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How well does it go over to create your own chapter and apply certain special rules to your custom chapter? Does anyone have any good guidelines to creating your own chapter without them being too over powered due to a mix of certain special rules, or the flip side. Too weak? I got some lore I am working on for this custom chapter and was wondering how people would feel if I were to bust out a full print out of my chapter and their special rules.

Just testing the waters before I go all in on this Idea! any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated

In general I always support this kind of thing, part of this game is creative license and the other major part to me is having fun.

As long as your rules are balanced/fair I would have no problem with it, although in a tournament setting understandbly it probably would not be usable.

There actually used to be a table based on the divergence from the codex astartes in the 3rd or 4th edition space marine codex (can't remember which one right now), which gave you access to various perks and drawbacks based on your own chapter. These could be things like force organisation changes, direct skills put on certain units and additional rules etc. (Can't remember them all that well.)

This created some really fun and intriguing armies and could probably be easily adapted to 6th edition with some tweaks.

I would post it up but I'm at work, if you want a copy of the table I can PM it to you when I get home.

That would be awesome if I could get that chart! WOULD MAKE MY LIFE EASIER!

If your playing with your friends GO FOR IT!!! Developing your own rules can be fun I do believe the 4th edition Space marine Codex encouraged this. However if you go to play in organized play or even play at a gw or FLGS you may have some trouble selling the other player on your new chapter.

Hate to break the happy trend, but don't expect to make up your own rules unless you're playing with very good friends. The sad truth is most people suck at writing balanced and interesting rules, so my default position (shared with most other people) is to reject anything that isn't published by GW. I would only even consider allowing something like that if we've been playing for a long time, I trust your judgment and interest in having a fun game over making your own "I win" rules, and I get plenty of time to look over your proposed rules with veto power (for any reason) over anything I don't like. Otherwise, forget it, either play with the normal rules or find a different opponent.

And, honestly, given that you're starting from "make my own chapter" rather than an idea that you've been unable to do adequately with official rules, your plan doesn't have much potential. Without a strong concept in mind before you start you're either going to make an overpowered mess, or a bunch of pointless changes-for-the-sake-of-change that don't really add anything compared to just using the official rules.


I should also note that this only applies to custom RULES. Feel free to make your own fluff/paint scheme/etc without any complaints from all but the most fluff-purity-obsessed players.

Make your special units/rules/wargear on the underpowered, yet fluffy side. Then slowly adjust over dozens of games played with those rules after you get a feel for it in different lists, at different levels, and against different armies. Don't go overboard with the rules or units, and take a look at what each codex can do to represent your chapter as closely as possible.

The worst mistake you can make is thinking your chapter is uber special and super snowflake unique. Make the changes subtle and use the existing rules as much as possible unless you really, really, REALLY know how to balance properly. You'll also likely only ever get to use it with your closest gaming buddies.

Oh, and do your research. Go check out Bolter and Chainsword for excellent marine articles, thoughts, rules, and fluff. Also read the proposed rules section here for the good and bad examples.

Simple is better. If you want to make your own custom stuff, make the changes as small as possible.

I'd accept it on these conditions:

1: Have a clear, well typed out, and concise sheet for your rules and points. If it's something poorly worded, written or on some napkin I'll refuse. It has to show that you are doing this to better the enjoyment of both of us rather than pwn my army.

2: You have to have WYSIWG for your custom stuff. No shenanigans such as "Oh, this Plasma gun counts as my new Lol Pattern Plasma Repeater and this one is the normal Plasma Gun". Again, I want you to show that you have genuine passion for your rules.

3: Fluff justifications! You need the fluff. No fluff, no go. Otherwise, it's just me making up a Leman Russ variant that has Lumbering Behemoth and with AV 12 on the back for no reason.

I am not looking to break the rules here just to create something new that I enjoy as well as creating new scenarios that are enjoyable for other folks to play against. I see too much of the same stuff, plus like I said I am in the process of coming up with my own lore/fluff for this chapter to explain why they favor this, or why they excell/lack at this. For example the chapter favors combat through exchange of gun fire so they gain +1 Balistics Skill and a -1 weapon skill. Like I said I am not wanting to break the game I already see/hear about it too much!

One idea for making a custom chapter would be to write up a list of guidlines abusing the allies rules to get the units you want, and refluff them. I know that if someone showed me (or anyone at my store, really) something like that, and made clear what is what, we'd be fine with it.

Maybe if you have an especially shooty chapter, ally Farsight Tau to your marines. Make a jump pack HQ model for farsight with a nice sword, take Stealth Suits and Crisis Suits to represent your shooty marines, and use Tau fire warriors as Scouts, etc...

Actually, I may try that if people in my area are cool with it. That sounds like a really neat way to do an army XD

Maxipad wrote:
I am not looking to break the rules here just to create something new that I enjoy as well as creating new scenarios that are enjoyable for other folks to play against.

Why does it have to be new? What's so wrong with the existing rules which everyone agrees on using that you have to come up with your own rules and beg people to let you use them instead?

For example the chapter favors combat through exchange of gun fire so they gain +1 Balistics Skill and a -1 weapon skill.

And this is exactly my point. That is incredibly overpowered, for two reasons:

1) Marines are primarily a shooting army. They can assault once they've weakened your unit, or with a few dedicated assault units, but most of the time they want to get to mid-range and shoot you to death. So you've giving them a small drawback to assault ability that they don't really care about, in exchange for a huge bonus to the shooting ability they do care about.

2) BS and WS are not comparable stats. Going from BS 4 to BS 5 because BS 1-5 is a steady increase on the shooting to-hit chart, while going from WS 4 to WS 3 doesn't make much of a difference because the melee to-hit chart is just broken up into 4+ or 3+ to hit with no other steps. So WS 3 is not a big deal against other marines (you still hit on a 4+, the only difference is you get hit on a 3+), almost irrelevant against weaker enemies (you kill fire warriors and guardsmen no matter if you have WS 3 or WS 4), and irrelevant against stronger enemies (which have WS 5+ and don't care about WS 3 vs. WS 4). Because of this a point of BS is worth MUCH more than a point of WS, and you can't just trade them at a 1:1 ratio.

In short: that is NOT a balanced trade, and is the perfect example of trying to change the rules without actually understanding them well enough to know what you're doing. I wouldn't even consider playing against that army.

 Peregrine wrote:

Maxipad wrote:
I am not looking to break the rules here just to create something new that I enjoy as well as creating new scenarios that are enjoyable for other folks to play against.

Why does it have to be new? What's so wrong with the existing rules which everyone agrees on using that you have to come up with your own rules and beg people to let you use them instead?

For example the chapter favors combat through exchange of gun fire so they gain +1 Balistics Skill and a -1 weapon skill.

And this is exactly my point. That is incredibly overpowered, for two reasons:

1) Marines are primarily a shooting army. They can assault once they've weakened your unit, or with a few dedicated assault units, but most of the time they want to get to mid-range and shoot you to death. So you've giving them a small drawback to assault ability that they don't really care about, in exchange for a huge bonus to the shooting ability they do care about.

2) BS and WS are not comparable stats. Going from BS 4 to BS 5 because BS 1-5 is a steady increase on the shooting to-hit charge, while going from WS 4 to WS 3 doesn't make much of a difference because the melee to-hit chart is just broken up into 4+ or 3+ to hit with no other steps. So WS 3 is not a big deal against other marines (you still hit on a 4+, the only difference is you get hit on a 3+), almost irrelevant against weaker enemies (you kill fire warriors and guardsmen no matter if you have WS 3 or WS 4), and irrelevant against stronger enemies (which have WS 5+ and don't care about WS 3 vs. WS 4). Because of this a point of BS is worth MUCH more than a point of WS, and you can't just trade them at a 1:1 ratio.

In short: that is NOT a balanced trade, and is the perfect example of trying to change the rules without actually understanding them well enough to know what you're doing. I wouldn't even consider playing against that army.

This.

Use C:SM/C:SW/C:BA/CA/C:CSM/C:BT/C:GK

If those don't satisfy you, use IA:10 Siege Assault Vanguards, or Horus Heresy: Betrayal Legion list.

If you can't run your Chapter using one of these 9 different Space Marine lists, you'll be out of luck with the vast majority of the community.

It was an example not what was intended. Disregard this whole thing because I can tell its just going to turn into a S. Storm of "I know this better than you"....

Maxipad wrote:
It was an example not what was intended. Disregard this whole thing because I can tell its just going to turn into a S. Storm of "I know this better than you"....

It's really not. It's moreso a matter of the community as a whole barely being happy with the rules GW puts out as it is.

When you let players themselves alter them, it opens dark, dangerous doors to problems.

Plus, if something in C:SM is deemed unfair by your opponent, its a matter of saying "well, the rule is right here, GW put it there."

If something in C:Yourcustomchapter is deemed unfair by your opponent, "Well I thought it sounded fair when I wrote it" just doesn't stand up too well.

Maxipad wrote:
It was an example not what was intended. Disregard this whole thing because I can tell its just going to turn into a S. Storm of "I know this better than you"....

It did show that you have trouble understanding what the basic stats represent: Marines are already BS4 because they are expert marksmen. They already outshine trained soldiers (IG with BS3). BS5 is used for commander types so they can stand out above the highly trained expert marksmen, so giving that to an army is completely over the top.

If your throwaway example is so far gone, it does suggest that your real ideas will be over the top as well, so please take the reaction as a good measure of how much a seemingly small change really would affect the game. Plus, you used it to represent what the army already is...

TheCaptain wrote:When you let players themselves alter them, it opens dark, dangerous doors to problems.

Yeah, it's rather why games have rules at all. Otherwise it's just storytelling. Storytelling where one person "wins" and the other "loses" tends to turn ugly fast.

If you want to make your own chapter, I'd come up with a great backstory, a defined playstyle, an interesting color scheme, and then play it out of the space marine codex.

A lot of people get sucked into the trap that the codex limits what they can do creatively, when this really isn't true. It only limits the particular qualities of the units you field, but that's it. People look at the guard codex and think that you have the choice between cadian or catachan, when there is absolutely nothing stopping you from fielding a guard army with muskets or spears, or priests in practically every squad, or that only believes in laser weapons. Cannibals, criminals, ultra-elite aristocracy. You can do practically anything with guard. You just have to take point totals and unit capabilities from the codex.

What I do? Rename existing words and change the description.

Example: Being a huge fan of the Red Alert games, I decided to make a Tesla Trooper. Since they're antitank troops with powerful but short ranged weapons, I made them counts-as meltaguns.
For my Chaos Lord, he has a Sigil of Corruption and Mark of Tzeentch for a 3++, which I described as being bestowed by the power sword he wields (DV Lord).
Etc.

Are you sure that adding units with Allies isn't going to get a similar result?
Allies allow you to grab units from other chapters, and most options are already in place.
The BA codex has good combat troops, as do others.
Adding some HQ choices into a force change the rules that force uses. Like Pedro, who adds +1A to his squad when charging (I think).

Changing attributes is usually a bad idea.
Dropping WS to increase BS creates imbalance, and needs to be tempered with other changes to level it back out.
If you do, make sure it is applied cleanly, and written out clearly.

Maxipad wrote:
It was an example not what was intended. Disregard this whole thing because I can tell its just going to turn into a S. Storm of "I know this better than you"....

Actually it has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the fact that for every 1 person who creates a custom army with customized rules that are balanced, well thought out and slightly underpowered so that they get the feel they want without any undue advantages, there another 25 who create their csutomized rules to give them distinct advantages over others. The reason the 4th edition Space Marine codex variation rules worked is because they really only modified what was available for inclusion in your force, but still used the regular codex rules. Like one rule that enabled you to have choose a dread/mech heavy force by allowed dreads to chosen as Elite OR Heavy options in the force and a disad that wouldn't allow you to use droppods. None of them made any of the units better, just altered their availability so that you could build the exact marine army you wanted, but that each marine would still be the same as every other marine out there. Once you start fiddling with the units, changing stats, adding new and better weapons and adding in skills/abilities you open a can of worms where you can easily overpower a force with some minor changes.

Beyond that it isn't really the simple process you envision. If you play with the same group of friends all the time it will be easier, but THEY will all expect to have a say in your new rules and whether they think they are overpowered or not and whether the way they work is fair or not and so on. So *your* chapter ultimately really becomes the *group's* chapter project instead. If you don't play in a regular group your problems increase dramatically because 90% of your opponnents will just discount letting you use your homemade chapter with homemade rules completely out of hand. Of the other 10% maybe 8% will demand to see your rules and will still refuse to play you after review and that leaves maybe 2% of possible opponents will say "Sure let's see what they do". What is the point of that? A large segment of the player base discounts inclusion of any models from Forge World in any games they play and Forge World is a wholly owned subsidiary of GW, so your rules haven't got a chance.

Beyond that, what makes your chapter so special anyway that they cannot be fully represented already with an existing marine codex? Just using your simple example, that I know wasn't your plan, but an example by you of a more shooty chapter, you can easily represent that on the table by focusing on tactical squads and a full complement of devastators squads and vehicles with longer range fire options and just not include too many fast attack options which tend to lean more towards assault. Your feel on the table top will be full shooty, your fluff will talk about how your chapter limits its exposure to melee combat and it all fits right within the bounds of the rules as they exist without increasing the BS of the more shooty army. Never write new rules for something that can be easily accomplished with smart army selection instead. It is that simple. Between all of the different marine codecies, plus the option of allies, if you can't bring your fluff to life with all those options you might really be wanting to make uber marines instead.

Edit: And for one final note, it is silly to post up asking about the feelings of the community and then get cranky when the feelings of the community are not what you might have hoped they were.

Skriker