Are Khorne Berzerkers worth it?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Schepp himself**

Ok, I think we have talked about averages enough. How much is a quad of berserkers anyway? Combines with Land Raider?

Ok, 40 attacks sounds nice, but how many come through? And is the damage output above average(oh noes, again the word!) or what you would expect from such an expensive unit.

Greets
Schepp himself

**Moz**

Don't get dragged into a position based on the semantics of 'Should'. The discussion is on Berserkers viability, which tangented to transport viability - particularly the landraider. Landraider viability looks to be increasing in the near future. By how much exactly? Irrelevant. It is simply increasing. Done.

**Terminizzle**

Nurglitch wrote:Unless the dice you roll will all be 6 results, then the likelihood of the Land Raider surviving is nil. I mean, what's the certitude of the mean average in any batch of dice rolls under one thousand?

The bolded statement doesn't make sense.

What is the certitude of the mean for a batch of dice rolls over 1000? Greater, but still not 1. So what?

There won't be any game where a thousand Lascannon shots are fired at a Land Raider, but there will be a thousand games where a Lascannon is fired at a Land Raider. What other way do you propose we measure what is the most likely result?

If you aren't comparing the averages, what will you compare? What a handful of anecdotal "test games" has shown to happen? Of course not. The mean is the only value that matters because it's the only way you can compare these data.

The average is the average regardless of sample size. If you roll 2D6 an arbitrarily large number of times, the average result is a 7. If you roll those 2D6 just once, 7 is still the most likely result. If you roll 2D6 5 times and score a 12 5 times, you wouldn't then try to argue that 12 is the average or that you will always roll a 12.

The only difference with regards to 40k is an example of this form:

2 Shooting attacks fired with BS 5, S 6 at a target with T6, 4 Wounds, no save for simplicity of the example
2 x 5/6 x 1/2 = 5/6 wounds average

5 shooting attacks fired with BS 2, S 6 at a target with T6, 4 Wounds, still no save
5 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 5/6 wounds average

But the 5 shooting sttacks with BS 2 have the possibility to kill the target because there are 5 of them, and the target has 4 wounds. Still, on average they do the same damage.

So the 5 BS 2 shooting attacks are better, but you can't quantify that without taking the average and then accounting for other special circumstances. There's just no other logical way to do it in this game.

Edit:

Yes, sorry to go so far off topic.

It definitely seems like an army built around 2 Lash Princes with a few squads of Berserkers and some Land Raiders could be viable. Combined with the LR's, one squad of 3 Obliterators would probably comprise an adequate fire-base. Let's start putting together a concept list.

**whitedragon**

Schepp himself wrote:Ok, I think we have talked about averages enough. How much is a quad of berserkers anyway? Combines with Land Raider?

Ok, 40 attacks sounds nice, but how many come through? And is the damage output above average(oh noes, again the word!) or what you would expect from such an expensive unit.

Greets
Schepp himself

Well, I could run some numbers for you Schepp to help you decide, but according to popular opinion, math doesn't make any difference in 40k, so why bother. So instead, I'll recount a completely unverifiable, anecdotal piece of evidence to leverage my position.

One time, I had 8 Berzerkers charge some blood claws, and all the blood claws were killed. Another time, a squad of Grey Knight Terminators charged my berzerkers in cover, and my Berzerkers killed them all. Another time, my berzerkers got shot before they could reach the enemy, and another time they won me 100 bucks because a guy didn't believe I painted them myself, and he bet against me.

And another classic - If they work for you, go ahead and use them.

See how helpful that was?

**Terminizzle**

whitedragon wrote:

Well, I could run some numbers for you Schepp to help you decide, but according to popular opinion, math doesn't make any difference in 40k, so why bother. So instead, I'll recount a completely unverifiable, anecdotal piece of evidence to leverage my position.

One time, I had 8 Berzerkers charge some blood claws, and all the blood claws were killed. Another time, a squad of Grey Knight Terminators charged my berzerkers in cover, and my Berzerkers killed them all. Another time, my berzerkers got shot before they could reach the enemy, and another time they won me 100 bucks because a guy didn't believe I painted them myself, and he bet against me.

And another classic - If they work for you, go ahead and use them.

See how helpful that was?

you win the thread

So here's a potential starting point for the list:

HQ: Demon Prince; Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission- 155
HQ: Demon Prince; Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission- 155
Troops: 10 Khorne Berserkers- 210
Troops: 10 Khorne Berserkers- 210
Heavy Support: 3 Obliterators- 225
Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider- 220
Heavy Support: Chaos Land Raider- 220
1,395

From here, we can add some Rhino squads and be assured that they'll be fairly safe. Chosen and Plague Marines are what sticks out to me here. Raptors could be a good choice too.

Is it agreed upon at least that the list needs to be built around the Berserkers for them to be good?

**Fatman**

Berserkers in a Land Raider will be solid with or without Lash. AV14 and a 21" charge range doesn't really need the Lash for effectiveness. The downside to the Raider rush is you're driving into range of the worst thing for AV14 in 5th edition, meltas.

**Nurglitch**

Terminizzle: It makes plenty of sense. If you think the dice are going to yield results that match the mean average and they aren't then relying on that mean average to calculate the effectiveness of a weapon is foolish. Hence if the dice are going to come up boxcars then throwing your Land Raider out there imagining that it is somehow protected by the unlikelihood of a particular event occurring is unwise.

Incidentally I replaced "certitude" with "margin of error". I think the margin of error is significant where we are using statistically insignificant amounts of dice rolling.

As for Khorne Berzerkers I'd recommend against combining them with a Daemon Prince or Sorceror of Slannesh for aesthetic reasons. Firstly these sorts don't get along in the fluff, although one could make a case that the HQ using the Troops as cannon fodder in the hopes that they don't survive. Secondly the Lash of Submission is pretty easily shut-down by Space Marine, Eldar, and Tyranid players. And off-hand I'm just going to go out on a limb and suppose you don't want to play a cookie-cutter Intarwebz army.

A force of Berzerkers in Land Raiders sounds pretty cool to me though. Add in a Chaos Lord with a Bloodfeeder (yeah, it's risky, live a little) and roll them up the middle for the frontal assaults.

**Fatman**

Land Raiders + Berserkers + Demon Bomb combined with a Vindicator or possibly a Demon Prince will make a nice 5th Edition army, IMO.

**Terminizzle**

Nurglitch wrote:Terminizzle: It makes plenty of sense. If you think the dice are going to yield results that match the mean average and they aren't then relying on that mean average to calculate the effectiveness of a weapon is foolish. Hence if the dice are going to come up boxcars then throwing your Land Raider out there imagining that it is somehow protected by the unlikelihood of a particular event occurring is unwise.

Incidentally I replaced "certitude" with "margin of error". I think the margin of error is significant where we are using statistically insignificant amounts of dice rolling.

Of course. This is all very obvious, and it brings me back to the question I asked: what values will you use to compare 2 units if not these averages? There's nothing else you can use. Yes, there will be noticeable variance. Here's another example:

If you've ever played poker, this should hopefully make this whole discussion crystal clear:

AK suited will win against 88 approximately 47.5% of the time. This qualifies you to say all of the following:

88 should win if the hand is played out once. However, there will obviously be enormous variance here.
88 should win 525 times if the hand is played out 1000 times. It won't, but it will probably win about 515-540 times.
88 should win 5250 times if the hand is played out 10,000 times. It won't, but it will probably win about 5240-5260 times.

So the variance when you play the hand out once is enormous. Even if you play it 10 or 100 times. Still, this average outcome of the hand is the only means it makes sense to qualify which is the better hand.

Sorry to stray off topic yet again, but I think this discussion is important.

**Schepp himself**

Thanks for putting this up whitedragon and terminizzle for sigging it, it's actually more than I asked for!

Greets
Schepp himself

**Lady_Canoness**

Here's a question: Why the HELL do we care!?!?!

Land Raiders are good. That is all we need to know. This thread is about Berzerkers, not about who want to bash who over the head with or without math-hammer. No one is gonna get anywhere in this argument, so why don't you all just drop it!?

**Stelek**

Land Raiders got improved.

They are still not "good".

Is that reason enough?

I find the army model suggested unwise at best. I'd enjoy playing it, so many flaws to take advantage of.

**Death By Monkeys**

Yeah, I'm with Stelek on this one. You're better off buying more troops with your points than sinking them into the Land Raiders. Either more Berserkers (2 units of 10 doesn't necessarily make a killy army) or get yourself a couple big units of Raptors for attacking the flanks.

**Terminizzle**

Death By Monkeys wrote:Yeah, I'm with Stelek on this one. You're better off buying more troops with your points than sinking them into the Land Raiders. Either more Berserkers (2 units of 10 doesn't necessarily make a killy army) or get yourself a couple big units of Raptors for attacking the flanks.

Yeah, at 1 pt less each than a Berserker, the army would probably just be much better with a bunch of Raptors.

Of course the army list isn't competitive right now. It's:
1. not complete
2. based around something not considered tournament viable

Thanks though Stelek for offering up all those alternatives or ideas of your own.

**Fatman**

Even with the run special ability Berserkers still have the fundamental problem of not being able to charge from beyond 12". So either you will be charged or Rapid Fired before you charge. Either way you Berserkers aren't going to come out on top against a lot of opponents. The only ways to get them the charge are Lash, Land Raiders, or parked Rhinos very near an enemy. IMO, Lash is nowhere near reliable. There are many popular armies that just completely trump it either by negating it, being mechanized, or having the ability to quickly depose of a Demon Prince. Rhinos may be viable as a screen or a transport, but you have to park really close to make that work. Land raiders are a much more reliable means of getting a long charge range on Berserkers. They are also flexible, against Orks you could sit and shoot for a couple of rounds before counter-charging.

I'm not proposing this as a whole list, but two units in Land Raiders only costs you 856 points for a fair amount of HtH and AT flexibility. I think Demons compliment this nicely with cheap scoring units that don't give up a lot of KP.

**Stelek**

There's the Chaos Army Template thread. Feel free to play the game, and post your own. Saying 'land raiders are ze good' is not exactly the effort I'd expect from such a thread, but whatever.

You can see all of my ideas for Chaos within.

You'll note I don't think much of Zerkers or Lash or Land Raiders.

Weaksauce units all around.

**whitedragon**

To Schepp and everyone else:

Happy to help! And thanks for sigging me Terminizzle. I'll just add by saying, the better you paint them, the better they will do. Berzerkers really shine with a grade A paintjob.

This one time I played a game where the paint actually caused the other guys figs to jump back into his case! True Story!

**Death By Monkeys**

Terminizzle wrote:Yeah, at 1 pt less each than a Berserker, the army would probably just be much better with a bunch of Raptors.

I can't take any credit for the idea of the Raptors - I got that from Stelek's Chaos Army Template.

**Da Boss**

A friend recently got back into 40K and bought a chaos army with a lot of berserkers. I hope he has fun playing it, but I think it's going to be frustrating for him without a land raider. He also bought a dreadnaught. Bless his cotton socks for going with the fluff and models he liked, but I'm going to have to intentionally play him with softer lists to make sure he has fun and doesn't quit. After I get him eased into playing regularly, I'll crank up the learning curve.

**Leenus**

Stalek... What is your idea of a "good" list for 4th and 5th edition, respectively. Don't point me to the other thread, just tell me your optimal list (or better yet post each in the army list forum) so we can properly evaluate you're "perfect" lists.

**zaqzaq**

Hmm with running and models getting their full attacks in CC maybe something silly like 20-man squads of CSM with Icons might work. 1 KP after all! Pity there's no Icon of Speed. Will have to go for the Icon of Tzeentch then.

**Lorek**

Let's keep it civil, folks. We're about two snide posts away from warnings being handed out (again).

**H.B.M.C.**

[posts snide post #1]

BYE

**H.B.M.C.**

[post snide post #2]

BYE

**H.B.M.C.**

Ok Iorek - go!

BYE

**40kenthusiast**

Someone mentioned the lash earlier, and it got buried in the discussion, but I'd say it needs to be considered carefully when you consider berserkers.

Sorcerers lurking somewhere in an army with Berserkers/Possessed/Melee Terminators essentially adds to everyone's charge range, to a ridiculous extent if you've got double lashers.

If you go with the Land Raider it becomes a practically guaranteed first turn charge. Land Raider moves up and let's out zerkers, Sorcerers walk forward and lash twice. Zerkers charge.

The Chaos Codex has a lot of melee only guys who are slow, which is normally an auto-lose, but with 2 lash sorcerers lashing its viability goes way up vs. gunlines, although the problem with mech remains.

**DarthDiggler**

I like Berzerkers and I think they can be useful. Yes they have one more attack than a normal CSM, but it is the weapon skill 5 that puts them above raptors. Hitting on 3's against MEQ's and Orks makes them worth the points. Delivering them into the enemy lines is the hard part. You could saturate the field with Berzerkers or shield them with empty rhinos. The more terrain the better. Lash is another way to deliver the enemy to you.

I think they are really top notch against Orks though. They can cleave there way through a greater numer of greenskins each turn. This is where hitting on 3's really let's them shine.

**Stelek**

The problem with lash is it can be stopped.

By every army out there.

Until you can lash people out of vehicles or out of line of sight, it'll only work when the other player allows it to.

You do realize lash can be used against you, right?

**Democratus**

Fortunately, in 5th edition Area Terrain will no longer block LOS. So the Lash may become even easier to use.

**Lemartes**

Problem with zerkers IMO is to be truly effective they need to make it into combat. In order to do this they need a dedicated transport and thier current transport options are not very reliable. Raptors with thier packs at least are not reliant on something else to deliver them to combat. The other argument is to take large squads of them to ensure combat. Points wise it's cheaper and makes more sense to take basic marines then because you have more meat shields to take incoming fire and Zerkers die just the same as chaos marines. Sure you lose fearlessness but a Large mob at LD 10 is almost as good. The other benefit with basic chaos marines is you have the bolter option with CC weapons making them a little more flexible tactically.