Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just had another look at the thread about modelling normal Chaos Marines with Wings, and using them as Raptors.

The Poster was expressing concern that, no matter how inherently cool (and indeed, fittingly Chaotic) the conversion would be, that opponents might throw a hissy fit over WYSIWYG, and him not using the official models.

This concerns me quite a bit, as it suggests that certain parts of the community have completely forgotten that the products GW churn out are part of a Hobby. A Hobby in which the actual games themselves are not the be all and end all. My main worry is that due to hyper-competitive gits turning up at Tournaments willing to quibble over every little thing that may or may not swing things in their favour are discouraging those with a more relaxed approach from fully indulging in the Hobby.

For example, my pre-Soulcrusher Daemon Prince. Modelled off a Defiler Chassis and the torso of the Daemon Prince, this was intended for use in my now long sold off Iron Warriors army as a Daemon Prince with Daemonic Speed mutation. Sure, it looked the part, and looked cool (shame I never painted it) but the downside was that his base size went up considerably, and as a result, he never, EVER made it into combat, instead being blasted to kingdome come in the first couple of turns as he enthusastically but futilely hid behind a small hedge trying not to be seen.

Now, clearly, englarging the base size of a model is not that reccomended when playing in a competitive environment, as done enough throughout your army, you are giving your opponent an arguably easier time, and, if the rules are applied strictly, technically cheating (as you are meant to use the supplied base)

So, the crux of the matter. Just how threatened is the modelling, converting and scratch building aspect of the hobby threatened by the overly zealous application of WYSIWYG? To me, this should only apply to *options* on the model, such as weapon upgrades and other exotic equipment. Conversions get to break this rule with me because a) A lot of work has gone into it, suggesting my opponent is into the hobby for more than just winning and b) being so unique, I'm going to ask about it anyways. Whether it's counts as or is something homebaked, I'm not too fussed.

Now, discuss! (n.b. I'm not blaming tournaments. Just the who ruin them with a WAAC attitude.)

In my opinion modelling variations is great and the only key requirement is that the changed model can't be mistaken for some other model it is not.

From this viewpoint, the use of wings on Chaos Raptors is fine.

GW encourages variant modelling provided it uses mostly GW parts.

In a tournament situation, the judges would make a call about any complaints on WYSIWIG. The Chaos Winged Raptor guy could call ahead and get a ruling before it even began.

Outside a tournament, it's between the two players. If someone is a big enough git, just don't play with them.

Very interesting question. This is a permanent gray area in the hobby because Warhammer is a hybrid between modeling and gaming.

If a player wants strictly to game, he could play video games or board games. The rules and players are the dominating factors in this scenario, and the game pieces are simply functional.

On the other hand, if a player wants strictly to model, he could convert and scratch build to his wildest imaginings. Here, rules have no place, and cool design is the only goal.

Instead, Warhammer provides us a balance of the two poles, and this balance is a constant source of fun and conflict. If the balance tips too strongly to one side or the other, the game loses its magic. The problem is figuring out that balance, and that's where OP's question comes in.

My main rule is that I try to keep conversions obvious and fun, but that doesn't always work when one party or the other has an agenda other than friendly competition.

I think more that WYSIWYG only applies to wargear, in that it is represented consistently. I don't care if you Chaos boys are dressed as Ultramarines for this game so long as every plasma pistol is a plasma pistol, or your daemon prince is recognizable as something big and important (as opposed to there being 11 identical terminators I need to guess between.)

Counts As seems to cover the using of different models for different rules, and that has pretty much explicitely been labeled ok by GW, so long as it is mostly their model.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Just had another look at the thread about modelling normal Chaos Marines with Wings, and using them as Raptors.

That is not a concern. That is cool modeling.

In all the tournaments I've been in, I can't see how anybody would have an issue with that type of modelling. I'm not concerned at all

I think it is worrying that this is a question. I agree that there is a need to clearly have plasma pistols as plasma pistols as mentioned above, or to have something more cool as a plasma pistol

I've never had any problems with it myself nor anyone i know, i'm almost more interested to find out who has had problems with WYSIWYG nazi's....

I have a feeling that this problem in some ways is not a problem

But surely if a Gamer feels the need to check with the wider community if he can get away with such an obvious 'well, yeah' type conversion, it's showing the impact just a few bunghole's (sorry, been watching tres mucho Beavis and Butthead) can have.

Trust in the Emperor...er Judges

Judges are all fine and well once you get to the event. But what if the sheer worry of not being able to use the unit prevents it from being made?

i would say wings are more fitting , might be blessed and get them rather than using mechanical ones.

would look alot better aswell

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Judges are all fine and well once you get to the event. But what if the sheer worry of not being able to use the unit prevents it from being made?

You've received overwhelming support from Dakka. If you only want to use these winged Raptors in a tournament, you may need to worry. If you like the idea and will use them for friendly games, just make them. Check with the judges before you join the tournament.

I'd like to meet the person who gets upity about Raptors modelled with wings over actual jump packs.

Then I'd punch him.

BYE

The concern is caused not by the tourny gaming community. The real culprits are the WYSIWYG fetishists (the clowns who take this common sense guideline to stupid extremes) and the "*sputter, froth* WOT DO YOU MEAN YOU PLAY IT NORMAL ON PAPER!!??!!" crowd (ie the folks who think that GW is the end all in regards to the wargaming hobby). These are the people (with their attitudes that have been to a large degree inspired by GW) that kill much of the creativity and willingness to be a resonable person as an opponent in this game.

TR

I had someone at the local `Ard Boyz match complaining about the guns on my Monolith. If you've not seen it, I removed the guns and replaced them with just green rods fit into the corners of it. You still have a physical place to measure range from, and it Shortens my range my ~1/2"-1", but he kept bringing it up thru out the day. Yet he wonders why I generally avoid playing games against him.

I am reminded of a sig I once had, taken from another Dakkite's post that went something like "if a guy is an arse it's because he is an arse, not because of the list he plays with".

I don't know anyone that would say they can't act as jump people... we play a game with toy soldiers on weekends... think about that.

I tell you what. Model them up. Go ahead. If any body gives you gak about it in a tourney, hardboyz, friendly match, or anything else; smile. Thank them for pointing that out. Get their email address, because it is always so nice to have knowledgable people you can communicate with on rules issues. Post their email here, with explaination. Roll on the floor and laugh your ass off.

Speaking of sigs kilkrazy is your sig "Yes, it's Chrome, the browser by Google, and it displays web pages." from the short story burning Chrome or something else entirely.

It's from The Register, a UK based IT news website.