Baltimore GT 2008 - Friday event results: Doubles Tournaments and 'Ard Boyz Finals

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**Chris Gohlinghorst**

Find it all here!

**yakface**

Thanks Chris.

For the doubles tournament, is there any way we can find out what players made up these winning teams or what armies they used?

**thehod**

Congrats to Gareth Hunt and another event won by the Wrecking Crew.

**Aldonis**

Awesome! Way to go Gareth!

go WC!

**chiermd**

Gareth was Chaos Daemons. The victory would be good if he didnt have to cheat for it. Deploying all of your daemons on turn one and not rolling for scatter is blatant cheating. The good word goes is that he cheated a Dark Eldar player who didnt know Chaos Daemons rules on game 2, but when it was caught the game was already over. He deep struck the entire army all on turn one and arranged his daemons around Fateweaver exactly 6 inches away without ever rolling for scatter. Fateweaver suffered 2 wounds also and he didnt roll to see if he disappeared. He told the Dark Eldar player that because the scenario was Dawn of War he could do this and that he ran it by the judge which the judge vehemently denied. So overall congrats man great job cheating your way to victory.

**Darkness**

@chiermd

Leveling accusations of cheating is a tall order. Gareth is a personal friend and has NEVER in all the years I have known tried so much as the smallest cheat.

Were you the DE player? If not have him post. I'm sure Gareth will be saying his side.

**yakface**

chiermd wrote:Gareth was Chaos Daemons. The victory would be good if he didnt have to cheat for it. Deploying all of your daemons on turn one and not rolling for scatter is blatant cheating. The good word goes is that he cheated a Dark Eldar player who didnt know Chaos Daemons rules on game 2, but when it was caught the game was already over. He deep struck the entire army all on turn one and arranged his daemons around Fateweaver exactly 6 inches away without ever rolling for scatter. Fateweaver suffered 2 wounds also and he didnt roll to see if he disappeared. He told the Dark Eldar player that because the scenario was Dawn of War he could do this and that he ran it by the judge which the judge vehemently denied. So overall congrats man great job cheating your way to victory.

Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading hearsay.

**WhiteDevil**

Ah. I love Gamer gossip.

Please allow me to address your issues chiermd.

I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.

1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).

2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.

3. I rolled for EVERY moral check EVERY time the fateweaver took a wound. I explained exactly how the fateweaver worked at the beginning of my game. I also insisted that if my opponent had any questions at all, at any time, to please ask me. I declared I was taking a morale check every time I suffered a wound. If he forgot my earlier explanation and thought I was taking a normal morale check for my fearless unit, then that is an unfortunate mistake on his part. I went to every length I could to make sure he understood my army.

4. My opponent came back after asking a DIFFERENT judge about the issue, who apparently ruled differently. Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.

So please, before jumping on the bandwagon of "Gamer Gossip", or hoping on the forums looking to bad mouth me, please just address any concerns you have to me personally, and I'd gladly settle them for you.

Have a nice night.

-Gareth-

**Railguns**

yakface wrote:

Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading heresy.

Fixed your typo.

But seriously, congrats to all.

**calltoarms**

yakface wrote:

Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading hearsay.

I love when non lawyers try to use lawyer terms.

I was there, next to the game as it took place. I stayed out of it, didn't chime in. I can't believe the judge ruled that way, personally disagree with it, and think the judging was, on par, completely foolish throughout the event. At one call, the rulebook, yes, a direct quote, overruled a rule that a judge made (That you could choose not to attack with special weapons). That said, it was a judging call. Judge calls trump. Now, whether that is something that SHOULD have gone to the judge, that's a different question, as we all know codex rules trump rulebook. Wrecking Crew, you have a reputation of being solid gamers, but a bit fuzzy on rules. I've played you guys three times, however, and ALWAYS had a good experience.

Now, is anyone else talking, though, about how (seriously), the third round was barely more then an hour, and we found out we had shortened time after 20 minutes? This was a horribly run tournament (starting way late, different times for each round, terrible judging), all in all, typical GW. I have to be honest, I will not be traveling to another GW event. Period. The independents (Necronomicon, Adepticon, etc.), do it far better.

Congrats Garett, on showing everyone how to win with demons.

Not sure anyone saw THAT move coming.

N

**WhiteDevil**

@calltoarms: Sorry you also had a judging issue. Your's was the "turning off power-fists" thing right?

Yea, the time was pretty odd. Due to the terrain truck being late we started late, and they decided to shorten the rounds. Dunno how much they shortened it by, but it felt like 45mins-1 hour. I am a member of the Wrecking Crew, but I don't really travel to any national events like my fellow gamers. As for any of my fellow members being "fuzzy" on the rules, it IS a new edition. It seems the majority of people are still a little "fuzzy" when it comes to certain areas.

Thanks for the congrats everyone.

**Valhallan42nd**

Congrats, Gareth. I hope you enjoy your Thunderhammer.

**Chris Gohlinghorst**

yakface wrote:
Thanks Chris.

For the doubles tournament, is there any way we can find out what players made up these winning teams or what armies they used?

For doubles, we only register team names. I'll be posting pictures of the people who made up the team this evening on our blog, and we should (together) be able to discern which guys made-up which teams as, at the end of the day our overall gaming community is small and for the most part just about everyone knows everyone along the way. I haven't memorized every name for every face, but through the power of the community we should be able to identify and know someone that knows them that might be able to pass on the list they used, right?

**Chris Gohlinghorst**

calltoarms wrote:
yakface wrote:

Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading hearsay.

I love when non lawyers try to use lawyer terms.

I was there, next to the game as it took place. I stayed out of it, didn't chime in. I can't believe the judge ruled that way, personally disagree with it, and think the judging was, on par, completely foolish throughout the event. At one call, the rulebook, yes, a direct quote, overruled a rule that a judge made (That you could choose not to attack with special weapons). That said, it was a judging call. Judge calls trump. Now, whether that is something that SHOULD have gone to the judge, that's a different question, as we all know codex rules trump rulebook. Wrecking Crew, you have a reputation of being solid gamers, but a bit fuzzy on rules. I've played you guys three times, however, and ALWAYS had a good experience.

Now, is anyone else talking, though, about how (seriously), the third round was barely more then an hour, and we found out we had shortened time after 20 minutes? This was a horribly run tournament (starting way late, different times for each round, terrible judging), all in all, typical GW. I have to be honest, I will not be traveling to another GW event. Period. The independents (Necronomicon, Adepticon, etc.), do it far better.

Congrats Garett, on showing everyone how to win with demons. Not sure anyone saw THAT move coming.

N

Hi all,

So everyone is on the same page in this thread, the last round of the 'Ard Boyz ran from 8:15pm to 10:15pm (two hours, not one). Rounds 1 and 2 did have the full 2.5 hours to play as well at the 1/2 hour breaks in between. So timings were consistent up to round 3 (besides being forced to start later than the published 1:00pm). We did have to shave 1/2 hour from the final round playing time due to forces well beyond our control, but made the best of the situation at hand. Had any other option been available to ensure that last 30 minutes could have been played, we would have made it happen.

Call to Arms, I would be interested to learn what nationally run GW tournaments in the past two years were horribly run? Or are you referring to local events?

**Chris Gohlinghorst**

WhiteDevil wrote: Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.

-Gareth-

Hi Gareth,

If you have more specific information to impart, or could pass the individuals that have had inconsistent rulings onto me I'd greatly appreciate their feedback. We've made sure, especially for 40K to have the same core team of rules judges at every single GT for the past two years to maintain consistency. If we're not achieving that, than we'll alter what's needed to rectify the situation. However, if the individuals who are receiving inconsistent rulings don't contact us, we cannot be aware of and fix the problem if it exists.

Again, congratulations on your win!

**WhiteDevil**

Hi Gareth,

If you have more specific information to impart, or could pass the individuals that have had inconsistent rulings onto me I'd greatly appreciate their feedback. We've made sure, especially for 40K to have the same core team of rules udges at every single GT for the past two years to maintain consistency. If we're not achieving that, than we'll alter what's needed to rectify the situation. However, if the individuals who are receiving inconsistent rulings don't contact us, we cannot be aware of and fix the problem if it exists.

Again, congratulations on your win!

Well, as I said, it's just what I've been told. I cannot prove it's validity (because I don't frequent the circuit myself, poor college student here), which is why I can just impart second hand knowledge. Having many friends who are always attending national events (I'm sure others do too), I always here about this judges ruling or that judges ruling. I'm sure others hear all about it to. Not just me and calltoarms here. Though the silliest one I was told was from a close friend in the circuit last year, I believe it was at the Chicago GT. He was told by a judge that he could not use his "veil of time" psychic power, because "the game would be more fun" if he didn't. Again, I didn't, and am not saying it is a frequent thing, just that it seems frequent to hear about it.

Thanks for the congratulations. Personally I had a lot of fun in the Ard Boyz finals both this year and last. Thanks for putting on a great event! My friends and I had a great time!

EDIT: spelling...

**Chris Gohlinghorst**

Thanks for the quick reply. As the Wrecking Crew is a very active club at our events (and this obviously goes for all participants in the event), please make sure if something concrete does come up that they contact someone on the community team (we're very available). We want to correct and better those items that are within our realm of control.

**AgeOfEgos**

WhiteDevil wrote:@calltoarms: Sorry you also had a judging issue. Your's was the "turning off power-fists" thing right?

Yea, the time was pretty odd. Due to the terrain truck being late we started late, and they decided to shorten the rounds. Dunno how much they shortened it by, but it felt like 45mins-1 hour. I am a member of the Wrecking Crew, but I don't really travel to any national events like my fellow gamers. As for any of my fellow members being "fuzzy" on the rules, it IS a new edition. It seems the majority of people are still a little "fuzzy" when it comes to certain areas.

Thanks for the congrats everyone.

Demon win~~~ Mind posting your general list? Weaver + Horrors/Letters? Gratz on the win.

**calltoarms**

N

**WhiteDevil**

Thanks for the quick reply. As the Wrecking Crew is a very active club at our events (and this obviously goes for all participants in the event), please make sure if something concrete does come up that they contact someone on the community team (we're very available). We want to correct and better those items that are within our realm of control.

I will be sure to do so. It's great to see active concern and you guys stiving to always make things better for all involved. You will unfortunately always have some malcontents, though that's the nature of the beast. We gamers are an ornery lot after all. As far as I'm concerned, keep up the good work!

Demon win~~~ Mind posting your general list? Weaver + Horrors/Letters? Gratz on the win.

Thanks. The core of the list is Fateweaver + Crushers. I really just added on to my normal tournament list. I converted the crushers into "counts as" bloodcrushers riding dread-steeds (think warcraft). 5 people at the finals, and 3 at the semis said they were going to steal my idea... I guess it's a compliment?

**sabote**

Chris Gohlinghorst wrote:
calltoarms wrote:
yakface wrote:

Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading hearsay.

I love when non lawyers try to use lawyer terms.

I was there, next to the game as it took place. I stayed out of it, didn't chime in. I can't believe the judge ruled that way, personally disagree with it, and think the judging was, on par, completely foolish throughout the event. At one call, the rulebook, yes, a direct quote, overruled a rule that a judge made (That you could choose not to attack with special weapons). That said, it was a judging call. Judge calls trump. Now, whether that is something that SHOULD have gone to the judge, that's a different question, as we all know codex rules trump rulebook. Wrecking Crew, you have a reputation of being solid gamers, but a bit fuzzy on rules. I've played you guys three times, however, and ALWAYS had a good experience.

Now, is anyone else talking, though, about how (seriously), the third round was barely more then an hour, and we found out we had shortened time after 20 minutes? This was a horribly run tournament (starting way late, different times for each round, terrible judging), all in all, typical GW. I have to be honest, I will not be traveling to another GW event. Period. The independents (Necronomicon, Adepticon, etc.), do it far better.

Congrats Garett, on showing everyone how to win with demons. Not sure anyone saw THAT move coming.

N

Hi all,

So everyone is on the same page in this thread, the last round of the 'Ard Boyz ran from 8:15pm to 10:15pm (two hours, not one). Rounds 1 and 2 did have the full 2.5 hours to play as well at the 1/2 hour breaks in between. So timings were consistent up to round 3 (besides being forced to start later than the published 1:00pm). We did have to shave 1/2 hour from the final round playing time due to forces well beyond our control, but made the best of the situation at hand. Had any other option been available to ensure that last 30 minutes could have been played, we would have made it happen.

Call to Arms, I would be interested to learn what nationally run GW tournaments in the past two years were horribly run? Or are you referring to local events?

Chris-I think your timing is slightly off. I am with Call to Armos on this topic. Maybe it was the intent to have the game run 2 hours but I know in my case we did not have 2 hours of gaming. After deciding to keep my entire army in reserve for the 3rd game the first 2 turns went extremely fast. All in all my opponent and I only finished 4 turns and we had to rush the 4th turn. We had alot of hth but we were not playing slow and our armies were not hoard armies. The shortened time made a big impact in the result of our game. I was pretty near the last gamer outside the staff that left the building becuase it took me a while to pack up and I was leaving out the door right around 10:15 or a few minutes after at most. So I think saying dice down at 10:15 is not quite correct. My opponent checked his time and said we had only been playing for about 1:40 min maybe 1:45.

I am sure there are many that may not have minded the time being shortened and everyone knows the trucks showed up late. But when I pay over $600 for an event ( air, hotel, car,food) there is an expectation that this event will allow me to play the full amount of time. By starting at 12:00pm and having the place close up at 10:00pm does not allow a whole lot of leeway for any potential problems. Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.

I enjoyed the players in all my games but left the overall venue pretty pissed about the tourney because of that 3rd round.

Congrats to the winner

**Chris Gohlinghorst**

calltoarms wrote:1. Were you honestly there? They didn't post pairings until 8:45. I was at a judges table at 8:44 when they posted third round pairings. They ended it at 10, as they were getting kicked out at 10:30. I called the judge over when they made the time announcement, he confessed to the error, and stated they appealed for more time, didn't get it, so had to shorten the third round.

Indeed, I was there coordinating the show. To be sure, I checked the time stamps on the files, and the final save and print of the round two file is 8:12. The final save and sort on round three is 10:19 (only about 6 games out of the 20 games at the end of round 3 were unscored when dice down was called at 10:15pm). The timestamp on my cell as we called security to lock-up the hall as we walked out with the players after the awards ceremony was 10:40.

calltoarms wrote:
2. For starters, Pick any games day RTT. They're horribly run. Each of them. Especially the atlanta ones before they were nixed.

The RTTs at previous Games Days have proven to be not at the caliber they should be (a whole separate issues of logistical shenanigans) and are being dealt with accordingly for 2009.

Are there other National GW-run tournaments you'd like to cite in the past two years that you felt were sub-par (I'll definitely look into those situations)?

edit: multiquote is my bane.

**Chris Gohlinghorst**

sabote wrote:By starting at 12:00pm and having the place close up at 10:00pm does not allow a whole lot of leeway for any potential problems.

We usually factor in an extra 5-6 hours in the morning to take care of materials issues to allow for any mishaps. This particular case happened to go beyond the... extraordinary and usual contingency.

sabote wrote:Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.

We've had the convention center amend future contracts this morning to include extending closing time should trucks arrive as grossly late as they did this time. Doesn't fix this instance, but we've learned and adjusted for future events.

**sabote**

Chris Gohlinghorst wrote:
sabote wrote:Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.

We've had the convention center amend future contracts this morning to include extending closing time should trucks arrive as grossly late as they did this time. Doesn't fix this instance, but we've learned and adjusted for future events.

At the end of the day thats all I could ask. Thanks for letting us know and getting it fixed for the future.

**calltoarms**

sabote wrote:Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.

We've had the convention center amend future contracts this morning to include extending closing time should trucks arrive as grossly late as they did this time. Doesn't fix this instance, but we've learned and adjusted for future events.

**Chris Gohlinghorst**

calltoarms wrote:
Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.

We've had the convention center amend future contracts this morning to include extending closing time should trucks arrive as grossly late as they did this time. Doesn't fix this instance, but we've learned and adjusted for future events.

Glad I'm not the only one with issues using the quotes. Smart move with the K's. In fairness to you though, I've been to about 40 or so conventions related to 40k, and this one, for whatever reason, seemed to be the most strict on EVERYTHING.

Chris, I really do appreciate your viewing of the forums, and interest in the thoughts expressed here. This is a large change from the past, and it really passes on the message that GW actually does care about gamer's thoughts, etc. Indeed, the regular posting and viewing by GW is what actually brought me out of lurking and posting. Sincerely, I appreciate it. (you're still wrong about the start times though, sorry. My opponent and everyone on our row shared a few coments when the "45 minute" mark was announced. I got away spending less then $600, but am still a bit irritated a day later that I paid what I did for such a horribly timed event. You could have at least nixed a couple of breaks, fought to amend the contract at time of event and make trucking company indemnify you for damages, etc..) (Oh, and how did the doubles tournaments start and finish before ard boys? I can respect if it's a they paid $ for the event and we didn't, but am just curious).

Interesting statement about the games day RTT. I hate to see them pulled, but they were flawed in some many ways. Can you give any specifics as to what you mean by logistical issues? As to other events that I"ve been to, honestly, outside of the games days, I can only cite handful of GT's. They were quite a while back (years, back in the day when you had them at Charlotte and Atlanta, for instance), so I'm not sure my comments on them are valid these days.

I can tell you this though, you must, to have respectibility, have some form of consistent and reasonable judgining, as well as a committment to the timing of the event. Adepticon seems to rule this areas with their detailed FAQ before hand (putting GW's to shame), their knowledge of the rules at their events, and the ability to take the questions they are asked at each event, mull them over afterwards, and add to their FAQ (even admitting when they were wrong). I'm not a fan of Magic (WOTC), but what they've done on a national/international stage with their events, touranments, conventions puts us to shame. Model what you do after them/the guys from adepticon, and a few others, and you'll greatly improve your events.

The trucking company will know the full wrath...

The doubles games only clock in at two hours each (doubles gaming kicked off about 5 minutes after I called out the first round pairings for 'Ard Boyz - though most of the doubles teams were set-up at their tables before the 'Ard Boyz kicked off, so it definitely looked like they started first).

The logistical shenanigans for Games Day RTTs is multi-factored (and I gotta be up for the GT in 5 hours, so I'll save that topic for a later round).

Minus this 'Ard Boyz foul, the past two year's of GTs have been on the money on the logistical side (timing, scoring, etc). We've (finally, and still took far too long) nailed that side of things. Now that processes are in place to keep those items handled, bringing more consistency to the rules side is the next target in our sites.

I again, apologize to all the 'Ard Boyz participants on the late start and shortened third round. Barring natural disasters on the day (and I'll tell you all up front they won't give me a budget for those contingencies...) next year we'll have all the timing flexibility we need.

edit: OK, now the single quote is jinxed...

**Black Blow Fly**

congrats white devil! You rawked their world!

G

**olympia**

WhiteDevil wrote:Ah. I love Gamer gossip.

Please allow me to address your issues chiermd.

I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.

1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war.

-Gareth-

You thought that really? Because dawn of war allows you to deploy two troops and one HQ??? Dawn of War allows DS turn 1? Great news.

**Hulksmash**

Come on, not deploy. I'm assuming he means that all but two troops and one hq can start on the table (i.e. if a troop unit had heavy weapons you definitely wanted to shoot) you start them on the table and everything else moves in on your first turn. Now personally the codex rule trumps and he still should have had to deepstrike reserve roll the rest of his army based on the fact that he has special deployment rules but if they judged it differently at the event then hey it happens. I personally at that level would have had 2-3 judges all talk about it and then I would have to accept the judging

**Ultramar Custodian**

I seem to be missing something, because I don't quite understand the controversy.

Dawn of War scenario doesn't have anything to do with Daemon deployment. Daemons always Deep Strike and can do so on turn 1.

regardless of scenario.

What exactly did the judge say that allowed Gareth to do anything that was out of the ordinary?