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I'm having trouble arguing with this fellow. He is very stuck in the GW Hobby mentality. Here is his post. He makes some good points. I'm going to start playing Warmachine regardless, but I need to be able to properly rebut him in order to drum up enthusiasm.

Just telling you my experience with the game. I have played many different miniatures games in the past, but one thing has always stayed constant. You could always find a game of 40k almost anywhere in the country and at the most convienient times. All other games are a niche market at best. 40k is the king of the niche market. I want to play reguarly against a variety of opponents which means I play 40k, for better or worse. The only other game that approaches 40k level of participation in the miniatures game community as a whole is Warhammer Fantasy. Hence I have a fantasy army but I just am not as motivated to put it together because no one plays it reguarly. 40K allows me to play a game most weekends. Warmachine not so much. I only caution you because it sucks to waste money on a game that no one plays reguarly.

Miniature games I have wasted money on that no one plays in the area:
- Confrontation: Oh lots of money on this game, but like many others it died.
- Warmachine: My group in Tampa was playing the hell out of it, then it got old and died.
- Flames of War: Never could find anyone that was close by to play. Plus it's like 40k with smaller people. Now NATO is up at the Tower playing Flames of War, but they are only up there on Thursdays to play which doesn't work for my schedule. Plus I sold it all to buy my Space Marines.
- Dark Age: OK I didn't waste that must money on it, but still it sits on the shelf. Plus it's a skirmish game so a very small outlay of cash for the figs in total.
- Infinity: Neat system, but no one played aside from my group in Tampa but like all things I think it died after I left.
- DBA: Still have some things I have not painted for this, but it sits waiting for opponents to play against.
- 100 Kingdoms: Had Roman Legionaire gorillas. I had to have it but no one played so I bought to armies to try and get people to play against. Yes they now gather dust with many other miniatures.

Out of all the miniature games I have played, 40K is the only one that people play reguarly. If you have people who are going to play with you then go for it. But once that small group stops being interested you are out of luck and have a lot of miniatures that will gather dust. I am just trying to say no to dusty miniatures. But as my list of failed games I played can atest to I have a miniature buying habit and it's a bad one. Now I am trying to only buy miniatures I know will see long term use.

You don't rebut because he's right.

I have also witnessed games, both miniature based and CCG's come and go just as he explains.

If you want to play Warmachine go for it. Why do you need to convince anyone else?

If you want to create enthusiasm give game demo's. Provide each player with all that they need to play and if they like it, eventually they'll buy their own stuff.

to a certain degree, he's right--40k is playable in most regions more so than other games, and requires much less investment by the individual, or rather, you 'only' have to invest in your own army and show up to most stores to find opponents. Financially, the outlay for 40k is such that it's hard to encourage people to spend on another system with 'incompatible' figures.

Most of the other games he listed require more of an effort on the part of the hobbyist to participate: painting up two forces and running events, going to conventions, etc. If your goal is to have games to play with your friends, you have to make it worth their while.

I'm fortunate in that I have some regular opponents. What area do you game in?

I guess I'm not one to spend my time playing a game I don't enjoy regardless of the
people playing/not playing in the area. I don't make time to play every weekend, so
I don't have to factor that in. Instead, I make arrangements to game with known players
in the area rather than rely on pickup games at the shop.

It's all very furtive, like truck stops after dark. /cough

The greater metro Atlanta area. Mainly just north of Atlanta in the Lawrenceville/Suwanee area. There is a group of people who play on Thursdays at the FLGS I play at too though. They just play on Thursday and I'm more of a Friday/Saturday/Sunday type of guy. The store owner is trying to set up organized Warmachine play on Sunday though so maybe I can help enthusiasm levels with that in mind.

http://www.privateerpressforums.com/index.php?showtopic=3255

Fair warning: posts on this forum go back a ways.

the problem is that GW cornered the market early on Fantasy / Sci-Fi Games, so now you have millions of people that know how to play one game and have all the models for that game at hand.... new people to the scene see the large population of war-gamers playing 40k and assume it must be the best so they join in and perpetuate the situation.

This happen in the CCG world too, Magic came out and took a huge share, other games tried to budge in (spellfire, starwars, wyvern, L5R, overpower, ect.) the only thing that is going to break GW dominance is a game that is targeted to a different demographic. Take the pokemon card game for instance it broke into a new market share by targeting players as young as 5 and 6, it would still be huge if yu-gi-oh take over its demo graphic (mostly because of the popularity of its TV show )

So what do we learn from all of this? your friend is right. But if you enjoy a game you can play it with a group of friends that also enjoy the same game and have a great time, just don't expect to change the way of the world. I for one play MtG on a incredibly high level, I don't enjoy it all to much because the game system is stale overly complicated in some areas and to simplistic in others, I much prefer Legends of the Five Rings (L5R) so I play both, I play MtG because of their huge market share and the ability to find a tournament anywhere, and I use the profit from the tournament to buy L5R and play with my brother.

Sorry about the rant... Long story short:

play what you like, but except the fact that humans are a herd animal and will be attracted to the game that has the most followers.

Your avatar really illustrates your rant, Clthomps.

It's a pessimistic but logical argument. However, if we never motivate for a new game, we'll never get a new game.

As long as you can find a regular group in the area, start with the battle box. You can get a nice competitive force going with relatively small monetary and time investments, compared to GW games. Worst case scenario? You build a force, play a bunch of games, and then go back to GW when the group breaks up. You're out $50 and the time spent painting.

Seriously I don't see this as very much of a problem.

My local area had mostly 40k and WHFB. I wanted to start playing WM/Hordes so I looked into it and there's a Shop 40 minutes away that has a league night and the occasional tournament. I picked up some stuff from there and started going on their league night.

Slowly a lot of my friends who played GW started PP games (they saw the same problem with GW games as I did). Also a local shop opened up a lot closer to all of us which has helped our little group grow, but even if that shut down we could still go to the other shop and play at our houses like usual.

Basically, you can grow your own community or join the probably already existing small community in your area that plays it.

Honestly to get 500 Points of WM it's ~$150 or less. To get 750 it starts getting more expensive depending on what you want to add, but you can keep it moderately cheap compared to a GW army. Remember, the buy-in for PP games is really cheap, but they get you in the long run because you end up wanting to buy more and more as you get more into the game (just to change your army around).

Take advantage of the cheap buy-in and see if you can find enough games to play with the local community. If you don't like it then you can always sell your stuff.

Also, if you want to somewhat rebutt that guy, from what I can see about PP games compared to all the others I could care less about (Infinity, Confrontation, AT-43, etc) - PP games have been getting a larger following. Case in point: What other non-GW game has a tournament scene like PP does?

When I started locally I was the only guy playing. Since then, we've got a Legion player, 2 merc players, 2 skorne players, a circle player, and a khador player. Others are interested- one guy is starting cryx, another cygnar, and there are various other interested people. The 40K/Fantasy club I play at has a lot of entrenched fanboys going "Warmachine sux, HURR" but more are going "Hmmm, looks fun." And this is without going to league nights in the shop in dublin, just going aroud to my mates demoing the games and lending them the books.
A lot of people are fed up with GW. The only way I can see this game going down hill is if they change the release system to an army book format. I would be much less interested in playing if they did that.

I think the army book format would fail only if they did a reset for the faction and
removed models from the line. If they keep all models' rules as playable then you
have a better chance of avoiding customer dissatisfaction.

WM/H has an advantage that you can replace one model (caster or lock) and your army can play radically different.

GW is the 800 lb gorilla of gaming. It will be for a long time. That doesn't mean that there aren't other good games out there, and PP puts some good ones out.

malfred: I'd be worried about codex creep and factions being put on the long finger.
At least now everyone gets new stuff at once and it's all mostly the same power level.

But a faction reset with points balancing might be enough to nerf existing models and introduce
new ones without overpowering any one faction, which will be nice. I just can't see them
continuing to release 10 factions worth of material every two years.

A fair point.
I'd be happier with less releases over time to keep them all coherant though, personally...

Typeline wrote:The greater metro Atlanta area. Mainly just north of Atlanta in the Lawrenceville/Suwanee area. There is a group of people who play on Thursdays at the FLGS I play at too though. They just play on Thursday and I'm more of a Friday/Saturday/Sunday type of guy. The store owner is trying to set up organized Warmachine play on Sunday though so maybe I can help enthusiasm levels with that in mind.

Hey, are you talking about The Tower?
I'm one of the guys you'll see there on Thursdays (every other week, most likely). We tried to get more people to come by more often, but we're all a bit scattered at the moment between three different stores (The Tower, The Dragons Hoarde, Phoenix Games). I think that part of the problem was that the Store Owner didn't return calls from our Press Ganger for a long while, so the PGs attention stayed focused on the other stores. Our PG is pretty good at pulling us together as a group.

Right now, the biggest group seems to be meeting at Phoenix Games in Buford on Fridays. You'll find me there on alternating weeks. I'll be at The Tower this Thursday though if you want a game. Ask for Jason.


As for the "strength" and "viability" of Warhammer vs Other Games:
Warhammer has been dominant and will be for a good while. There's nothing wrong with that, but they are not the be-all-end-all of wargames. We have a fairly strong set of non-GW games groups. Groups that meet on a regular schedule are a key in keeping a game going and in drawing in new members.
Many of our local WM players have either sworn off 40k completely for the time being, or never played it in the first place. There is a pretty large group of WM/H players, though we are a bit spread out across the whole of northern Atlanta. There is also a large and dedicated group of FoW and FoG gamers.

One thing that keeps the non-GW games going, aside for the (IMO) better rules and models, is a regular tournament schedule. Monthly tournaments with cheap entry fees and a rather friendly atmosphere keep everyone happy and enthusiastic about the games.

blue loki wrote:

Typeline wrote:The greater metro Atlanta area. Mainly just north of Atlanta in the Lawrenceville/Suwanee area. There is a group of people who play on Thursdays at the FLGS I play at too though. They just play on Thursday and I'm more of a Friday/Saturday/Sunday type of guy. The store owner is trying to set up organized Warmachine play on Sunday though so maybe I can help enthusiasm levels with that in mind.

Hey, are you talking about The Tower?
I'm one of the guys you'll see there on Thursdays (every other week, most likely). We tried to get more people to come by more often, but we're all a bit scattered at the moment between three different stores (The Tower, The Dragons Hoarde, Phoenix Games). I think that part of the problem was that the Store Owner didn't return calls from our Press Ganger for a long while, so the PGs attention stayed focused on the other stores. Our PG is pretty good at pulling us together as a group.

Right now, the biggest group seems to be meeting at Phoenix Games in Buford on Fridays. You'll find me there on alternating weeks. I'll be at The Tower this Thursday though if you want a game. Ask for Jason.

Oh man, that's awesome! I come down to the Tower on weekends mostly due to my work/school schedule. The owner of The Tower, Andrew, told me he was trying to set up W/H stuff on Sundays. Does Phoenix Games have a store website? People around the Tower know me as Kitt, I've known Andrew for awhile from when I first started getting into gaming.

Cool. Here's the link for Phoenix.

Andrew seems like a nice guy and I hope he can get a more established group to meet there. Sundays tend to be bad for me though.

Our monthly tournaments are usually on Sundays, and I can manage that, but most weekends I'm tied up with my 2 year old.

Hopefully I'll see ya around!

Typeline wrote:I'm going to start playing Warmachine regardless, but I need to be able to properly rebut him in order to drum up enthusiasm.

Well good luck with that. It'll be hard to because he's 100% spot on.

I play a few different games, all but one are GW games. The only non-GW game I play is BattleTech, and the only people that play besides the people in my group that I've ever actually met in person was a girl in Singapore in a random comic store near where I was staying, the same comic store where I saw BattleTech miniatures for the first time in the flesh (I had never seen a BTech blister in any store in Oz). This is a big game that has been around for 25 years next year, and I'd only ever seen a few products before in my own country.

Meanwhile, there's a GW 10 minutes drive from where I live, and another one that's a 15 minute drive from my work, and another one that's a 25 minute train ride away from my closest train station.

GW is the king of this small market, and finding players is really easy. I don't know of any other games that can do that.

BYE

So the Roman Legions at one time recruited apes?

This is a very interesting subject of debate. Ive played GW games for the last 19 or so years and due to Warmachine Ive sold all my 40k armies. The games I wish to play now when given an opportunity are Blood Bowl, LOTR, WHFB, and WM/H. The strategic planning and the mechanics of these games really appeal to me. I like looking at a board and trying to unravel the puzzle of "how do I make that assassination run", or "how do I get that touchdown". I found that when I play 40K there really wasnt much strategy to it. Push your models in the general direction of the enemy, chuck dice, remove your models and repeat.

With WM/H you can collect and play with a cheaper army with less models. Then if you should wish to completely change your armys playstyle, replce one model (your caster/lock), and viola! Dont get me wrong though you can put your self in the poor house with WM if you are a "collector" and need one of everything.

But its not all fun and games and sunshine with PP. The learning curve is steep. You have to pay attention at first and then the rules come down on you heavy and by the bucketful. This is easily solved with regular play with other competent individuals. Ive found that people who cant get a grasp of the activation sequence tend not to be satisfied by WM/H.

At first when I started playing WM/H I really didnt like the assassination bit at all. It didnt appeal to my 40k sense of playing a game to its full set of turns. After learning warmachine the caster kill became my favorite part. Looking at a board and telling my opponent "I think I can get you." and his reply of "Bring it, if you can." is a very satisfying part of my gaming experience now.

Its true you can go into any game store these days and find 2 guys playing 40k. I dont know what to say about that. Play what you like. Keep in mind that you may have to work harder to get in games of WM/H. Try to organise events at your LGS and stay positive. Eventually people will come around and want to play a game that requires a small modicum of strategic ability.

I have had the same thing happen to me time and time again.

L5R Clan war
Chronopia
Silent death
Warzone

I have 500 points of cygnar, but really, when I was to play right now, it's 40K

I think I'm going to keep playing Warmachine, when I can, but if you really want a good investment in your time and money, for a game you will most likely always be able to play, 40k is it.

I wish that GW would license the FoW system and make a 40k game based off that, but hell, I also really like to win the lottery, and be king of Siam.

My problem with 40k is there's a ton of build up for a game that, in the end,
isn't worth the time you put into it. I love how armies look, though.

So even if people stopped playing Warmachine tomorrow, I'd still finish painting/building
up my stuff in the hopes of getting a game in.

I actually HATE the caster kill. I've got an entirely fearless knight army that often the only present jack is the Avatar, which doesn't need focus. I've got 5 different commander models, why can't my army function without a warcaster?

And the other day against circle I was surrounded - all I had was a crippled devout and my warcaster. He finished off the devout and went for my caster, not quite killing it. My army was decimated, I was surrounded, his army was barely scathed. I'd been out-gunned, out-maneouvered, out-fought handily.

.....but if I rolled really high, I could have killed his warlock, and WON?!

Wait, so let me get this straight - the entire game his expert skill ran circles around me [is that why they call it Circle?], stopped my charges, isolated my solos, stopped my casting and just in general manhandled me, and I could win just by rolling well?

I don't like that. I don't like that at ALL. And that's why I like 40k, where your army actually matters, and victory conditions aren't always [in fact often aren't] just about killing the opponent, especially their HQ.

Spellbound wrote:I actually HATE the caster kill. I've got an entirely fearless knight army that often the only present jack is the Avatar, which doesn't need focus. I've got 5 different commander models, why can't my army function without a warcaster?

And the other day against circle I was surrounded - all I had was a crippled devout and my warcaster. He finished off the devout and went for my caster, not quite killing it. My army was decimated, I was surrounded, his army was barely scathed. I'd been out-gunned, out-maneouvered, out-fought handily.

.....but if I rolled really high, I could have killed his warlock, and WON?!

Wait, so let me get this straight - the entire game his expert skill ran circles around me [is that why they call it Circle?], stopped my charges, isolated my solos, stopped my casting and just in general manhandled me, and I could win just by rolling well?

I don't like that. I don't like that at ALL. And that's why I like 40k, where your army actually matters, and victory conditions aren't always [in fact often aren't] just about killing the opponent, especially their HQ.

Couldn't agree more,
This is the quintessential problem with PP games, Caster kill gets old after awhile.

Red_Lives wrote:

Spellbound wrote:I actually HATE the caster kill. I've got an entirely fearless knight army that often the only present jack is the Avatar, which doesn't need focus. I've got 5 different commander models, why can't my army function without a warcaster?

And the other day against circle I was surrounded - all I had was a crippled devout and my warcaster. He finished off the devout and went for my caster, not quite killing it. My army was decimated, I was surrounded, his army was barely scathed. I'd been out-gunned, out-maneouvered, out-fought handily.

.....but if I rolled really high, I could have killed his warlock, and WON?!

Wait, so let me get this straight - the entire game his expert skill ran circles around me [is that why they call it Circle?], stopped my charges, isolated my solos, stopped my casting and just in general manhandled me, and I could win just by rolling well?

I don't like that. I don't like that at ALL. And that's why I like 40k, where your army actually matters, and victory conditions aren't always [in fact often aren't] just about killing the opponent, especially their HQ.

Couldn't agree more,
This is the quintessential problem with PP games, Caster kill gets old after awhile.

Yeah... That's why Chess sux too. Once you capture the King the game is over.

beefHeart wrote:Yeah... That's why Chess sux too. Once you capture the King the game is over.

I <3 unreasonable comparisons.


- 100 Kingdoms: Had Roman Legionaire gorillas. I had to have it but no one played so I bought to armies to try and get people to play against. Yes they now gather dust with many other miniatures.
Why was no one playing this!?

Anyway, it seems like this guy isn't "trapped in the GW hobby mentality" at all.

He obviously has a lot of experience with games not produced by GW, right?

Red_Lives wrote:

Spellbound wrote:I actually HATE the caster kill. I've got an entirely fearless knight army that often the only present jack is the Avatar, which doesn't need focus. I've got 5 different commander models, why can't my army function without a warcaster?

And the other day against circle I was surrounded - all I had was a crippled devout and my warcaster. He finished off the devout and went for my caster, not quite killing it. My army was decimated, I was surrounded, his army was barely scathed. I'd been out-gunned, out-maneouvered, out-fought handily.

.....but if I rolled really high, I could have killed his warlock, and WON?!

Wait, so let me get this straight - the entire game his expert skill ran circles around me [is that why they call it Circle?], stopped my charges, isolated my solos, stopped my casting and just in general manhandled me, and I could win just by rolling well?

I don't like that. I don't like that at ALL. And that's why I like 40k, where your army actually matters, and victory conditions aren't always [in fact often aren't] just about killing the opponent, especially their HQ.

Couldn't agree more,
This is the quintessential problem with PP games, Caster kill gets old after awhile.

You do know you don't HAVE to play caster Kill right to win? And that there are scenario's where you can play WITHOUT caster kill?

I find the comparisons in this thread intriguing. I myself started on 40k and still play it occasionally here and there when time permits but enjoy the complexity of WHFB much more. I also play WM and am looking at Hordes currently also (But my favourite game of them all is Mordheim - can't complain with everything rules wise downloadable and a single blister costing maybe $20 australian gets you a warband and now youc an play. GW Trumps all via Mordheim ina ll arguments right there!).

The issue with GW and WM/H is that GW has been around what - more then 30 years right? PP had just hit 5 years. All things considered for a gaming company they have excelled where others haven't. When was the last time GW won best miniatures game at such grand places as Gen Con Indianapolis? When was the last time PP won it for both WM and Hordes? PP pwns GW in the awards section of the miniature shobby as a whole. But the thing is, GW and thus 40k has been around forever in comparison. GW created the modern feel of what a gaming store is as far as gaming in store tabletop wise and thus all other games follow behind. Confrontationw as going epically well, expanding quite solidly and showing that the French knew how to wipe the floor with any GW painting, and then the stupid fools went pre-painted and NO ONE effectivelyw orld wide plays. Rackham screwed their entire player base so the player base has screwed them. GW and PP have not and continue to dominate the market. Both have solid Tournament scenes, and both have worldwide events now (Summer Rampage for WM/H anyone?).

But it gets down to 40k & WHFB is still more widely played because GW is sold in more independent stockists worldwide then PP profuct. And that is the argument there. The player base is not so large as GW because the stock is not sold as universally as GW product.

On the one hand you have a company who is long established and floated on the share market, on the other you have a comparatively smaller company not to my knowledge on the share market. PP is generally better in customer relations (Am quite solid and long standing friends with managers of several independent stockists in Sydney, Australia, and get the wonderful feedback one can get from an independent stockist that a GW store will in general cover up - who wants an arrogant gakker in the UK turning around and saying there's nothing you can do because you're in Australia and too far away to get what you paid for on your credit card and we no longer have or produce? It's wonderful the nice legality of entering into a contract then trying such a pitiful excuse as that to cover your arse and then an independent stockist comes along and goes, NO Way. None of This gak, Broken Contract, Bad For YTou, fantastic for me. Sort it. Which it was buts everal weeks of that crap before someone higher up had a fit over what was happening and bam...I digress,a dn I am rambling, it is wearly I apologise) in my experience also. I can crap on but I think I'll stop.

One other argument you might want to include that actually trumps it also would be to state quite simply that Dungeons and Dragons is technically aminiatures game, infact you need a miniature to represent yourself and your party and all encountered opponents et al in the game and furthermore, read through the plkayers handbook and see the examples of how to resolve stuff using miniatures and diagrams with the miniatures. GW is built off of the explosion that was D&D and D&D has a wider player base then GW does. You can geta game of D&D at almost any hobby/gaming store and what's more it's more universal then GW.

Cheers all,

Auretious Taak.