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I just read a yahoo article on how the Fed is possibly going to 0% interest to save the crashing economy.

Nothing I read in the article filled me with dread.

I just realised that hardly anything I've experienced during this "calamity" has bothered me by much, quite the opposite, I'm loving the 2.03 gas I'm putting into my car right now...and the price of coffee creamer just went back down at wal-mart, so I'm SOLID.

Maybe someone will give me a long winded explanation why I should fear for the economy? I'm basically paycheck to paycheck with no investments. Living as cheaply as I can to be comfortable and also support my son. I dont buy ANYTHING unless I have the cash to pick it up, in otherwords, I dont borrow money, from banks OR credit card companies. Gas prices dropping is a nice thing for me...yet everywhere I read...ITS TERRIBLE. I dont get it.

When is the crashing economy gonna start effecting the 'po folks? Those of us that are lower to lower middle class americans without investments and working on a 20 year pension with our federal/city jobs.

Is it really just terrible for the Rich people with tons of property and investments in business? I can understand the feelings of dread they must have and they own the media, so.....

Should this be the time that us poor people sit back and laugh, and vote McCain for more of the SAME?

What if you lost your job.

What if your federal pension got downgraded because taxpayers couldn't afford to pay for it.

Rich people are hurting less than ordinary people. There a guy in Britain called Lakshmi Mittal. He owns the world's biggest steel company. His net worth has lost something like 23 billion pounds thanks to share prices falling, steel prices falling and falling orders for stell.

He's still worth 8 billion though.

I can relate. I've got it easier, because all that's counting on me for support are a couple of cats, and they're not in any danger of me cutting them loose because they keep the rodents away. Sure, I've got no health insurance, but then again, I never have. I figure this way, something that I won't even see coming will signal my end so quickly that I won't be able to do anything about it, which is okay. As for anybody who was betting on a pension, well, that was always just betting.

Kilkrazy wrote:What if you lost your job.

unless the city/government "goes out of business" it wont happen.

What if your federal pension got downgraded because taxpayers couldn't afford to pay for it.

right now im 2 years in on working toward my 20 year pension. Again, whatever.

Rich people are hurting less than ordinary people. There a guy in Britain called Lakshmi Mittal. He owns the world's biggest steel company. His net worth has lost something like 23 billion pounds thanks to share prices falling, steel prices falling and falling orders for stell.

He's still worth 8 billion though.

So you're telling me he's feeling the pinch...just a little bit? Right now this recession is great for me....gas prices down 1/2 and groceries slowly returning to normal. Nope, no pinch for me.

New York nearly went bust in the 70s.

The recession is what it is. Neither candidate will 'fix' it, because it cannot be 'fixed' in the conventional parlay. But, Obama will almost certainly put more money in your pocket, so why would you vote for McCain?

Obama is a liar, and he has been caught going back on his promises before. I do not believe that he will "put more money in my pocket". I don't believe McCain either, for the record. They're both politicians and neither can be trusted to do what they say they will. Obama is the better liar this time around, with the better lies told as a better public speaker, but pleae take off your blinders, the man is no saint and will abandon his campaign promises whenever it is convenient for him to do so.

The fact is that America is broken, and has been since Reagan. The citizens learn from the government, and the government cannot balance its budget. The government has continually overextended itself for the last 30 years, and so have the majority of its citizens.

This is not a sustainable way of existing, unless you want to be the next province of China.

The fix is going to be painful. We have borrowed from our children for far too long for the fix not to be, and realistically, we need to pay them back. Not just pay the interest on our defciet, but actually pay it off.

But we cannot. We expect the government to do so much for us because we have gotten used to them doing so. There are tough choices that need to be made about what to cut, and where to raise taxes, and neither candidate is willing to address either. (I recall how they both waffled around the question in one of the debates, about which of their plans they'd cut because there wasn't enough money to do what they wanted.)

As a society, we need to be tightening our belts and going without for a while, but we're unwilling to do that and are only interested in who will put more money in our pocket right now. Furthermore, we have pressing needs (such as our fading infrastructure) that have been ignored for too long due to corruption and mismanagement.


The full impact of the recession isn't known yet. I know several businesses around me have failed already. My local model train store went under, so I no longer have an easy supply of plasticard and woodland scenics products. Both the local pet stores failed, so I now have to drive further to get filters and food for my wet friends.

Daedshane is probably safe since he indicated working for the government. I'm not. I work for a major corporation, and although we're outside the financial sector, that doesn't mean that people we sell to, or people that our customers sell to aren't affected by this. If our customers go under because their customers went under, guess who is next.

On the surface, if you have no investments, or aren't looking to retire in the short term, this crisis doesn't look so bad. Prices are coming down from their inflated levels, and as long as you stay employed, then you're going to do better. Even with my investments losing over $25k in value, I'm not too worried, because I've got a good 20 years before I need to retire and markets rebound. But my parents, both of whom are between 62 and 67, are being hit hard by this. They got divorced recently, and so neither had enough in their retirement accounts to avoid needing to take higher-risk stocks into their portfolio. They now both face the prospect of having to work well into their 70's to recover from this loss. They're not wealthy, they're not a tale of a billionaire losing paper money, they're real people who worked their whole lives, and got hammered by the timing of this crash.

The fact is that America is broken, and has been since Reagan.

I think you mean Herbert Hoover.



where are you that gas is 2.03? Its still $3 here in Upstate NY.

Deadshane1 wrote:unless the city/government "goes out of business" it wont happen.

My wife is a state employee; she barely dodged the budget cutbacks that the state of TN imposed in the wake of the downturn, and might not dodge the next one if there is one. Some of her coworkers were not so lucky. Unless you're indispensible, you CAN be fired from a government job, if they decide it's outside the budget. Well, I guess you could still work at the job, but you wouldn't be paid.

Redbeard wrote:Obama is a liar, and he has been caught going back on his promises before. I do not believe that he will "put more money in my pocket". I don't believe McCain either, for the record. They're both politicians and neither can be trusted to do what they say they will. Obama is the better liar this time around, with the better lies told as a better public speaker, but pleae take off your blinders, the man is no saint and will abandon his campaign promises whenever it is convenient for him to do so.

Yep, he is a politician, but inevitably the government is composed of people who believe they are serving America's best interests. Even men like Dick Cheney, who inevitably bowed to corporate America, did so because he felt it was in the nation's best interests.

Redbeard wrote:
The fact is that America is broken, and has been since Reagan. The citizens learn from the government, and the government cannot balance its budget. The government has continually overextended itself for the last 30 years, and so have the majority of its citizens.

This is not a sustainable way of existing, unless you want to be the next province of China.

The government cannot balance a budget because the people believe that paying taxes is somehow universally detrimental to the economy. Too many people have had their fill of the Reaganite Kool-Aid.

Redbeard wrote:
The fix is going to be painful. We have borrowed from our children for far too long for the fix not to be, and realistically, we need to pay them back. Not just pay the interest on our defciet, but actually pay it off.

But we cannot. We expect the government to do so much for us because we have gotten used to them doing so. There are tough choices that need to be made about what to cut, and where to raise taxes, and neither candidate is willing to address either. (I recall how they both waffled around the question in one of the debates, about which of their plans they'd cut because there wasn't enough money to do what they wanted.)

In the short-term the deficit is going to get higher. That's fine. Short-term increases in the deficit are acceptable if they center on driving up the taxable income of the electorate. Which reducing health care, energy, and education costs almost certainly will.

Redbeard wrote:
As a society, we need to be tightening our belts and going without for a while, but we're unwilling to do that and are only interested in who will put more money in our pocket right now. Furthermore, we have pressing needs (such as our fading infrastructure) that have been ignored for too long due to corruption and mismanagement.

Dude, 'going without' will not dig us out of an economic hole. Capitalism runs on the desire for excess. We could have 'gone without' and accepted our fate as a colony under English rule, but simple acceptance is no more sustainable than rampant debt spending.

Redbeard wrote:
The full impact of the recession isn't known yet. I know several businesses around me have failed already. My local model train store went under, so I no longer have an easy supply of plasticard and woodland scenics products. Both the local pet stores failed, so I now have to drive further to get filters and food for my wet friends.

Daedshane is probably safe since he indicated working for the government. I'm not. I work for a major corporation, and although we're outside the financial sector, that doesn't mean that people we sell to, or people that our customers sell to aren't affected by this. If our customers go under because their customers went under, guess who is next.

If people start 'tightening the belt' your job is just as likely to be threatened. Indeed, the lack of real wage increases over the last 8 years is likely the primary contributor to the current crisis. Inevitably, people need housing, education, medical care, and transportation. And, if they can't afford those things on their salary, they are going to have to borrow.

Redbeard wrote:
On the surface, if you have no investments, or aren't looking to retire in the short term, this crisis doesn't look so bad. Prices are coming down from their inflated levels, and as long as you stay employed, then you're going to do better. Even with my investments losing over $25k in value, I'm not too worried, because I've got a good 20 years before I need to retire and markets rebound. But my parents, both of whom are between 62 and 67, are being hit hard by this. They got divorced recently, and so neither had enough in their retirement accounts to avoid needing to take higher-risk stocks into their portfolio. They now both face the prospect of having to work well into their 70's to recover from this loss. They're not wealthy, they're not a tale of a billionaire losing paper money, they're real people who worked their whole lives, and got hammered by the timing of this crash.

Yep, the crisis hit a lot of people. And it will be considerably worse for the elderly than it will be for the rest of us. But simply giving in and accepting the world as it is will not fix the problem.

The "recession" isn't really hurting the military either as far as getting a paycheck goes. We get paid every two weeks regardless. The only problem is that the paycheck doesn't go that far. A lot of folks are doing the raining bills game right now. (Throwing the bills in the air and the ones that land on the table get paid.)

My wife started her own business to help offest the cost of a large family (self inflicted I know but a blessing none the less).

There has been one thing that has come from the Democrats recenlty that made me blink. Recently, Barney Frank, said that they would fund some of the new "save America programs" by cutting the military budget by 25%. All that means is that we are already at lower end cap strength right now trying to pay for new weapon systems. So what will the service do? It'll look to cut more manning in order to save weapons systems. So shades of the early '90s all over again.

It'll be "fight harder with less do more with less" all over again. Guys like me near retirement age will probably get asked/forced to retire early. Folks with medical issues that aren't worldwide qualified will get released from the military or have to push themselves to really show they want to stay in the service.

The only problem I have with Mr. Frank's idea is that we'll still be all over the globe fighting to put out every little fire. It'll be the Clinton years again.

Okay...I'm off the soapbox

The UK also is feeling the pinch in terms of armed forces, especially the kind of troops who are needed for the fighting we do now -- infantry, medium vehicles, helicopters, medics and so on.

One answer is to spend less on things like Eurofighter and more on the stuff that is actually needed.

dogma wrote: Obama will almost certainly put more money in your pocket...

Funny... I was under the impression that the Federal Government produced NOTHING and was fueled by the collection of taxes from it's Citizens.

Just remember boys and girls, the Government can give you NOTHING. It takes from someone else and transfers to you. At the point of a gun.

There are quite a few military programs that should most definitely go on the chopping block. The Virginia Class of nuclear attack submarines is beyond unnecessary. Our ABM program takes up entirely too much of the budget; especially given the destabilizing nature of actual system installation. The V-22 was also a colossal waste of money as it is woefully incapable of the hot insertions it was designed to facilitate. At the same time, information systems like FCS are massively under-funded.

All this as our global network of bases grows farther, and farther beyond a reasonable deployment footprint.

It's almost like the Cold War never really ended.

The Green Git wrote:

dogma wrote: Obama will almost certainly put more money in your pocket...

Funny... I was under the impression that the Federal Government produced NOTHING and was fueled by the collection of taxes from it's Citizens.

Just remember boys and girls, the Government can give you NOTHING. It takes from someone else and transfers to you. At the point of a gun.

Well, actually, they produce government. You know, that thing which serves as a balance against the authority of the economic elite, and fundamentally separates us from Feudal society.

What are you? Some kind of Lobster-back Royalist?

He's still worth 8 billion though.

then i see this as justice
he had too much money.
same as all footballers.

People who use CAPTITALS to emphasise a point make me grin. It's like I'll believe silly arguments if you just make them with enough emphasis.

I tend to agree that it's the elderly that will be hit worst by all of this. In Ireland the government are cutting health, education, pensions and care for the mentally disabled.
So the sick, the young, the old and the mentally disabled.
Pretty freakin' bad.

lord_sutekh wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:unless the city/government "goes out of business" it wont happen.

My wife is a state employee; she barely dodged the budget cutbacks that the state of TN imposed in the wake of the downturn, and might not dodge the next one if there is one. Some of her coworkers were not so lucky. Unless you're indispensible, you CAN be fired from a government job, if they decide it's outside the budget. Well, I guess you could still work at the job, but you wouldn't be paid.

I highly doubt I'll have a problem. Law Enforcement is ALWAYS needed, they've got job security. Not so much with secretaries that work for the treasury or sanitation or some such nonsense.

where are you that gas is 2.03? Its still $3 here in Upstate NY.

Just hit 1.99 here in Virginia Beach, VA this morning.

Yea, I'm pretty much loving this recession.

dogma wrote:There are quite a few military programs that should most definitely go on the chopping block. The Virginia Class of nuclear attack submarines is beyond unnecessary. Our ABM program takes up entirely too much of the budget; especially given the destabilizing nature of actual system installation. The V-22 was also a colossal waste of money as it is woefully incapable of the hot insertions it was designed to facilitate. At the same time, information systems like FCS are massively under-funded.

All this as our global network of bases grows farther, and farther beyond a reasonable deployment footprint.

It's almost like the Cold War never really ended.

Dogma...as an old Cold War guy I can honestly say we won that one. But recent events in Russia with Putin making it a priority for the Russian armed forces to get back the world prescence again there could very well be a new Cold War. Ossetia and Ingusetia (sic) are just the beginning. They even get a new Black Sea port for the Black Sea fleet out of that one. Libya recently accepted a deal to give them a warm water naval base. Venezuala is in talks to acquire arms and possibly base Russian forces as well as the Cubans looking at reestablishing close military ties. The Mexicans buy weapon systems from the Russians... so possible expansion is there as well. They have actually pumped an additional 25% of their GDP into their military budget. The country may be in dire straits but they are pushing to streamline and modernize their military mas pronto.

We on the other hand pour vast amounts of money into weapon systems that will help us but the cost means that we will have so few of said systems that our enemies can counter them. Mass produced almost-as-good-as-crap can overcome quality eventually. Stalin said "quantity is a quality all it's own." If we have 1 F-22 and go up against a x10 Russian modified Flankers and kill them at a 5 - 1 ratio we'll still run out of planes/pilots quicker than they will. I won't even get into the Chinese..that looks even worse.

sorry, but this does make me laugh at americans. (no offence)

you complain about price of gas, yet here its roughly £5 a gallon ($10) so its not that bad for you yet

Deadshane1 wrote:
I highly doubt I'll have a problem. Law Enforcement is ALWAYS needed, they've got job security. Not so much with secretaries that work for the treasury or sanitation or some such nonsense.

where are you that gas is 2.03? Its still $3 here in Upstate NY.

Just hit 1.99 here in Virginia Beach, VA this morning.

Yea, I'm pretty much loving this recession.

Deadshane1: Unless you live in an ultra-lib area. California towns are reportedly looking to making ends meet by cutting law enforcement budgets. So it's going to be an even thinner blue line protecting Joe Public.

Yeah americans complaining about prices is always rich.
But they don't have a comparison usually, it's rare that we talk about it.

Deadshane1 wrote:I highly doubt I'll have a problem. Law Enforcement is ALWAYS needed, they've got job security. Not so much with secretaries that work for the treasury or sanitation or some such nonsense.

Actually, she's a director in one of the departments at MTSU; kinda high up the food chain.

lord_sutekh wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:I highly doubt I'll have a problem. Law Enforcement is ALWAYS needed, they've got job security. Not so much with secretaries that work for the treasury or sanitation or some such nonsense.

Actually, she's a director in one of the departments at MTSU; kinda high up the food chain.

Oh, I'm not trying to say she's some peon. I was simply trying to point out that some gov't jobs would most likely be more prone to layoff's and such than others.

Hope I didnt offend.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:

Dogma...as an old Cold War guy I can honestly say we won that one. But recent events in Russia with Putin making it a piority for the Russian armed forces to get back the world prescence again there could very well be a new Cold War. Ossetia and Ingusetia (sic) are just the beginning. They even get a new Black Sea port for the Black Sea fleet out of that one. Libya recently accepted a deal to give them a warm water naval base. Venezuala is in talks to acquire arms and possibly base Russian forces as well as the Cubans looking at reestablishing close military ties. The Mexicans buy weapon systems from the Russians... so possible expansion is there as well. They have actually pumped an additional 25% of their GDP into their economy. The country may be in dire straits but they are pushing to streamline and modernize their military mas pronto.

Oh, the Cold War certainly ended, and we certainly won it. However, the Bush administration and its woefully inept management of the nation is pretty much a direct result of the Cold War goon squad taking on a leadership role in the government. Look up the 'Project for the New American Century'. They're a think-tank founded by Cheney and crew. Put out a couple books during the Clinton years. Scary stuff based on some extremely flawed assumptions; particularly in the area of information control.

Anyway, I think you overestimate the Russian military. Most of their hardware is 15-20 years old and in a woeful state of disrepair. This isn't the inception of another Cold War. Vlad may be a bellicose kind of guy, but he understands that tangible power projections are a losing game; inevitably it was a rigidly deterministic conception of security which killed the USSR.

Sure, there was Georgia, but he was almost completely certain that there would be no Western backlash. Why? Because the West had been overlooking Georgian brutality in South Ossetia for years. They figured that, so long as the Georgians could keep their country together, there was no reason to get involved. After all, permitting the secession of a domestic province sets a dangerous precedent with regard to the many similar situations is Eastern Europe. So, when it looked like Georgia was falling apart, the Russians interceded as a means of sending a message to their own dissident provinces. We let them do it because it saved us the trouble.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:
We on the other hand pour vast amounts of money into weapon systems that will help us but the cost means that we will have so few of said systems that our enemies can counter them. Mass produced almost-as-good-as-crap can overcome quality eventually. Stalin said "quantity is a quality all it's own." If we have 1 F-22 and go up against a x10 Russian modified Flankers and kill them at a 5 - 1 ratio we'll still run out of planes/pilots quicker than they will. I won't even get into the Chinese..that looks even worse.

We really don't have a choice. You can't fight a war of numbers with a population of 370 million. That's what things like FCS are designed to counter. Basically, our platforms will nominally be 1-2 generation ahead of anything else in the world. This just about guarantees a kill ratio in the range of 10-1. The trick is capitalizing on this discrepancy through integrated sensor systems that allow for the application of dynamic fire support through battle-space transparency. Assuming this kind of integrated combat-net becomes reality we could be looking at ratios more akin to 30-1. And that doesn't even factor in things like advanced UAVs, edge-of-horizon intercept weapons, and other incredible force multipliers.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:They have actually pumped an additional 25% of their GDP into their economy.

What does this sentence mean? It's like saying we pumped 25% of our economy into our economy.

JD21290 wrote:sorry, but this does make me laugh at americans. (no offence)

you complain about price of gas, yet here its roughly £5 a gallon ($10) so its not that bad for you yet

It is relative. Mass transit is better in Europe, or in comparison to many places in the US, it actually exists in Europe. Your price is been $10, but you are saying that if in a short period if it jumped to $20 a gallon you wouldn't be complaining? It isn't a fair comparison because it only looks at just a single number set and nothing else, such as culture, civil structuring, and cost of living. We are most certainly allowed to be upset.

Kilkrazy wrote:New York nearly went bust in the 70s.

Louisiana's been bankrupt for longer than that and New Orleans even longer than that. Suing the government(city or state) puts you on a 5 year waiting list(at least) for your settlement.

Getting back to the first post, I've seen some direct examples of the economy going south and hurting lower class workers. While I'm doing ok, all my buddies lost their jobs at the factory we work at. I made it through the cuts, they did not. We make beds so the blow to the housing market has hurt. Also, a bed being a some what big price item (500-1,000) most people are making do with the ones they have. We make about 9.00-11.00 dollars an hour so we're not talking the better 15.00-20.00 dollar factory crowd.

sebster wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:They have actually pumped an additional 25% of their GDP into their economy.

What does this sentence mean? It's like saying we pumped 25% of our economy into our economy.

Sebster - That would be Russians increased their military budget with an additional 25% of the GDP.