1 Lascannon shot at my Land Raider and destroy it. It's also possible that you take 1000 shots at it and don't destroy it. That's why you compare things by averages.

Stelek wrote:Some people you can't argue with, they're irrational.

Too true, Stelek. Too true.

**Terminizzle**

thehod wrote:Stelek does have a point. Mathhammer means nothing once the models hit the table. Sure landraiders are tougher in 5th edition but nothing in this game is unstoppable.

How many times have we seen stuff that should have happened, not happen?

You seem confused. If you don't value the concept of an average, what are you discussing on this forum? How could you possibly say something is better than something else without an average? I never said Land Raiders were unstoppable in 5th, I never even said they were good. I said it takes about 14 Lascannon shots to kill or immobilize one (ON AVERAGE) because each one has a 7.5% chance of killing or immobilizing it.

How many times have we seen stuff that should have happened not happen? Well, some. A non zero amount. How many times have we seen what should have happened happen? Many, many more times.

**Nurglitch**

The mean average is what should happen?

**Terminizzle**

Nurglitch wrote:The mean average is what should happen?

Yes?

If I shoot 14 Lascannons at a Land Raider, it should (i.e. will likely) be destroyed.

If I shoot 2, it should (i.e. will likely) survive.

**Nurglitch**

Unless the dice you roll will all be 6 results, then the likelihood of the Land Raider surviving is nil. I mean, what's the margin of error of the mean average in any batch of dice rolls under one thousand? Or more pertinently in a batch of the size typically used in a game of 40k (a few hundred)?