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My flgs runs an escalation league and for the most part its a really great group of guys who all play fair and are always there to have fun. However, there's one dude that comes in who started playing a seemingly broken list, beating everybody he fought. At first I just chalked it up to it being all talk and just people disgruntled about losing. Then I played him. Long story short, i looked into a couple of his previous lists and we found that, even being very generous with the upgrades and units i couldn't remember, this guy had been exceeding point values quite a bit. It was just hard to tell because its a horde army and because of all the points on upgrades.
Anyways, my question is how do we confront him about it? I plan on just asking to see his list before we play so I know if he slips anything in that shouldn't be there, but is there a better way? Are there any of you with previous experiences with this sort of thing?

Tell him politely. Assume the best, treat it as if it's a bookkeeping error on his part as opposed to intentional cheating. If he gets defensive point out that if he continues to try to bring illegal lists you can't let him continue playing. Avoid anger and avoid making accusations; be as calm and rational as you possibly can.

Man up and ask him for his list and codex and run the numbers.

People aren't hard to deal with. Just ask. If he flips out, kick him out of the league, as you wouldn't want to play him anyways.

This stuff is simple, honestly. I would've just answered this by saying 'grow a pair and deal with it as a mature person', but that would probably be construed as rude.

Don't tolerate it, not one bit. Don't give an inch with people like that, and squash it before it frustrates you and your fellow gamers to no end.

*Edit: Obviously, don't be rude or douchey, but don't beat around the bush excessively either.

Ask to see his list and break it down. Once you have proof make sure others are aware of your conversation.

 Blacksails wrote:
Man up and ask him for his list and codex and run the numbers.

People aren't hard to deal with. Just ask. If he flips out, kick him out of the league, as you wouldn't want to play him anyways.

This stuff is simple, honestly. I would've just answered this by saying 'grow a pair and deal with it as a mature person', but that would probably be construed as rude.

Don't tolerate it, not one bit. Don't give an inch with people like that, and squash it before it frustrates you and your fellow gamers to no end.

*Edit: Obviously, don't be rude or douchey, but don't beat around the bush excessively either.

I appreciate the advice, but I am trying to pussyfoot a little since the store runs the league and I want to be sure of my facts before I accuse him.

Get a copy of his list and the codex, check everything so you're absolutely sure that he's over in points and you're not just remembering wrong or being intimidated by a well-optimized list. For example, IG can fit in a frightening amount of stuff even at relatively low point levels compared to a battleforce-style marine list, and your first reaction might be "cheater!" if you're used to playing against battleforce marine lists.

And if you find out that he has been cheating, it's very simple: ban him from the store.

There's only one solution: Exterminatus

The OP can't ban anyone. What he should do is sound out the guy who runs the tournament, see if he cares that you're worried one contestant is running over points. A good organizer should be interested in making sure and do so in a discrete fashion.

The points cheats I've seen have mostly been in error, after all. Except the guy who habitually managed to have an extra 100 in 500 points - I can't see how you manage that when there's so few unit choices.

 Peregrine wrote:
Get a copy of his list and the codex, check everything so you're absolutely sure that he's over in points and you're not just remembering wrong or being intimidated by a well-optimized list. For example, IG can fit in a frightening amount of stuff even at relatively low point levels compared to a battleforce-style marine list, and your first reaction might be "cheater!" if you're used to playing against battleforce marine lists.

And if you find out that he has been cheating, it's very simple: ban him from the store.

That was my initial reaction to his army, then I remembered how much stuff you can cram into an IG list and I just thought nothing of it. I was a little butthurt about how good he did on me, but I just chalked it up to my inexperience vs his army. Then I was telling a friend about it and he pulled out the codex and started checking point costs. I hadn't really considered foul play until then.
The big problem is, the guys on the younger side, still old enough to know better but still young enough to change his habits. Im all for giving him a 2nd chance if I am right, which I hope I'm not.

Spetulhu wrote:
The OP can't ban anyone.

But he can tell the TO and/or store owner and strongly suggest a ban. And if that fails, every time the cheater tries to play a game he can inform their opponent about the cheating and encourage them to find someone else to play against.

A good organizer should be interested in making sure and do so in a discrete fashion.

No, the TO should do it in a public fashion. Name and shame the cheater, and ban them from the store.

The points cheats I've seen have mostly been in error, after all. Except the guy who habitually managed to have an extra 100 in 500 points - I can't see how you manage that when there's so few unit choices.

The OP seems to think that this has been a recurring problem. Being significantly over the point limit once is an understandable error. Being significantly over the point limit game after game is almost certainly cheating.

Outside the store I go to we have a cross that we hang cheaters from.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Outside the store I go to we have a cross that we hang cheaters from.

Not...sure...if....chaos?

Call them out on it. Seriously, cheaters thrive because people are too caught up with being "polite" that they don't say anything. I mean you should err on the side of caution, but if you KNOW he's cheating you need to tell him as much.

 Necroshea wrote:
Call them out on it. Seriously, cheaters thrive because people are too caught up with being "polite" that they don't say anything. I mean you should err on the side of caution, but if you KNOW he's cheating you need to tell him as much.

Step 1: Ask to see his list with point values. Any player who declines this is not playing fair.

Step 2: Assess if he is underpointing his stuff. If he is, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3: Inform the League Organizer.

So remarkably simple. Either the kid will have to fix his list, or be removed from the league.

 Peregrine wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
A good organizer should be interested in making sure and do so in a discrete fashion.

No, the TO should do it in a public fashion. Name and shame the cheater, and ban them from the store.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
A good organizer should be interested in making sure and do so in a discrete fashion.

No, the TO should do it in a public fashion. Name and shame the cheater, and ban them from the store.

There's another way to get it to stop without even having to get directly involved. Ask the TO to make it standard practice to have the players write up detailed lists complete with point values per unit from now on. That way he'll have to not only write up a list, but have the points value of each unit written down. You can then attempt to re-create the list within the points limit later on and find out for sure whether or not he was fudging things. If he's still cheating at that point then he's obviously not going to change his ways.

Beat the guy mercilessly with your fists, then snap his back over your knee. When he can't walk anymore, remember to violate his mother's forbidden zone in his bed. That's how we deal with cheats in my neck o the woods.
Also, just watched part of TDKR. Does it show?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Outside the store I go to we have a cross that we hang cheaters from.

You hang them from a cross? We crucify ours on gallows.

I've come across one before, surprisingly only one. I decided to play him on his own terms, I lost of course, but he was found out later by someone who knew the appropriate codex better than I.

It is difficult, but naming and shaming seems more like retribution than justice. They should be removed from the tournament, but there's no reason to go around every time you see them and shout "CHEATER!" you just look childish, even if you whisper it discretely to their opponent. It makes the assumption that people can't change which is a dangerous assumption to make.

Blacksails wrote:People aren't hard to deal with. Just ask. If he flips out, kick him out of the league, as you wouldn't want to play him anyways.

Mostly this.

Also, be united. Tell him that you're ALL going to refuse to play with him if he doesn't knock it off, rather than just you won't.

In any case, always remember to approach situations like this with pity, rather than anger or high-handedness.

yeahhh, alot of people in this thread are just over doing it.

Did none of you read the OP said that the 'cheater' was a youngish player, not an adult like many of us. He probably doesnt know any better.
Also that the OP doesnt have all the facts, and hasnt properly checked out the players list...

I'd certainly goto the TO and inform them that the I dont think that the player is playing fair, and then leave it in his hands. If they do nothing, it wasnt a tournament worth playing in in the first place.

Getting the kid banned from the store, and all kinds of stuff like that will just stop him from collecting, and wont teach him anything. Be mature, talk to the kid and explain to him why it isnt acceptable to cheat (if you find out he really is cheating intentionally)

Actually a good TO not only collects lists, but organises to have them checked. Reliance on players spotting issues during a match is unrealistic

Happens less with 40k, but fantasy there is a high error rate with magic items - costing and allowance. Double arcane on someone who isnt Manfred, for example.

Dragonzord wrote:
Did none of you read the OP said that the 'cheater' was a youngish player, not an adult like many of us. He probably doesnt know any better.

Unless you're talking about a five year old who doesn't belong in this game anyway, "youngish" doesn't mean stupid. If you're old enough to play 40k at all you're old enough to understand how to do simple addition and not go over the point limit. I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're just making honest mistakes game after game (and always by going over points, not by showing up with half the maximum point limit) and not just cheating.

Getting the kid banned from the store, and all kinds of stuff like that will just stop him from collecting, and wont teach him anything. Be mature, talk to the kid and explain to him why it isnt acceptable to cheat (if you find out he really is cheating intentionally)

If the kid hasn't figured out yet that cheating is wrong it's too late for polite explanations of how cheating is bad. Maybe the painful lesson of being kicked out of their favorite game will convince them to never cheat again before they cheat at something that really matters.

Actually nowadays you can't rely on people having basic mathematic skills, so a calculation error could be the reason. Especially as this is an escalation league, a mistake could have been made early on and then every list afterwards would be off. The best thing would be to inform the TO. If the TO is hallways competent he will check the list. If the list is incorrect then I would hope that the TO will talk to the offender in private. A lot of people are saying name and shame etc, but they should remember the old saying "Always leave your enemy their dignity." If you give the guy a chance to keep face you will be more likely to learn his lesson and turn around. If you accuse him in front of everyone he is more likely to flip out, storm out, never come back and blame everyone else for his actions. Also as this seems to be the first incident, give the benefit of the doubt. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

I disagree if it's kept private he may feel he got away with it and try again, public shaming will let everyone know what he's like and he won't try again because people will keep watching him.

Those without honour don't deserve pity, once a cheat always a cheat.

Sometimes being over on points can be a simple calculation error, i've made a few of those in the past, a couple of them quite embarasing. now i simply pass my list to my wife (an accountant) to quickly check the points, and provide a copy of the list with points values to my opponent and make sure the points values for everything are correct, and my army on the table matches my list.

If you think your opponent has gone over his agreed upon points limit, just ask to see his army list, take a calculator with you, and make sure that if the list is within the points value, the army on the tabletop matches the list.

If the points are wrong, ask your opponent if he was aware that his list is over, or he has units not on his list on the table. what you do from there really depends on his reaction, if it is a genuine mistake, he will probably blush and appologise, if its deliberate he might go emo on you, and you can inform the TO and let him take it from there.

In my experience, the majority of cases of someone 'cheating' are genuine mistakes with points values, errors with the rules and so forth, and are in no way deliberate or malicious. that said, i did go to one GT quite a while back, and the TO's disqualified 2 of my opponents, one for bringing weighted dice, and one for his list not matching the list he gave me, or the list he gave the TO's at the start, so be careful, but also be polite

It could be a simple error, I am REALLY bad at math and sometimes look over my list 9 or 10 times and will add up 5 different point values.. It happens, just ask for his list and add it up a couple of times to make sure that its fair. If he is a good person then he shouldnt take offense to it, I know I dont.

Ask him potilely that you saw some error in his math and that you make the same mistakes. lets make a battle just minus those guys that are pushing it over, and you will help with deciding if the person needs it.
Just kill them with kindness, they won't be rude to a nice person.
They don't want to seem like a jerk.

Get him to use battlescribe or army builder when constructing lists for a battle - the points costs will be displayed right on the printed page when it's all said and done.

Thanks for all the input. I'll take what you all said into consideration. Unfortunately the TO didn't do a very good job e.I. no set lists and little oversight other than recording who wins and loses.