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Hi guys, this is just a few notes on the new power weapon rules, under my thinking.

The article could be summarised to

“People think that a single sarge with an axe will INSTA PWN ALL DUH TERMINATORZ”

If you take the time to read the article, Props. Otherwise, I'm looking for thoughts on Power weapons as they stand today, given a new, psyker/shooty meta.

I would like people to take note that if you do decide "Tl;dr", I didn't say "Axiz are bad cos they i1."

So, I'm looking for:
Comments about Power weapons in general.
Focus on each kind of power weapon.
Arguments to counter what I've said.

Oh, and if someone can give me a situation where you will ever use a power lance, please tell me. I'm having difficulty seeing use for a power-lance.

Edit: Might help if I included a link.

First off, the linked article is wrong about power swords. They function at regular strength, not +1 STR.

Here is the way I see it:

Power axes: good when you don't care about initiative. I don't consider power axes good in a squad with a single character. However, if you have some independent character attached as well as a sergeant to suck up challenges, the axe becomes quite good. The power axe in the hands of a marine will give full attacks, wound T3 on a 2+, wound T4 on a 3+ and cut through all regular armor. But I agree on a sergeant in a vacuum I wouldn't go this route.

Power sword: this guy is a crap shoot imo. You get no str bonus, go on your init and are only AP 3. Now this is great vs some things, like tactical marines or some regular joe that calls you out. But you run the risk of running into the smartass wolf guard in terminator armor or any other jackass with a 2+ armor save. Then you get challenged, and you have to slink away. Also, against enemies like eldar and some nids, you might as well swing slow for more STR.

Power fist: the only standby of 5th, back in the days of "hidden powerfist". Well those wound allocation rules are gone. Guys with powerfists are like those with power axes only they instagib a lot more but get one less attack. They suffer from the same problem as axe wielders, namely being challenged by some guy with a sword could be bad news indeed. Since I use my sergeant as challenge monkeys a lot, they never get this weapon. It's pricetag doesn't help either. With the rise of "krak grenades for the Emprah!", this weapon is not as necessary in that function either.

Power maul: This weapon is flatout awesome if you don't care about AP. It still owns 4+ armor, which is great against many armies. It instagibs T3 models and put the smack down on some monstrous creatures. Bloodthirsters think they are badasses until a LR full of DC with power mauls spill out and whip that ass. Unfortunately, many people own marine armies and so we often DO care about AP. The power maul is not going to dent most meq armies big characters like Abbadon or Mephiston. However, if you want sarge to beat down nobs, its *perfect*.

Power lance: I have no power lances in my inventory. I guess that in some circumstances these could be advantageous for units that will be charging all the time. +1 Str going on regular init with AP 3 is pretty nice, but a unit with these that get tarpitted are hosed. A unit with hit and run could probably cause some serious damage with these things.

In general, at least for BA, I usually give my sergeants power mauls or nothing at all. There are some games I have spare points and hand out some power swords. The sanguinary priests (whom I don't want to be attacked or die in challenges anyway) usually get power axes. They are WS 5 and great for cleaning up terminator squads crippled by shooting. They hide in the squad they joined and the the sergeant suck up the challenge. My libby also often gets a power axe, but sometimes he gets a sword to function as a backup challenge monkey. Instant death makes going on init much nicer. My list is mostly a mobile shooter list, though, so most power weapons are there for clean up.

One other thing about "owning the terminators". There is no good way I can think of to HTH TH/SS terminators. I guess maybe tons of regular attacks, but its just must easier to shoot them. Especially because they can't shoot back. So I only count on power axes to clean up 2+ armor squads that have been weakened. Basically its a hedge against being tarpitted by two stragglers with a 2+ save.

If you're an I3 or slower model, get an axe. You were probably going second anyway, and ignoring all armour and getting +1 strength on top of it is a better deal than you got with generic power weapons in 5th edition.

Power weapons were balanced for I4 models, particularly marines. You can't go too wrong here, so just magnetize and tailor for your meta.

If you're I5 or higher, leave the axe on the shelf. Pretending that you'll have a chance against terminators is not worth going after marines instead of before. These models will probably have more exotic options than generic power weapons, but low-strength models will get proportionately more benefit out of maces, so keep that in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
One other thing about "owning the terminators". There is no good way I can think of to HTH TH/SS terminators. I guess maybe tons of regular attacks, but its just must easier to shoot them. Especially because they can't shoot back. So I only count on power axes to clean up 2+ armor squads that have been weakened. Basically its a hedge against being tarpitted by two stragglers with a 2+ save.

Beastmasters come to mind. Get the Khymerae stuck in first so the instant death wounds have to go on a W1 4++ model, then show them that S3 rending means half the wounds ignore their armor.

Power Lances should only be taken with units that have the hit and run special rule. this is the only advantage I can see with them.

I mostly agree with OP on his article but will add a twist:

Libby weapons: since Librarians don't have access to the PF, giving them an axe will help them wound some of those tougher multi-wound models and then you can throw in your Force power to insta-kill them.

In general though the sword is the way to go for MEQs to retain your initiative and ignore the 3+. I use a chaplain fairly often with my BTs and it always sucks seing all my attacks being negated with a 3+ save, thankfully you can swap the CCW for BT chappies and I'll usually give him a claw instead.

Maybe a couple power lances on DC with JPs led by Dante. They get +1 str from furious charge and +1 str from the lance on the charge: ws5 str 6 ap3 A4 on charge. Pretty nasty. I guess you would need an apothecary just to accept challenges so Dante doesn't have to hide.

The extra point of strength on the lance only gets you 25% more AP3 wounds, at the cost of being S4 AP4 on the subsequent turns.

I don't know about you, but I don't think that's worth it.

 g0atsticks wrote:
Power Lances should only be taken with units that have the hit and run special rule. this is the only advantage I can see with them.

Or that are garunteed to wipe their opponents on the second round of combat and can handle one round of only being AP4.

Deathcompany for example.

The guys I play with ALL play space marines. AP4 does nothing for me. I'm a sword and board kind of guy.

Corollax wrote:
The extra point of strength on the lance only gets you 25% more AP3 wounds, at the cost of being S4 AP4 on the subsequent turns.

I don't know about you, but I don't think that's worth it.

At WS5, with FIVE attacks each on the charge, their isn't a 2nd round. I'd consider lances on a small deathcompany delivered by storm raven.

-Matt

But it's still the risk of getting bad rolls and getting stuck in a second round. I'm not saying they are bad. They seem to be a good mix between mace and sword. It's just a lot of people prefer to play safe.

Power lances could be good on death cult assassins. Most of the lists that I can recall seeing use at least six DC's, which give enough that you can have a wide range of power weapons, not counting the crusaders with them. You could do something like six power lances, four power swords, and a smattering of mauls, with the power axes on the crusaders. Attach a Xenos inquisitor and you get hammer hands, and rad grenades, giving your DC's an effective +3 str on the charge, all at initiative 6.

And if you do get stuck in you still have power swords and axes to cut your way out again.

To me, power weapons are usually not worth it now in any form.

Those things which you're going to actually want to get into close combat are going to have access to weapons that are much better than power weapons, and you should take those. Things that don't have access to better weapons, and are stuck with power weapons as being their best upgrades are generally the kinds of things you're not going to want to get into close combat at all, defeating the point of taking a close combat upgrade.

Of course, there are a few exceptions to this, such as when a model gets a power weapon for free. In these cases, I actually like the mace over the axe. As mentioned above, something that doesn't have access to a power fist isn't likely doing much against tough targets anyways, so you might as well not bother attempting to make it good against tough targets by bringing an axe. Better to go after other stuff. In this case, the mace is a much better all-rounder.

And no, I can't think of a use for a power lance. So crappy...

I still maintain that situational power axes are very, very nice. It boosts the killing capacity of the WS 5 sanguinary priest a great deal. He's ST 6 AP 2 on the charge and hits WS 4 on 3's. And wounds T4 on 2's, and penetrates all armor.

But that is a far cry from, "OMGZ I'm going to pwn all the Termies!"

From what I've seen the only unit I'd give power axes to are Chaos Termies, and thats only cause they get them for free and still lets them attack at AP2 (and even I give at least one guy in the squad a fist). On any other unit if you really want AP2 melee you might as well get the power fist...

The axe is cheaper and grants more attacks. In many cases, STR 5 or 6 is just fine. And the power fist is not an option for some models. Trust me, it works great on sanguinary priests.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
I use a chaplain fairly often with my BTs and it always sucks seing all my attacks being negated with a 3+ save, thankfully you can swap the CCW for BT chappies and I'll usually give him a claw instead.

You don't swap it, you buy the claw. You'd have both a Crozius Arcanum and a Lightning Claw.

Well, Space Wolves are a bit spoiled in that we can also take Frost weapons for the additional +1S. This means we can take the AP3 weapons that are almost as good against lower saves as the Maul and the Axe is just as good but AP2, making it a nice terminator choice.

Generally, though, I find points are better invested in shooting.

Martel732 wrote:
I still maintain that situational power axes are very, very nice. It boosts the killing capacity of the WS 5 sanguinary priest a great deal. He's ST 6 AP 2 on the charge and hits WS 4 on 3's. And wounds T4 on 2's, and penetrates all armor.

But that is a far cry from, "OMGZ I'm going to pwn all the Termies!"

but dropping you to init 1 hurts. Any chump with a lightning claw or power weapon could drop your priest before he strikes. Also a ork nob with PK is now going to get to strike simo. At str6 he cant ID the nob.

A power axe is a power fist that might get +1 attack, and doesnt have the strenght.

My priest can't be targeted in melee. I'll take all the wounds on chumps, ensuring he gets to go.

Martel732 wrote:
My priest can't be targeted in melee. I'll take all the wounds on chumps, ensuring he gets to go.

if he is the closest model, the wounds go on him and he has to los them off. if he is in a challenge, the wounds go on him and cant take them off

I suppose you have to make sure he's touching regular troopers then. He's never in a challenge, that's sarge's job or even the libby's job.

I think that's the reason why I like the Power mauls and swords. So many people are going with Power axe that it looks like I'll have a better odds of survival if I hit them hard first and reduce the number of attacks back.

Storm Shields and Power Weapons: Where the Power Maul is better than the Power Sword is just inflicting wounds even vs. Terminators. This is the weapon to take vs. Storm Shields. If half your hits don’t even wound a Terminator a 2+ or a 3++ isn’t going to make a difference. What you need is more chances for the Terminator to fail.

Power Lance: Were I have been finding the best use for the Power Lance is High Attack models designed to issue challenges; like Company Champions and Blood Champions. I use one with my Blood Angles Honor Guard on the Blood Champion. I even have the Company Banner with then giving him 5 S6 AP3 Attacks on the opening Assault, this usually is enough to take out the Sergeant or what ever. Then the next run come up I just have the Captain Accept the Challenge [if any] with his 5 I5 S4 AP3 Lighting Claws. By that time there is usually not much left of the target of the assault.

I also use a Power Lance with one of my Thunderlords and this has worked well to. With him I have a Power Lance and a Power Axe to deal with any AP2 I run across, but so far the Axe has been a waist of points.

 jmurph wrote:
Well, Space Wolves are a bit spoiled in that we can also take Frost weapons for the additional +1S. This means we can take the AP3 weapons that are almost as good against lower saves as the Maul and the Axe is just as good but AP2, making it a nice terminator choice.

Generally, though, I find points are better invested in shooting.

Except that they're the same points cost as a power fist... I'd much rather take a regular power weapon or the fist for that cost.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 jmurph wrote:
Well, Space Wolves are a bit spoiled in that we can also take Frost weapons for the additional +1S. This means we can take the AP3 weapons that are almost as good against lower saves as the Maul and the Axe is just as good but AP2, making it a nice terminator choice.

Generally, though, I find points are better invested in shooting.

Except that they're the same points cost as a power fist... I'd much rather take a regular power weapon or the fist for that cost.

The advantage of the Frost Axe over the Power fist though is to get the axtra attack you must buy a Secons Specialist Weapon. With a Frost Axe the +1 Attack cost nothing.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I think that's the reason why I like the Power mauls and swords. So many people are going with Power axe that it looks like I'll have a better odds of survival if I hit them hard first and reduce the number of attacks back.

Which is why I take a mix of squad level characters with pairs of plasma pistols. It's the ultimate of my non-independent character will kill yours before you swing... because I do it in the shooting phase.

-Matt

Ran a squad of Termicide CSM Terminators with combi-melta and power mauls in a few games and the other games I used axes. I will say that the mauls FAR out performed the axes. The reasons why:

1. When I use my Terminators, I deep strike them to blow up some bothersome heavy target. I expect heavy return fire, then I hope to shoot/charge again on my turn. Knowing this, when I was dropping in, there was all sorts of back field type units there along with tanks and such. In one game, I melta'd a Russ, took some return fire, but had 2 guys live. After a heroic charge, I managed to reach a Manticore on my turn. St 6 with 3 attacks hitting an immobile target wrecked it. Less likely with the axes. Another game, they came in and whiffed on wrecking a psyfileman with meltas but I managed to kill 2 in assault later in the game. St. 6 really came in handy.

2. In combat, I was reliably making the opponent make saves. And the stuff that scares me hits after me (fist, axe, hammer).

I might be a maul guy from now on.

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still maintain that situational power axes are very, very nice. It boosts the killing capacity of the WS 5 sanguinary priest a great deal. He's ST 6 AP 2 on the charge and hits WS 4 on 3's. And wounds T4 on 2's, and penetrates all armor.

But that is a far cry from, "OMGZ I'm going to pwn all the Termies!"

but dropping you to init 1 hurts. Any chump with a lightning claw or power weapon could drop your priest before he strikes. Also a ork nob with PK is now going to get to strike simo. At str6 he cant ID the nob.

A power axe is a power fist that might get +1 attack, and doesnt have the strenght.

The maul is good. If you hit and you wound with it; unless they are 2w plus, you kill them and them dropping to I1 doesn't matter. Take this only for the S bonus, this PW even makes SoB look good in CC. Just sayin......I do love the imagary of pounding people in the face with blunt objects...........I have anger issues......HATE...

The power lance works good on two specific models in two specific models in two specific units. Both of which have hit and run.

1. Harlequin troupe masters-Power weapon is free, and you are I6. The squad has furious charge stock, and the rest of the squad has rending. Go into combat with 5 S5 attacks on the charge. Not the best against teminators, but again the rest of the squad should have harlequins kisses to rend. Then again, the troupe master can get a free harlequins kiss...

2. Hellion Helliarchs. 5 point power weapons, the potential to get furious charge, a unit that relies on a lot of shooting to soften up their targets, and a bunch of s4 ap - attacks on combat. Gives you the ability to cut through some marines. Hellions never excelled at killing terminators.