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I was flipping through my IG codex for the 1,000,000,000th time today, and landed on the page of my favorite models (Karskins) but least favorite units - Stormtroopers. They seem alright at first glance, AP3 guns, hooray! On second glance, you notice the 18" range and the fact that they're S3. Also the fact that you can only get two special weapons (as opposed to veterans, who can get 3) and their points cost (16 apiece) make them horrendous.

How I would fix them:
Make their Hot-Shot Lasguns S4 or S5. That way, they could actually be a threat to MEQ.
Allow them to take one more special weapon.
Can't think of anything else atm....thoughts?

I would like (you know because they have spent there whole lives trianing) if they had a better stat line maby +1 WS, +1LD or +1BS

and i agree that they should get more speical weapons at 16 points each. IMO they also need better speical operations

The trouble is you can't improve their statlines much or they look like space marines and no matter how hard they train they are never going to be astartes - storm troopes might train and survive for 30 years max an Astartes has trained for decades. I'm sorry but it just wouldn't work. If Storm Troopers were higher BS and/or WS, Ld then you would have to boost marines

id give them T4

The main problem with Stormies for me is the Hot-shot lasgun. At 18" range, they run a real risk of being assaulted as soon as they get close enough to kill anything, and at S3, they lack punch, hence why they have been deemed "suicide" squads.

To counter this, either A) Their weapons need to have increased range, to allow them to get off more than one salvo; B) Their weapons need to +1 S to effectively neutralise a squad at 18" range; or C) increase their effectiveness in CC. I'd say +1WS and +1 T would be enough to do this.

I also fully agree with the +1 Special Weapon call!

Just my $0.02

CadianXV wrote: I'd say +1WS and +1 T would be enough to do this.

Again this would make them far too similar to marines they are only men. I do agree theat the Hot- Shot Lasgun should be increased to 24" St 4 Ap3

I don't think stat buffs are the way forwards with Stormtroopers, As said any increases in the stats take them to SM territory.

I think reducing the points cost would be a better move, making it harder to overlook them in favour of veterans.

Maybe a stubborn and or FNP type buff would seal the deal? special cover saves? Sounds OP but I don't know anything else that would make me take Stomies over veterans (who can also hold onto objectives as troops)

Ed_Bodger wrote:

CadianXV wrote: I'd say +1WS and +1 T would be enough to do this.

Again this would make them far too similar to marines they are only men.

They are only men, but they are the best troops the IG has to offer. with the improved statline, they would share some Astartes characteristics, but aren't a carbon copy of Tactical Marines either. With the proliferation of MEQ armies, I see no problem in the Elite troops of the IG (and Inquisition) actually having a similar statline to marines. Indeed, the SM Codex says words to the effect of, "SM troops are the equal, if not better, than most race's Elites." I personally take this to mean that a IG Stormtrooper can face a Tactical Marine on an almost equal ground, which the boost to the stats would provide.

Heck, at 16 points a piece, they should be quite similar, with a standard marine (in my day) being 15 points.

Ed_Bodger wrote:I do agree theat the Hot- Shot Lasgun should be increased to 24" St 4 Ap3

Glad you agree with this though!

oh and +1 WS

CadianXV wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:

CadianXV wrote: I'd say +1WS and +1 T would be enough to do this.

Again this would make them far too similar to marines they are only men.

...to mean that a IG Stormtrooper can face a Tactical Marine on an almost equal ground, which the boost to the stats would provide.

You've got to be joking...
The Space Marines *are* the elite of mankind. There is incredible amounts of fluff that disagree with exactly what you have posted.

Their guns should be Assault 2 18" S3 Ap 3. They need to be able to fire on the move continiously.

give the hotshot lasguns 2 profiles.

24" Str 4 AP 3 Heavy 1
and
12" Str 3 AP 3 Assault 2

or something like that.

Or it could be like this:

Hellgun:

Minimal: R24" Str 4 Ap - Assault 2
Maximal: R18" Str 4 Ap 3 Assault 1

There you go. Problems solved.

Oh and Stormtroopers should be base WS4 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD8 SV4+

Vladsimpaler wrote:Or it could be like this:

Hellgun:

Minimal: R24" Str 4 Ap - Assault 2
Maximal: R18" Str 4 Ap 3 Assault 1

There you go. Problems solved.

Oh and Stormtroopers should be base WS4 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD8 SV4+

As strong, skilled in close combat and shooting, as a tactical space marine?
Next please!

Make their weapon more of a mobile assault weapon with some punch, give them special tactical options, and call it a day.

You guys are playing the wrong edition if you think that non- unique guardsmen are going to be strength or toughness >3. Even in 2nd edition only characters got a T or S bump.
Stormies would be fine the way they are if they were 12 or 13 points a model. I mean, how often do you see them on foot? they don't really need longer range. And if their guns were better than a bolter as vlads is suggesting why wouldn't marines use them?

@Che-Vito: I don't get your outright dismissal of any stats that approach marine characteristics. Sure, fluff wise marines can rip off a stormies head with their bare hands, but the game mechanics don't account for this.
Specialist game systems, such as Inquisitor do- it'd take several 'normal' humans some clever tactics and a bit of luck to take down a marine in that system, but 40k doesn't have that scope.

A slight increase in stats makes stormtroopers more of a threat against MEQ, and overall more effective which is no bad thing IMO; so what if they share WS, BS and/or T with standard marines on paper?

CadianXV wrote:@Che-Vito: I don't get your outright dismissal of any stats that approach marine characteristics. Sure, fluff wise marines can rip off a stormies head with their bare hands, but the game mechanics don't account for this.
Specialist game systems, such as Inquisitor do- it'd take several 'normal' humans some clever tactics and a bit of luck to take down a marine in that system, but 40k doesn't have that scope.

A slight increase in stats makes stormtroopers more of a threat against MEQ, and overall more effective which is no bad thing IMO; so what if they share WS, BS and/or T with standard marines on paper?

Because quite simply, they are not that good. Give them special rules that allow them to survive better, a better weapon, or a drop in points. Giving them "Move Through Cover" (if they don't already have it), dropping them to 14 points, and making them S4 Ap4 Assault 2, sounds fine to me.

If my damn elite costs as much as a space marine, they should have damn near equal stats as a space marine.

To hell with the fluff, Id like to see some balance.. And thats the bottom line.

Would giving them 24" S5 AP3 Assault 1 be too OP?

In all honesty, it's that or a points decrease. I want my Elites to be good, dammit!

Hellgun: S3 Ap- 24 assault 2, basically the lasgun analogue to a stormbolter. Gives more of an offense-oriented profile and avoids the massive expense you'd incur from Ap3. Unit keeps the same basic profile and weapons options along with the deep strike and infiltrate rules. Call it ~10 points per man.

I've always felt that Stormtroopers should have access to the 'underslung Grenade Launcher' that the Elysian Sergeants had in IA3/4.

Have it be an upgrade to any/all Stormtroopers with hotshot lasguns for a bit more flex for the unit, overall, with the ability to launch a Frag/Krak barrage to soften a target up.

Not much more I can think of otherwise, and haven't used them enough to comment other than I really dislike the "Special Operations" rule.

Che-Vito wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Or it could be like this:

Hellgun:

Minimal: R24" Str 4 Ap - Assault 2
Maximal: R18" Str 4 Ap 3 Assault 1

There you go. Problems solved.

Oh and Stormtroopers should be base WS4 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD8 SV4+

As strong, skilled in close combat and shooting, as a tactical space marine?
Next please!

Make their weapon more of a mobile assault weapon with some punch, give them special tactical options, and call it a day.

Aw you poor baby. Can't deal with your SPESS MEHRENS not being the greatest thing ever? Suck it up. Maybe Str4 was a little unneeded but the WS4 and BS4 should stay.

I hope that your precious SPESS MEHRENS go back to being T3 and having a 4+ save, and that Commissars go back to Str4 T4 while we're at it.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Or it could be like this:

Hellgun:

Minimal: R24" Str 4 Ap - Assault 2
Maximal: R18" Str 4 Ap 3 Assault 1

There you go. Problems solved.

Oh and Stormtroopers should be base WS4 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD8 SV4+

As strong, skilled in close combat and shooting, as a tactical space marine?
Next please!

Make their weapon more of a mobile assault weapon with some punch, give them special tactical options, and call it a day.

Aw you poor baby. Can't deal with your SPESS MEHRENS not being the greatest thing ever? Suck it up. Maybe Str4 was a little unneeded but the WS4 and BS4 should stay.

I hope that your precious SPESS MEHRENS go back to being T3 and having a 4+ save, and that Commissars go back to Str4 T4 while we're at it.

Word.

As I stated earlier, if two things cost the same in points it stands to reason that they should be damn near equal in both stats and overall effectiveness.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Aw you poor baby. Can't deal with your SPESS MEHRENS not being the greatest thing ever? Suck it up. Maybe Str4 was a little unneeded but the WS4 and BS4 should stay.

I hope that your precious SPESS MEHRENS go back to being T3 and having a 4+ save, and that Commissars go back to Str4 T4 while we're at it.

Read my sig. I'm a Tau and IG player for the most part. Instead of insulting me, make a point, and contribute to the thread.

jp400 wrote: Word.

As I stated earlier, if two things cost the same in points it stands to reason that they should be damn near equal in both stats and overall effectiveness.

Drop the point cost, that's fine by me. Drop them to 10 points, give them Move Through Cover, or drop to 12 and make their weapon better.

they should get bolters, and with them special issue ammo, because if you think about it, they're basically the vanguard (or sternguard) squadrons. arming them with lasguns is... stupid.

HS-LG should be S4 at least, they loose such range for a good AP? I think if it were S5 AP6 peopl;e would like them.

If we could avoid the name calling and shouting at each other it'd be cool. Rule number 1 etc etc please. Ta.

I think the key point is that they are over priced. We all know that 40K rules and fluff don't match or else Sm would be Ws 9 BS 9 S 9 T 10000 W 10000 LD 100000000

The fact is that no guardsman should be a marine equivalent for any reason it just doesn't make sense however giving them a superpowered weapon with multiple shot options and high ST would be fine IMO.

Personally Id like to see ST's somewhere along the following:

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Sv:4+

Deep Strike-
Spec Ops-

Hot Shot Lasgun-
Range:24'' Str:4 Ap:3 Rapid Fire

For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Cost: 11 pts each

One other thing is I would have liked to have seen Valkyries available as Dedicated Transports for Stormtrooper Squads.

Would be far more interesting in my opinion.

Let me state first off that I love stormies for melta delivery and use two min melta squads in most armies. So the following suggestions are intended to make them more of a shock-troop/spec ops type force that I think they're supposed to be.

-Make the hellgun assault 2, 24" range. This allows them to move and fire at full efficiency. I disagree with bumping the strength up. They're advanced lasguns, not hellfire bolters.

-Give the troops themselves +1 WS and +1 leadership (including the sergeant, bumping him up to 9). Either that or DON'T increase the leadership and give them stubborn. They're crazy badasses, totally indoctrinated and probably prone to torturing small animals in their spare time. They shouldn't run the first time one of them gets his head chopped off by a chaos marine.

Bam. Fixed!

EDIT: I actually like the stubborn option better. They went to the same schools as commissars, right? Same indoctrination, same stubborn madness!