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So, I have been collecting Imperial Fist bits for a while now. I have enough stuff to start painting. But just as I have reached this point GW pulls a dirty trick on me....

I have been obsessed with yellow marines for a while now, hence the Imperial Fists. But my first love was for a bone colored Force. For a long time I hoped beyond hope for a 1st company list and would have made an all veterans force. But my attentions, as it will, shifted to yellow.

Having recently seen what the new GW washes can do I am thinking about a bleached bone force again.. But using all the Imperial fist bits I have. So here is the question.. how does everyon efeel about alternate colors for established chapters? Could I have a bone colored Imperial Fists force?

You decide!

ender502

Well given the Imperial Fists (and sucessors) obsession with scrimshawing (bone carving), you could easily do a successor that has a very similar logo and a different scheme, with a bone heavy theme.

I use a white armored Death Company (made from berserker sprues) for my Fleshtearers. I see no problem as long as you're up front about it.

I'd go with how you want to paint them(bone is more the preference, apparently). If you do, go the "this is a new successor chapter" route. In a way, it would make them more your marines, plus you have an excuse for swapping between Lysander and Kantor when the feeling arises.

As long as you are not painting some generic marine army and jumping codex every other game I don't think anyone would have a problem.

Nothing bugged me more back in the day when the same army would randomly hop from Space wolves to Blood Angles to Black templar rules depending on who he was playing.

Especially if your force org and model markings are clear, I doubt anyone would have a problem with a bone Imperial Fists sub-chapter.

I think it'd actually be pretty cool to do a bone-colored IF army - maybe do them with desert bases - make it look like they've been stranded on a desert death world and their yellow armor has been faded to bone.

nkelsch wrote:As long as you are not painting some generic marine army and jumping codex every other game I don't think anyone would have a problem.

Um, that's the point of having a DIY chapter, so that you can switch to something else for variety's sake.

You could also paint it as a "Crusade Army". The basic concept is that of an army composed from the same codex, but every squad is from a different chapter. At that point, I'd say named characters would be a no-go, because that's the benefit of being a specific chapter.

Rules wise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. You can use IF bitz, paint them bone, call them Space Wolves and use Black Templar rules, as long as you tell your opponent what everything is and the weapons/wargear are modeled. I wouldn't recommend that, but there's no rule against it.

If you simply want bone colored IF, there are many wasy to justify it. Maybe your army is a reserve company that was disgraced at a battle, and may not wear proper heraldy until redeemed. Maybe it's the traditional color of one of the line companies. You could be seconded to a crusader force, or allied to an inquisitor. You could be an "off the books" company sent on dangerous missions. You could even be a "long lost" company that finally emerged from a warp storm, and takes no heraldy as a courtesy to the current companies.

Keep in mind that to many, Imperial Fists are really only noteworthy for being yellow, so not everyone is going to get it. Still, it's your army, do what you want.

As the owner of purple Blood Angels I see nothing wrong with it. I like not being tied down to a single codex.

Paint your army however you want to paint them. Then play with whatever codex you want (so long as its more or less based on the models you have). So long as your models are modeled to be what they are, who cares if you have pink space wolves or purple blood angles. I can't tell you how much I hate seeing the same paint scheme on most armies I fight. Tau don't have to be tan, marines don't have to be blue, gray, black, or red, orcs dont' have to be green, so on and so forth. I really hate how the painting "guid lines" have been so etched into peoples minds that they think they are rules (and posts like this are the result).

I had a friend that painted each indivdual marine in his army a different way. It was cool, if a bit incohesive, but he was creative and a good painter so it worked. At one point someone tried to get him kicked out of a tournament because of his paint jobs. That's just the highest level of insanity I can think of. Punishing someone for really getting into the hobby? Madness.

nkelsch wrote:As long as you are not painting some generic marine army and jumping codex every other game I don't think anyone would have a problem.

Nothing bugged me more back in the day when the same army would randomly hop from Space wolves to Blood Angles to Black templar rules depending on who he was playing.

Nothing wrong with hopping codexes or army lists between battles. Now if it is being done specificaly as a way to tailor your list against your next opponent, then it can be shady depending on how its done. If you play a game as blood angles and then decide to play space wolves for the next battle, make a list and then find an opponent (or find one, figure out a point value, and then make a list) its ok. However if you find an opponent, he tells you he's going to be playing IG gun line next game and then you decide to play space wolves and max out on blood claws to screw him, that's not cool.

I said #3 just because it is a game.

But I wouldn't do it myself.

Ultramarines and Space Wolves are often painted differently. I would expect a new Space Wolves colour scheme in the new book. Darker maybe. But maybe not.

Polonius wrote:Rules wise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. You can use IF bitz, paint them bone, call them Space Wolves and use Black Templar rules, as long as you tell your opponent what everything is and the weapons/wargear are modeled.

If you simply want bone colored IF, there are many wasy to justify it.

I dunno. if you say that your army is "Space Wolves", people are going to expect that you use the actual Space Wolf rules. It's almost as bad as coming to the table with a full-on Ultramarine army, and then say they're actually vanilla Chaos Marines.

Yeah. Tho I think the easiest justification is to simply call them a successor chapter.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

nkelsch wrote:As long as you are not painting some generic marine army and jumping codex every other game I don't think anyone would have a problem.

Um, that's the point of having a DIY chapter, so that you can switch to something else for variety's sake.

Considering most people I have seen do this don't WYSIWYG it becomes very hard to tell what things are, especially when you play them frequently. "switching to something else for variety's sake" is code for Powergaming when you are "black templar VS orks" and then become "Blood Anges VS Nids".

If my vehicles have to be red to 'go fasta' and get 1" then Black templar better have some marking to get a bonus 'to hit' against my greenies. Nothing was worse than every space marine army transforming into black templar so they can have the vow to hit you and a nondescript model pops out a challenge to kill your warboss because he is an emperors champion.

I call BS. It is not code for power gaming. It sounds like you just need to stop playing this guy if he causes you this much trouble.

@ CD: I agree. It sounds like someone is more cheaty than powergaming.

@nkelsch: If my models and conversions are clear, and I tell you in advance which list I'm using, so what if I play BT vs Orks and BA vs Nids?

You chose to play Orks, with the painting restriction that the model needs to be red. I chose to play SM without such restrictions. Deal with it, or don't play Orks vs SM.

It makes me cringe,..... but OK,.... I agree, play them as a successor to the fists.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@nkelsch: If my models and conversions are clear, and I tell you in advance which list I'm using, so what if I play BT vs Orks and BA vs Nids?

You chose to play Orks, with the painting restriction that the model needs to be red. I chose to play SM without such restrictions. Deal with it, or don't play Orks vs SM.

Most times with codex-hoppers the conversions are not clear (even though they think they are), the models are not WYSIWG and there is lots of 'counts as' and explaining that has to go with those codex hopping marines. You will find no such questions about my orks. I guarantee you that.

And you don't have the luxury of codex swapping or list tailoring in a tournament, so if you are tooling up lists and hopping codexes minutes before a game to specifically be ultra effective against a specific army type, then how fun do you think that is for your opponent? And if both sides are doing it, it sounds painfully boring and a waste of time that would be better spent painting.

nkelsch wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@nkelsch: If my models and conversions are clear, and I tell you in advance which list I'm using, so what if I play BT vs Orks and BA vs Nids?

You chose to play Orks, with the painting restriction that the model needs to be red. I chose to play SM without such restrictions. Deal with it, or don't play Orks vs SM.

Most times with codex-hoppers the conversions are not clear (even though they think they are), the models are not WYSIWG and there is lots of 'counts as' and explaining that has to go with those codex hopping marines. You will find no such questions about my orks. I guarantee you that.

And you don't have the luxury of codex swapping or list tailoring in a tournament, so if you are tooling up lists and hopping codexes minutes before a game to specifically be ultra effective against a specific army type, then how fun do you think that is for your opponent? And if both sides are doing it, it sounds painfully boring and a waste of time that would be better spent painting.

I don't think you understand what people are talking about in terms of codex flexibilty. What you're describing is proxying, lousy play, and basically cheating. Yes, nobody says you should do that, any more than you shouldn't vist old people at the nursing home and set them on fire.

If you have a core of bolter marines, rhinos, and tanks, then it's actually really simple to add a few neophytes, or swap in extra assault marines or a death company, or even add Berzerkers as a chaos army. Let's not assume that every hobbyist is a lazy, cheating git. Tailoring lists before a game, unless agreed upon, is quite taboo, as is saying "Space Marines" and showing up with blood angels or Chaos. So, ease up a little bit, I'm sorry you know some bad guys, but this can be done honorably and well.

Its 100% perfectly acceptable as long as you don't Proxy Models/bits. Hell my Space Marine army is both BA and DA. I DO NOT proxy models, but i re-use the same Tactical/Devastator/Terminator/Bike marines depending on how i design my lists. I always let my opponent know before we even make lists what "Doctrines?" i am using.

nkelsch wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@nkelsch: If my models and conversions are clear, and I tell you in advance which list I'm using, so what if I play BT vs Orks and BA vs Nids?

Most times with codex-hoppers the conversions are not clear (even though they think they are), the models are not WYSIWG and there is lots of 'counts as' and explaining that has to go with those codex hopping marines.

And you don't have the luxury of codex swapping or list tailoring in a tournament, so if you are tooling up lists and hopping codexes minutes before a game to specifically be ultra effective against a specific army type, then how fun do you think that is for your opponent?

And if both sides are doing it, it sounds painfully boring and a waste of time that would be better spent painting.

OK, let's look at the grey marines as WYSIWYG BA/BT:
1. How is a Tactical Marine with Lascannon not clear?
2. If I have a Character in black armor, skull helmet and shoulderpad, holding a big power sword, how is that not WYSIWYG for "counts as" Chaplain?
3. If I have a Character in crusade armor, mk.2 helmet, holding an even bigger & blacker power sword, how is that not WYSIWYG for "counts as" Emperor's Champion?
4. If I have a squad of Jump Packers in distinctive armor and weapons, colored differently from anything else in the army, , how is that not WYSIWYG for "counts as" Death Company?

If I'm playing in a tournament, then I am required to submit the list I'm going to play at the start of the tournament, and I'm going to play that same list for the duration. Anything else would be outright cheating and risk disqualification.

A lot of games are arranged on the spot, so I often don't make or pick lists until minutes before I play. But then, in these same situations, neither does my opponent.

I don't see the issue, nor why you're upset. Orks are a strong Codex, so you shouldn't have anything to complain about. I mean, what kind of tailoring is even possible?

Quite frankly, I've never heard of anybody get their panties in such a bunch over this sort of thing.
____

I'm thinking the problem lies more with your opponents than anything else.

It's your 40k army.

Paint them how you want.

As long as everyone you play is aware they are Imperial fists before you start then I don't see what the issue is.

How many Eldrads are out there in other colours?

I voted #3.

Paint your army any way you please. It is, afterall, your army. You spent hard earned cash on the minis so you should color them as YOU see fit.

If you choose to do an alternate scheme of bone, by all means, jump codex to codex. As long as your list is built within the limitations of said codex, who really cares? Is an Ultra Bolter Marine any different from a Fist or BA Bolter Marine? Lookswise, no.

In regards to fluff, IIRC, there is nothing that says any chapter HAS to be colored in THIS manner. The red RT Compilation has a drawing of recon space wolves in camo as well as a few chapters in alternate colors based on specific campaigns. Then there's the Alpha legion, who wore Ultra colors to get close to Ultra lines, before attacking.

Variety is the spice of life. I'd be more than happy to play your bone colored Fists, followed by a game of bone colored 7th Company Fists (BA dex), followed by another game of Renegade bone colored fists (Alpha Legion).

This certainly beats playing primer only armies because you're not sure which dex you like best.

As far as special Charaqcters go? If Eldrad can lead any craftworld, any SM special can lead any army, provided it's within the rules. No Marneus leading an army picked from codex BA... However, A Red Scorpion with the same stats as Tycho will certainly be fighting alongside my 8th Company Red Scorpions.

Well.. the masses have spoken! Thanks for your opinions. Now...all I have to do is refloor 2 rooms, a hallway, a flight of stairs, paint a room and install a cieling fan and then I can start painting.

Please kill me now. =(

ender502

i voted three too,

but i have a bone colored SM force, it ends up looking really nice. it really pops on the table and draws a lot of attention.

There are plenty of precedents in the fluff for alternate color schemes. Raptors, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, and several Badab War Chapters spring to mind. I say that there is nothing stopping you from paintinf bone-colored Fists. Working the scrimshaw theme in there would be tres cool.

#3.


A friend in our group plays Dark Angels, but, liking the colour-scheme of the Deathwing more, has painted most of his guys in a darkened bone colour, with green robes.

Looks awesome.

They're still Dark Angels though>

BYE

Well, there's no reason they couldn't be an Imperial Fist succesor chapter with special characters that are similar to the IF guys..

I'd have no qualms if you wanted to call the Imperial Fists, but then again, why not come up with an awesome succesor chapter name and special character names (based on the IF guys) and there you go.. Your own unique army that is IF based.

Even though its fairly well settled, I'd have to say three. Not because its a game or whatever, but it's fairly easy to say specific chapters would alter thier armor for certain purposes. If you can come up with the fluff to supposrt it then why the hell not? I can easily see the Raven Guard altering their colors to be more tactical. i.e. browns and tans for an ashwaste, greens for a jungle world.