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Recently has been published this book, in wich appear rules for new units, vehicles, etc. I would like to know if they can be used in warhammer 40k normal games or tournaments, I mean ignoring rules for apocalypse. I ask you this because in my country is not easy to get books from forge world, unless you order it from internet for a very expensive price, and before I spend my money in something useless I prefer to resolve my doubt . I supose this question has been repeated a thousand times, but I'm new in the forum. Thank you all.

Imperial Armour Apocalypse only has Apocalypse Datasheets, no regular 40K rules. If you want regular 40K rules, get the other IA books.

Order your FW books directly from FW. Unless you can find a deal on ebay, that's pretty much the lowest price.

The IA:apocalypse book doesn't have new units. It's giving rules for stuff FW has already put out. Totally not useable in regular 40k, in the same way that the other IA books aren't useable. If you group is ok with one, they will be ok with the other. Or not.

Totally not useable in regular 40k, in the same way that the other IA books aren't useable.

Completely wrong. FW books are 100% legal, and require no permission from your opponent. They even say as much in the forewords to those books.

Tournament organisers can, of course, dissalow certain items or even entire books, but a tournament organiser could ban Space Marines if he wanted, so that's not really saying much.

As far as IA Apoc goes for regular games, well obviously the formations are out. As for the single units with their updated rules, not sure. I've only read through the book once and the impression that I got was that Warrick didn't read it over before hitting 'print' on his PC. There are so, so many mistakes in there.

BYE

FW books are 100% legal, and require no permission from your opponent

Never found that to be true, and not what comes from GW. Certainly not what gets played in my area. In someone's garage, I'm sure you can browbeat a buddy into letting you use forgeword, but it doesn't fly when you show up in any shop.

I'd certainly never encourage anyone to spend hundreds of dollars from FW, by telling them it's 100% legal. Half the stuff doesn't fit into any force org chart if you aren't using apocalypse, or uses rules that aren't in the 40k HC.

Feel free to argue it for 20 pages, it still won't make it 100% legal.

mithandril wrote: Recently has been published this book, in wich appear rules for new units, vehicles, etc. I would like to know if they can be used in warhammer 40k normal games or tournaments, I mean ignoring rules for apocalypse.

Not really. Some of the units may be relatively balanced for regular 40K games, but some are too powerful. Imperial Armour Apocalypse is certainly not officially sanctioned for use in any major 40K tournament that I know of.

mikhaila wrote:Feel free to argue it for 20 pages.

Actually, don't. At least, not in this thread please.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Completely wrong. FW books are 100% legal, and require no permission from your opponent. They even say as much in the forewords to those books.

Really? Take a look in the foreword to Imperial Armour Apocalypse where it says otherwise.

How 'bout you stop wasting my time Ghaz and post it, as I don't own it. I only own all the other IA Books, where the cloest they come to saying 'opponent's permission required' is the note about super-heavies, and how you should probably let your opponent know about it beforehand so that they can prepare.

BYE

mikhaila wrote:FW books are 100% legal, and require no permission from your opponent

Never found that to be true, and not what comes from GW. Certainly not what gets played in my area. In someone's garage, I'm sure you can browbeat a buddy into letting you use forgeword, but it doesn't fly when you show up in any shop.

I'd certainly never encourage anyone to spend hundreds of dollars from FW, by telling them it's 100% legal. Half the stuff doesn't fit into any force org chart if you aren't using apocalypse, or uses rules that aren't in the 40k HC.

Feel free to argue it for 20 pages, it still won't make it 100% legal.

except at at least one GW store here in Maryland where they allow a kid to field Fortress of Arrogance because "he spent the money to buy a Baneblade and them converted it to FoA, so he can use it"

even in 1750 pt games...

but i'm sure you will summarily ignore that because it doesn't validate your tightly clutched opinion.

Blackheart66, how does that in any way rebut mikhaila's post? "My GW store allows it" doesn't equate to "100% legal." What it equates to is "you may get to use it if you're lucky like me/this kid--or you may not."

Extracted from the long foreword in Imperial Armour Apocalypse:

As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will... The only thing that matters is that both players know this before they start, and both players agree that's the way they want to play the game...

It's best to know what the books say before you state that they say something else.

Ok, then that applies to IA: Apoc, not to anythign else.

IA's 1-5 remain completely legal and require no permission (with the usual note about tournament organisers and what they can allow/can choose not to allow).

BYE

Not even close. The part I laugh about is "require no permission". If no one feels like playing you when bring a warhound to a 1500 point game, what are you going to do, force them at gunpoint? FW stuff is permission only in many stores, many clubs. I don't know of anywhere stores within a days drive from me that play FW as 'no permission necessary'.

Forge World and many parts of GW don't see eye to eye on FW's 'Officialness'. FW can print that they are official, and other parts of GW can't stop them. But at the same time, you don't see FW rules allowed in GT's, and most RTT's. Especially in the US you don't see it much. GW Retail stores don't sell the books, except for the four bunkers, and don't encourage the use of FW models much. Independent stores sure as hell don't encourage them, as they don't make anything off FW whatsoever, and don't have access to the books.

Apocalypse has broken that open somewhat, and hopefully GW will continue making large models, and FW might think of making future IA books available the way they did IA:Apocalypse.

But saying that they are 100% legal, or don't require an opponents permission is very misleading. I'd rather not see someone believe that and find out from his local group differnently after he spends a few hundred dollars.

Gaming is always going to be about the interactions between gamers in their local area. If everyone wants to see as much FW as possible, and no permission needed, that's going to work for them. If another group doesn't want to, fine again. Coming into play a game, and pull something out to use against your opponent, and tell him he doesn't have a choice, isn't going to fly most places.

As to a GW store allowing someone to use a Baneblade in a normal game, I find it a bit ignorant, if the opponent didn't want to play against it. It's not in a normal codex, and is as illegal as taking 6 heavy support, or putting a unit of devastators in your ork army. If someone didn't care, and just wanted to play a game for fun, good for them. If they were playing a league or tournament game, and had it forced on them, it's stupid.

mikhaila wrote:If no one feels like playing you when bring a warhound to a 1500 point game

That would be illegal. Bringing any Super-Heavy in games beneath 2000 points is illegal. That aside, the IA books state that informing your opponent about super-heavies is the way to go as they have a dramatic impact upon the game and therefore must be prepared for.

But if someone shows up with a 2000 point Imperial Guard army, and one of the Russes is a Leman Russ Executioner, is someone going to declare the whole army illegal because he didn't ask permission? That's why the forewords of the IA books (Apoc notwithstanding) dispose of the 'require's opponent's permission' thing.

BYE

But if someone shows up with a 2000 point Imperial Guard army, and one of the Russes is a Leman Russ Executioner, is someone going to declare the whole army illegal because he didn't ask permission?

And I can easily agree with that. But it's a far step from making all of IA 100% legal with no permission needed.

For being a collection of veteran gamers, I'm suprised this is a topic of debate. Nothing GW prints is 100% legal, any more then nothing (even the mighty Pan-Fo) is 100% illegal. Any debate on legality must have context.

In general, RTTs don't allow Forge world stuff (meaning the IA rules, not alternate models), but that's a decision of tournament organizers.

In general play, I'd be a bit hestitent to allow apocolypse stuff, as that has been pointed and designed to fit into apocolypse games, which have a PP style "my broken-fu is stronger then yours" sort of vibe. The "classic" IA stuff is generally overcosted (a few potent examples aside), so there's generally little problem from a competitive point of view.

Really, the main concerns over legality for pick up and play with IA isn't the power level, it's simply the availability of the rules. The codices are widely available, easily digested, and affordable. the IA books are rare, hard to find, and shockingly expensive. If a shop has a copy floating around to the extent that most gamers are familiar, then it'll generally be accepted for pick up games.

Polonius wrote:
Really, the main concerns over legality for pick up and play with IA isn't the power level, it's simply the availability of the rules. The codices are widely available, easily digested, and affordable. the IA books are rare, hard to find, and shockingly expensive. If a shop has a copy floating around to the extent that most gamers are familiar, then it'll generally be accepted for pick up games.

This is exactly why they need to do new $20-25 paperback versions of Imperial Armour available in non-GW stores like the first 2(or 3, can't remember exactly). Even if they're just collections of the entries like they were back then, with little amounts of fluff.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ok, then that applies to IA: Apoc, not to anythign else.

Who's wasting who's time now? How do you get that when they say that only the codexes and rulebook are official and that EVERYTHING ELSE is up to the players to decide? Last time I looke the Imperial Armour book were not codexes or the rulebook. Therefore it falls under the category of 'everything else'. Sorry, but your claims that the Imperial Armour books don't require your opponent's consent just does not stand up.

Given that actually playing the game at all requires an opponent's consent, I really don't see the problem here.

The real problem here is attitude. All it takes is for one poaster to get snippy and then it snowballs.

Any game you play requires you to have some sort of relationship with your opponent, even if you just met. Coming to agreement on what is allowed in the game is all the permission you need outside of a tournament setting. In a tournament, it's whatever the organizer allows. It seems that some of you are more worried about proving other poasters wrong than actually answering the question.

I think we should consider the fact that there are a few kinds of Forge World models. The non-superheavy, non-flyer units in the Apocalypse and IA: Apoc rulebooks are, IMHO, fair and legal. If my opponent wants to field a Terminus Land Raider or a Damocles Rhino against me, then by all means he may do so with no objections from me.

Flyers and Superheavies are a different beast. I see flyers as being something only used for large (2000+ points) games, and Superheavies as being Apocalypse-sized units only.

My group has a general rule of thumb: you may take one Superheavy for every 2000 points of the overall list, rounding up. In addition, the number of Structure Points totalled up from all Superheavies on a single side must not exceed the thousands digit of your side's points value plus one.

In other words, if your side has 5000 points and your opponent has 6000, you may take up to 3 Superheavies whose SP total may not exceed 6 Structure Points, while your opponent may take up to 3 Superheavies whose SP total may not exceed 7 Structure Points.

On the bottom end of the scale, you have 3000 point games where 2 Superheavies may be fielded with an SP total of 4. This allows people to still throw down a decent amount of superheavies, but at the same time not spam on them. Taking more than this amount would require the opponent's consent. I digress.

I think the non-Superheavy, non-Flyer units in the two Apoc books are legal for normal games. Superheavies are relegated to Apocalypse (3000+ points), and Flyers are relegated for larger games (2000+ points) with notification to your opponent. Just my views.

CK

GW (and other game companies, too!) almost needs a standardized grading system for such things. Something like:

* Core (Unit/rules expansion/whatever is a basic part of the game.)
* Experimental (Trial rules, etc.)
* Supplementary (Add-ons, special stuff, etc.)
* Joke (Because some people think Movie Marines was a serious and well-written article.)

Basically, to me things like Baneblades are neat but not something I'd want to deal with in every game. To paraphrase the modern version of our old pal Cookie Monster, "Baneblades are a sometimes food."

so are the units with the apoc data sheets in the new release legal in apoc games?

smart_alex wrote:so are the units with the apoc data sheets in the new release legal in apoc games?

Nothing is "legal" in apoc games until your opponent says so. Pretty much everything you do in apoc games has to be ok with your opponents. Apoc is just for fun and there are no tournament standards for it currently and the books even state as much in the opening section.

smart_alex wrote:so are the units with the apoc data sheets in the new release legal in apoc games?

They are as legal as anything in the Apocalypse book itself.

Balance wrote:GW (and other game companies, too!) almost needs a standardized grading system for such things. Something like:

* Core (Unit/rules expansion/whatever is a basic part of the game.)
* Experimental (Trial rules, etc.)
* Supplementary (Add-ons, special stuff, etc.)
* Joke (Because some people think Movie Marines was a serious and well-written article.)

Like, say, the old Chapter Approved rating system?

Boy, that would be smart. It'd be even smarter if they bound them up in a book at the end of each year, and made them official and usable from that point on.

Man, that would be nice.

Does anyone here remember 4 years ago?

[Sarcasm aimed at GW, not Balance or anyone else here.]

Pariah Press wrote:
Not really. Some of the units may be relatively balanced for regular 40K games, but some are too powerful. Imperial Armour Apocalypse is certainly not officially sanctioned for use in any major 40K tournament that I know of.

Uh, I think Adepticon counts as a major tournament. It's on the GT circut at least and has (to my knowledge) the highest attendance of any tournament in the world.


H.B.M.C:

You may want to know that in preparation for Adepticon, we spoke with Warwick about the future of Imperial Armor. According to him, the future of IA is Apocalypse meaning that all rules from here on out for IA stuff will follow the mold presented in Apocalypse and IA Apocalypse.

So no more Mass points, and the rules for flyers and Super-Heavies will follow those published in Apocalypse.



And it is fairly easy to incorporate IA Apocalypse into tournament 40k. You just disallow the formations and use the army recaps in IA Apocalypse for what Force Org chart all Apocalypse and IA units fall into.

Any new Apoc units published on the GW website that you want to incorporate count as a Super-Heavy Detachment (if they're super-heavy) or a Heavy Support choice otherwise.


While we had a few problems with some people ignoring the posted tournament rules and trying to use the previous IA versions of some units for the most part the inclusion of Apocalypse/IA units at Adepticon went pretty smoothly.

During the Gladiator/team tourne me and the team I was on had no problem, other than bewilderment as to what things did, dealing with the units/superheavies and/or rules. If anything it add more flavor to the stew that is 40k.

That's because Adepticon is known for letting tournament players play with Forgeworld stuff.

Savnock wrote:
Like, say, the old Chapter Approved rating system?

Boy, that would be smart. It'd be even smarter if they bound them up in a book at the end of each year, and made them official and usable from that point on.

Man, that would be nice.

Does anyone here remember 4 years ago?

Exactly! But I think it should have been expanded, as I believe it was just "Chapter Approved/Trial" and was misapplied... I believe the 2nd 40k Chapter Approved collection had some weird labeling that meant that it wasn't clear if a couple articles were CA or not.