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In another thread, I spotted a fellow Forum Members signature, which contained a link to a LatD petition, and that he'd praying for LatD Codex since 200X....

And this got me thinking. Out there, on the Web, are a number of sites containing 'user content' for the games. Now, not all, if any, of these tend to be balanced. I've always taken it (YMMV) that Home Brew rules will lean toward biased at best, as people naturally want the biggest bang for their buck.

So, instead of petitioning GW to sell us something in particular, could it be more constructive (and this is what I want to discuss) if we could convince, harass, harung, hector, heckle and generally annoy, GW into making a portion of their website available for the best Home Brews out there.

Now, the idea here is that, although they would be unlikely to be 'official' rules, there would at least be a sort of set standard. This means that if you wish to use a LatD, Squat, Space Slann, Pygmies etc army in friendly play, then at least I too can go to the website, download the rules, and have an idea of what I'm up against.

The obvious plus side to this, is that GW could monitor the download rates to see which of these proves most popular. This could, theoretically, promote these side armies in terms of popularity, meaning they become more attractive to GW to work on themselves. After all, it takes resources and time to create a Codex, and the accompanying range. The main armies, understandably, have first shout in terms of this. But with the free 'market research' it can show that Gamers might like one of these to be considered a main army.

At the very least, rather than actually hosting the PDFs, they could link prospective players to the site of origin. Would be a nice way to encourage, and simultaneously embrace the more creative side of the Hobby?

I rather like this idea.

Obligatory negativity:
It'll never happen.

Balzac wrote:I rather like this idea.

Obligatory negativity:
It'll never happen.

Agreed on both points, but with GW trying to lean towards hobby content more today (or at least they say they will) you never know.

An online Citadel Journal? Good idea but will never happen.

Why not though? The main reason they no longer support the Journal is that it cost more money than it made. Any business is likely to drop that.

The only mistake they made was forgetting to make it part of their website. Sure, some poor mook has to maintain it, but thats pretty much your only cost involved, seeing as the Website is pre-existing.

The problem is copyright - if GW used any ideas published on their site by third parties to make money, the original author could sue them.

Whilst I think the plaintiff would lose the case, GW can't be bothered with the hassle, so they'll not leave themselves open in the first place.

Actually, GW have this covered. Anything submitted to them as an article is done so on the understanding that GW then own that idea lock, stock and barrell.

Is pretty common with Magazine Articles I belive. The Author gets a lump sum for writing the article, and thats it. GW just don't pay you in cash, though I believe, once upon a time, they did give you models instead.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:The problem is copyright - if GW used any ideas published on their site by third parties to make money, the original author could sue them.

That's actually really easy to avoid. You just include a disclaimer as part of the agreement to post material on the website, basically stating that any and all material published on this section of the website becomes the property of Games Workshop. Those who don't like that won't post anything, and those that won't care will post anyway and not have a leg to stand on should it ever come to court.

BYE

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Why not though? The main reason they no longer support the Journal is that it cost more money than it made. Any business is likely to drop that.

The only mistake they made was forgetting to make it part of their website. Sure, some poor mook has to maintain it, but thats pretty much your only cost involved, seeing as the Website is pre-existing.

Look at the direction GW is currently taking outsourcing the Specialist game forums. If there was ever a good place to test out such an idea before doing the same for GW’s core games it was Specialist games.

Anything that GW does is designed to sell toy soldiers (they are after all a toy soldier company these days). GW could not respond to the new figure sales demand that new (uncontrolled) army lists may (or may not) generate. Look at how difficult it is to get Specialist games figures an think how much more complicated this would be with unofficial lists. Further more as GW’s (individual) bitz service is now gone figure conversions would also be impossible to supply parts for.

If the Citadel Journal wasn't meeting its costs then it were clearly being mishandled because the costs of running it must have been minimal as a bi-monthly black and white publication.

Determining which unofficial list is the definitive version can also be fraught with difficulties.

IMO Dakka‘s article feature serves the home brewer better than GW ever could.

MDG, I appreciate the thinking. It wouldn't hurt to bounce that idea off one of them at a Games Day or something. However, it probably won't happen because 1) variant lists aren't part of the business plan anymore, and 2) the design team feels that kind of stuff can be shunted into and handled by Apocalypse.

My take on #1 is that they're all about having neatly packaged products now...you pick up the codex, decide on some units and stroll over to the rack to buy the clearly marked boxed set with all the options from the codex already on the sprue.

As a mishmash army, LatD sales are nearly impossible to track, and they're not as easy for a complete newbie to figure out what they need to buy. And I think those are two major problems the army has inside GW. So though an official or officially unofficial LatD (or other army) list would generate sales at virtually no cost to the company, they aren't interested. It's much more of a marketing decision than a sales decision, it appears.

Regarding #2, Jervis made it clear in a response to me that they like LatD as a concept...they aren't Squats Mk. II. They just feel they're "better suited for" Apocalypse. This is, of course, a shaky argument. LatD aren't strictly Traitor IG, but any nearly argument you could make for LatD being better suited for Apoc could also be made for IG. But IG have an existing, dedicated product line...which goes to show you it is all about the miniatures and the business plan.

Which is fine, if tremendously disappointing. I just wish LatD and other variant armies had some advocates inside the company outside of FW. I've wondered out loud here and elsewhere if we should contact everyone who signed the petition, pass the hat around and use the money to bribe Phil Kelly into being our patron saint.

Still, I feel a petition to show support for such a concept might hold more sway than one about a specific army.

They have done download Codecies before, but like you said, generally for an already supported line.

Hmmm.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Still, I feel a petition to show support for such a concept might hold more sway than one about a specific army.

Do you have any reason to feel that way or is it just naivety disguised as enthusiasm? The design team have now taken to making up outlandish excuses rather than provide after sales support in areas of the game they don't want to.

I like to call it optimism.

I'm very much in the nothing ventured nothing gained camp.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is pretty common with Magazine Articles I belive. The Author gets a lump sum for writing the article, and thats it. GW just don't pay you in cash, though I believe, once upon a time, they did give you models instead.

That's actually not the case; magazine articles typically retain the copyright of the author who can then sell it to any number of magazines. What they are doing is selling a certain exclusivity to prevent it from being published in two competing magazines within a reasonable time frame. Typically a writer will make more on their first sale of a given article (right of first publishing) and then less on subsequent publishings but it is absolutely still theirs, but it is way off topic.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Actually, GW have this covered. Anything submitted to them as an article is done so on the understanding that GW then own that idea lock, stock and barrell.

Is pretty common with Magazine Articles I belive. The Author gets a lump sum for writing the article, and thats it. GW just don't pay you in cash, though I believe, once upon a time, they did give you models instead.

When I was a magazine editor the standard deal was first and second serial rights, reverting to the author subsequently.

It's only fascist "All or your idea are belong to us" companies that try anything else without fair payment.

(And most of them are rubbishy internet companies that don't have the skill, talent or guts to make any decent content so they rely on users sending it in.)

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I like to call it optimism.

I'm very much in the nothing ventured nothing gained camp.

Good luck with that, I'm sure the brick wall will pipe up any minute now.

In all seriousness I think your energies could be better directed. Then perhaps something could be gained.

Trying costs nothing except a little time. And I certainly have that on my hands.

MDG, I say go for it. There's nothing to lose. You have to plant the seed before anything's going to bear fruit.

And the thing people have to remember is that the wind direction seems to change often at GW. And given that GW sales are still shaky, who's to say what the future might bring? Variants and sublists could be all the rage again if an executive decides they might help push a little extra product. That's really all it would take, and it's not a far-fetched scenario.

There may be a use for this in a much more limited form. They could revive the Dark Angels codex and other 'lost' MEQ sub lists, using it to bring them up to Codex Space Marine speed and make it available as a PDF.