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HI all.
With the brilliant AoBR and LOTR 'non multipart/multipose' plastic kit ranges .
And the Collectors range of minatures ,(The Cool sculpts that arent realy game related.)

Why not produce a simpler range of cheaper minis for gamers to push around the Table.(Like in AoBR).

Then have a range of upgrade sprues to increase the variety -detail of the 'Gamer range' standard units.

And a range of Collectors minatures primarily for display cabinets.

So a 'bog standard army for gamers' is more affordable.

And folk can spend a much as they want 'upgrading 'units , or using expencive metal minatures where they want .

I know some say GW make a wide range of plastics already.

But £80+ for the AoBR marine force (Commander, Dreadnought, 5 termies , tac squad.)
Compared to £15 for the AoBR minatures is a HUGE jump.

I know there are gamers that can afford £200 to £500 for one army .
But how many more gamers would play if they could get a army of 'Gameing minatures' for £100 -£150

As GW have 'collector market' and 'gamer market' , why not sell ranges of minatures apropriate to end purpose.

I belive a drop in price point from 'simpler minatures' would expand the potential market for GW gamers.

What do you think?

I think that at some point, gamers need to let go of the apron strings and play with multi-pose / metal minis.

Hi JohnHwangDD.

Thank you for you informative and detailed reply.I assume you have lots of money to throw GWs way.
But spare a thought for those gamers that may not have as much spare cash as you.

Why do you think gamers should pay 2 to 3 times as much for a minature from GW, when the same in game effect could be achived at a fraction of the price?

I know alot of gamers that are put off 40k due to the prohibative cost of collecting an army.

But I suppose this keeps 40k in the hands of the 'more money than sense' demographic GW wants to attract.

TTFN
Lanrak.

@Lanrak:

If you look at my 40k army listing, your assumption would be correct - I *have* thrown lots of money at GW and continue to do so.

If someone can't afford to play GW, then that's too darn bad.

Now, are you aware that purpose-built racing cars are rather expensive to purchase, operate, and maintain? Racing cars cost easily 2 or 3 times what one might pay for an economy car with the same overall utility (cramped 2-person cabin, minimal carrying capacity).

But if that's what you want, then you're going to need to pay the price. Complaining that it's "too expensive" is something that falls upon deaf ears. I don't complain about motorsport pricing, because I know I can't afford it.

Quite frankly, as hobbies go, GW gaming really isn't very expensive at all. For $1 per day, you can easily afford to buy a 1500-pt army over the course of a year. And that army has a good 4+ year lifespan.

Lanrak wrote:What do you think?

Ebay.

use another company's mini's and play with your friends.

slowly start to replace them with gw mini's and there you go.

Don't do tournaments and you'll be fine. I've never met someone who was adverse to proxies for casual play so long as you made clear what was what.

Ok, time for the tongue lashing. (Courtesy of Lord-Lady Slaanesh(a), Master/Mistress of all things tongues and/or lashing)

I got into this hobby because I loved the models. I loved the fact that they are really sturdy and look great when you've put effort into them. This isn't so much a game as a hobby with gaming elements. For those who treat it as merely a game I say it degrades us all. If you want merely a game then play something that is just that. (like Chess or Magic: the Gathering)

I've bleed, sweated, and cried for this hobby and this game. I've seen it give people so much joy and so much pain. This thing is so much more than I could ever quantify. I know a guy on this board who accidentally put a dremel through his toe for this hobby. You see an army on the field in all its painted, custom modeled and detailed glory and you can't help but feel a part of something larger. To even ask that it be degraded simply for ease of entry is an abomination. This thing we do is a commitment. I've been committed for 11 years at this point. This hobby has been harder on me than any girlfriend could have been.

I've spent literally thousands of hours painting, modeling, designing list after list, traveling, gaming, and talking with fellow enthusiasts. This isn't a game; this is a lifestyle. If you can't make that kind of a commitment; go play something that's merely a game.

It is only a game. Not many how many others try to say otherwise they are still warbarbies and you are still playing with them. As for the cost ask around for people who are selling thier stuff second hand etc. I have found many an amazing deal just by asking around. You would be surprised at how many people hate the old models and are willing to part with them for next to nothing. Case in point my most recent purchase was 60 old rogue trader marines that I got in exchange for a box of the new assault termies.


It really does get easier if you are not playing in any tournaments, just find models you like regardless of the company and use those in your army. Also never let the elitist snobs ruin your enjoyment of this game. Because if it is not fun then why bother doing it?

OH dear. Time for a post I'll consider to be in depth but no one else will be able to follow. But hey ho, a rambling I shall go.

I see where Lanrak is coming from. Every Hobby needs a cut price entry point to entice people in. GW currently have this with AoBR, Mines of Moria and Skull Pass. All three games are very good boxed deals, and can, feasibly be used as a stand alone product, good enough to be played time and time again without the owner ever having to purchase another model.

What Lanrak is asking for, I think, is to have this extended beyond just the forces in the boxes, to include the forces for the various races and nations in the relevant universe. This, of course, makes very good sense. If, for example, I can pick up a core force for £20-£30, or even cheaper, I would do so. IT's cheap enough that should I retire it within months, or even weeks, I'd still have got my monies worth from it.

But then, there is the other problem. AoBR etc are fantastic value (relatively speaking of course) because they are the bait on the Hobby Hook, to us an analogy. Ever industry, somewhere, has a loss leader. In Cafe's and that, endless cups of tea or coffee fulfil this role. For GW, it's the Boxed Games. Sadly, GW could not simply offer a cut price like this for every army on the shelves. It could potentially ruin them. They are happy to make a theoretical loss on the Boxed Games, because from that point on, they have an excellent shot at getting hundreds, if not thousands of pounds, dollars, yen, donkies, and rabbitts out of each customer that bought one. This then makes up for the initial loss. But apply that to a boxed set which is freely available, and you start to see problems sneak in. For £20 or £30, I might buy two, and have a reasonable force with just a single addition. This isn't going to plan for GW. I'm simply taking advantage of the Loss Leader.

However, there is one way I can think of straight away....

Codex Bundle Deals. In time with each Codex release, a small force of special plastic models are produced. So, on release day, you can either pick up the Codex on it's todd, for those of us who like to own the books (excellent toilet literature, let me assure you!) or, if you are embarking on that armies route, the Codex and a small force comprised of aforemention special miniatures.

The thought behind this? Many times I've bought a Codex or Army book on release day, and almost as many I intended to make an army of. However, I tend to hold off on *big* purchases until I am sure. This usually involves taking said codex into said chodbin for a good long dump. With that out my system, and replace with a rudimentary knowledge, I can start planning.

But notice the emphasis on big purchases. If I was given the option of '£20 for a small force sir?' Im likely to spend it. £20 is not a lot of money between friends. And if I do that, I have some incentive to carry on the army, as I will put those together, and they will taunt me from the shelf....

So, I dunno about a full army of them made available, Got to say I don't like that idea at all....but a small, starting force could be a good idea, depending on how it is marketed.

Eldramesha wrote:I've spent literally thousands of hours painting, modeling, designing list after list, traveling, gaming, and talking with fellow enthusiasts. This isn't a game; this is a lifestyle. If you can't make that kind of a commitment; go play something that's merely a game.

I agree that it could be a hobby, and not just a game, but really? Wow. Not everyone wants to devote that much effort into just one thing when life offers so much more dude. This is why these sorts of hobbies will always fall on the outskirts of society. Too much devotion on things that don't matter at all.

Also, I like painting orks. Something about painting greenskinned creatures wearing leather and/or rusty armor just appeals to me, but goodness I don't know if I actually want to play this game.

Well, I see Lanrak's point. I personally think they should make "basic" kits that are say 10 marines from the AoBR sprue for cheap, maybe 15$. Or even 20$, really, since watching TV Infomercials has convinced me that 19.95$ is most people's impulse buy number.

Now, I have also seen such packs, with like 5 marines, some IG and I think Orks that are made with that sort of thing in mind. I believe they are intended as filler, but hey, the basic utility goes a few different directions.

I think it makes sense to make stripped down kits for each army, particularly for the bulk troops. The trouble is that would eat into the sales of the more elaborate troop kits, and vice versa. Still, a cheap "Box o' Gaunts" would not be remiss in getting new people into the hobby.

Then again, you can get all sorts of model love off eBay for a fraction of the retail price, if you don't mind old figures that have house paint on them. Which, by the OP, I am guessing you don't.

HI.
Thanks MDG and Wehrkind for getting the jist of my post, and for draging the thread back on topic.
I suppose my main point was trying to lessen the VAST diffrence in percived value for money between the 'starter set minature price' and the 'full price' follow on purchases.

Everyone expects the starter box to be a 'loss leader' and things in the box to be at appx 1/3 to 1/2 normal retail price.
But the very steep increace from starter to full price minatures could be off putting for alot of potential GW gamers.

Some folk just buy build-convert and paint minaures and NEVER game,They just buy the minatures they like the look of, and 'breath life into them'.
And the GW Collectors range expands on these highly detailed (usualy metal) minature ranges available.

Some folk just want to push toy soldiers around the table top, roll dice, and create fantastic battles in thier imagination.
In this respects the minatures are just 'playing pieces ' for the period on the table top.
And display quality multi part -multipose sculptures could be concidered a bit OTT for this practice.

GW can let less well off gamers proxy other manufactureres minatures or Ebay purchases.
Which nets them zero income.

Or they could fill the gap between the starter box priced minatures and the full price minatures, with 'Gaming Range' minatures.
(Not every unit for every race-faction , maybe just some troops and 'iconic ' units from each race-faction.)

I find it odd that GW insist ALL customers want the highest quality and therfore most expencive minatures .
Yet when offered a cheaper 'less adaptable' minatures , GAMERS snap them up by the trukk full.

If GW realise ALL aspects of the hobby are equal , and gamers probably buy the lions share of minatures.It makes sense to provide gamers with a more 'wallet freindly' route to bigger battles .

Most gamers dont realy 'get in to ' an army without playing a few games first.
Alot of people can not afford to spend £250+ to find out this.

Just some thoughts.....
Lanrak.

Given that GW's business model is to make money off the multi-pose plastics, not the rules or the starters, discounting the money-making minis down to starter pricing levels would be corporate suicide.

GW is better off letting the secondhand market do what they will rather than trying to support them. Secondhand plastic sucks - it's a pain to strip, and doesn't strip nearly as easily as metal. It's better to simply buy new plastics.

But if GW cannibalizes their high margin plastics with low-margin "gaming" pieces, that's bad for them.

And the idea that you would need to spend 250 GBP to find out is crazy. AoBR is what you use to find out. Or paper counters. Or you play smaller games. But expecting GW to discount because you're poor?

Hahahaha...

Try that with another retailer and see how far it gets you.

"Sir, I very much like the look of that Rolls Royce. But I'm a bit poor. I can only afford $10,000. As you'd sell a lot more Rolls Royce cars at that price, I think you should just sell it to me at that price."

Strange thing is they did this in 2nd Ed.

The models available in the 2nd Ed Starterbox were packaged as separate boxes (one of the first things I did was buy another plastic Tactical Squad). And while it is true for the Orks that was all they had as far as Boyz and Gretchin, there's only one reason stopping them from releasing the starter models (or some of the starter models) as separate releases.

What's that one reason?

The sprues.



The Battle for Black Lagoon sprues contain random models - Orks and Mairnes and bits of Terminators and Deff Koptaz all on the same sprue. They'd have to make new sprues to separate them out, and the cost of doing that would outweigh the gain in selling 'simple' minis.

And for those who have forgotten - GW do sell a small selection of 'simple' models, like a box of 3 Marines and a box of 5 Guardsmen. Unfortunately the price of these miniatures is so inflated that they're not worth anyone's time of day.

BYE

Not to an established Gamer, no.

But to someone just starting out in the Hobby, £5 is pocket money prices.

Lanrak, do you fancy ressurecting that thread from Warseer about the Entry Point games here on Dakka?

Hi MDG.
Which thread did you have in mind?
The expanding rule set accompanied by boxed sets to expand the minatures at the same time?
Or the seperate rule sets for skirmish-platoon-company level games ?

If you start a thread , ill pitch in as it goes along.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Hi JohnHwangDD.

Thank you for you informative and detailed reply.I assume you have lots of money to throw GWs way.
But spare a thought for those gamers that may not have as much spare cash as you.

Why do you think gamers should pay 2 to 3 times as much for a minature from GW, when the same in game effect could be achived at a fraction of the price?

I know alot of gamers that are put off 40k due to the prohibative cost of collecting an army.

But I suppose this keeps 40k in the hands of the 'more money than sense' demographic GW wants to attract.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Your ideas while interesting will never fly with GW. Remember GW is in business to make money, not to make you cheap armies.

That said, this is why people practice the art of conversion and scratch building. They scrounge for pieces and parts or just make them. There is nothing more satisfying that completing your own conversion or scratch built model.

You want Collector range minuratures? Buy them new in box

You want cheap half painted armies with pieces missing? Buy them off eBay

While I would love two separate rages of minis, from a companies standpoint...it just not cost worthy. If you want cheaper minis that you don't care about appearance then I'm sure you can find a way to find some cheap.