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Just curious to see what other people think. With gamesworkshop continuous price increases, is molding your own mini's becoming a more viable option? Albeit there are probably copyright laws, but something not to close but still recognizably 40k, and IIRC in official; GW tourny's, scratch built models are allowed. Any thoughts?
As in recasting GW sculpts? Or making your own sculpt and casting that? If you re-cast GW models that's illegal (at least here in the US), although I have known people who have done it and gotten away with it.
I personally have nothing wrong with it if you make your own molds and sculpts (that can work with 40k) and cast them. At that point, you are just making your own mini's so...
washout77 wrote: As in recasting GW sculpts? Or making your own sculpt and casting that? If you re-cast GW models that's illegal (at least here in the US), although I have known people who have done it and gotten away with it.
I personally have nothing wrong with it if you make your own molds and sculpts (that can work with 40k) and cast them. At that point, you are just making your own mini's so...
Who is going to catch you, the fething thought police?
Illegal, probably. Will you "get away with it"? Unless you're selling them for profit on FeeBay, you would have to do something incredibly stupid to ever see an ounce of trouble for it.
And...yes, it's cheaper.
That said, don't re-cast GW stuff. Green stuff your own or build it out of card, then cast that. I'm referring to off-bits like Melta Guns that GW seems to think you're going to sell a kidney to afford. Sculpting an entire army worth of minis would likely be time prohibitive, unless your time is of little value.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/04 22:36:44
Yes, in the long run casting is cheaper than buying. But I wouldn't recommend re-casting GW minis. If you are interested in casting Your Own Miniatures then by all means. It takes a long time to make the rubber mold that you will use. A two part rubber mold takes around 12 hours to make, but once it's done the plastic only takes 15-20 minutes to harden properly.
Again, please only cast your own, sculpted miniatures.....
You need to look at how complex the mini is to cast. (how many molds, trouble involved)
How many will you need? (an average two part silicone mold will get about 70-90 pulls before degrading badly)
If the cost of time, silicone, resin, and hassle outweigh the cost of the the total number of the real deal... its not worth it... unless your up for a challenge.
"If you are not naughty you get a cookie. If you are naked, you get a cookie." - Insaniak, Dakka Mod
Its only cheaper if you value your time as nothing and intend to do enough of it to recoup setup costs to get started on it, otherwise you'll really only break even... unless were talking about forgeworld.
I speak from experience.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Down here In Baltimore they used to make minis and my uncle would go down to the factory and get used molds out of the trash to make GW minis, they look terrible but thats cause the mold is all worn down, but some of them were decent enough to use so I don't see why you couldn't do it your self
...because 'will I get caught' is the most important consideration when deciding whether or not to break the law...?
Casting GW's (or any other company's) models is illegal. Whether or not that matters is obviously up to the individual, but Dakka does not and can not endorse such activity.
Sculpting your own models and casting them is fine, although if they look too much like GW's models you start to wander into a grey area.
As for whether or not it's actually cheaper than buying new models... You might be surprised, particularly if you've never tried to do it before and are working it all out from scratch. It's a lot more time consuming and a lot harder to get good results than a lot of people think. If you have the time, it can be cheaper than buying new models, but only if you know what you are doing.
Don't go into it expecting it to be a magically quick and inexpensive way of building your miniature collection.
Just as a reminder, folks, please keep the discussion to the casting of your own work. We don't allow discussion of re-casting, in order to avoid potential legal troubles from certain trigger-happy companies.
Guardslayer wrote: Down here In Baltimore they used to make minis and my uncle would go down to the factory and get used molds out of the trash to make GW minis, they look terrible but thats cause the mold is all worn down, but some of them were decent enough to use so I don't see why you couldn't do it your self
This has genuinely been the most touching anecdote in all my years of miniature gaming.
I mean cast YOUR own, not recasting someone elses' hard work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/05 01:18:17
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
Thanks for the replies. I was just wondering about the price in the long term, and making my own guard regiment and basing stuff (mainly Sandbags). I just recall reading about how some did it before and got some pretty good results.
Unless you are planning to raise large armies then casting is not cheaper. The set up costs of rubber and resin and other stuff like mixing containers needs to be thought of.
What is good is if you find some hard to get piece like a guard backpack and cast multiples of that for your whole army.
GW isn't losing out as they don't sell such things (why?!) and you get to make a more interesting army.
Cheap second hand models are the way to go. Just tart them up from bitz sellers and maybe bits you've cast yourself. That way they're still tourney legal.
There are a few big hurdles to overcome if you want to cast your own minis.
1) Building the masters takes a lot of time and skill
2) You need to learn how to build molds. Looking at videos on youtube will point you in the right direction, but you will have to learn by doing.
3) Casting equipment is expensive (compared to buying an army from GW). Expect to spend about $2000 (US) on the basic equipment
4) Molding rubber is about $80 (US) for a galleon ($20/liter). You will use a lot of it while practicing
5) Resin is not expensive, but will still add up quickly in cost.
Here is some of the equipment you will need
1) A large compressor and air tank (500-1000 dollars, more if new)
2) A Pressure pot that can take a vacuum (about $400 used)
3) Clay
4) lots of Lego bricks
5) A high power vacuum pump
6) A large working area that does not get disturbed while casting is in progress. This area MUST be safe from kids and pets.
7) A respirator or dust mask
8) disposable gloves
9) lots and lots of rubber bands
Mohoc wrote: There are a few big hurdles to overcome if you want to cast your own minis.
If all you're casting is bits, you can get fine results with a $50 casting kit from the art supply store. The air compressor and pump are not necessary unless you are churning out boat loads of minis and don't have time to green stuff the bubbles.
Mohoc wrote: There are a few big hurdles to overcome if you want to cast your own minis.
1) Building the masters takes a lot of time and skill Too true.
2) You need to learn how to build molds. Looking at videos on youtube will point you in the right direction, but you will have to learn by doing. Also true, expect a steep learning curve. Start small.
3) Casting equipment is expensive (compared to buying an army from GW). Expect to spend about $2000 (US) on the basic equipment
Not necessarily. I started with only an Alumilite Super casting kit. @ $70
4) Molding rubber is about $80 (US) for a galleon ($20/liter). You will use a lot of it while practicing I have made around 30 two part molds and have used about a gallon. including screw ups.
5) Resin is not expensive, but will still add up quickly in cost. Again, not really. My mins (28mm) cost around $0.03 each
Here is some of the equipment you will need
1) A large compressor and air tank (500-1000 dollars, more if new)For HIGH QUALITY. Not needed for run of mill minis.
2) A Pressure pot that can take a vacuum (about $400 used))For HIGH QUALITY. Not needed for run of mill minis.
3) Clay )Comes in Alumilite kits. The good non-sulpher stuff.
4) lots of Lego bricks
5) A high power vacuum pumpFor HIGH QUALITY. Not needed for run of mill minis.
6) A large working area that does not get disturbed while casting is in progress. This area MUST be safe from kids and pets.
7) A respirator or dust mask
8) disposable gloves
9) lots and lots of rubber bands
All in all, this post is correct... if you would like to do more casting/molding as a hobby. If youre wanting to go on the cheap, and get decent results (mine are heads and shoulders above finecrapst) you do not need the EXPENSIVE equipment.
I tried multiple companys versions of casting kits and now that Ive found Alumilite, I'll never go back.
You can pick up the Super casting kit at Hobby Lobby for @$70. It includes Clay, Two LARGE bottles of resin, a pound of silicone, activator, and mold release (for keeping 2part molds seperate). Not to mention mixers, and measures.
Get this kit, your *easy first target* some legos and a sleeve of small bathroom cups. With this, and a little patience, you should be on the right track.
Tip: Wait until youve completed molds to cut fill holes, and cast a few to determine where bubbles are trapped before cutting vents.
"If you are not naughty you get a cookie. If you are naked, you get a cookie." - Insaniak, Dakka Mod
Mohoc wrote: There are a few big hurdles to overcome if you want to cast your own minis.
Spoiler:
1) Building the masters takes a lot of time and skill Too true.
2) You need to learn how to build molds. Looking at videos on youtube will point you in the right direction, but you will have to learn by doing. Also true, expect a steep learning curve. Start small.
3) Casting equipment is expensive (compared to buying an army from GW). Expect to spend about $2000 (US) on the basic equipment
Not necessarily. I started with only an Alumilite Super casting kit. @ $70
4) Molding rubber is about $80 (US) for a galleon ($20/liter). You will use a lot of it while practicing I have made around 30 two part molds and have used about a gallon. including screw ups.
5) Resin is not expensive, but will still add up quickly in cost. Again, not really. My mins (28mm) cost around $0.03 each
Here is some of the equipment you will need
1) A large compressor and air tank (500-1000 dollars, more if new)For HIGH QUALITY. Not needed for run of mill minis.
2) A Pressure pot that can take a vacuum (about $400 used))For HIGH QUALITY. Not needed for run of mill minis.
3) Clay )Comes in Alumilite kits. The good non-sulpher stuff.
4) lots of Lego bricks
5) A high power vacuum pumpFor HIGH QUALITY. Not needed for run of mill minis.
6) A large working area that does not get disturbed while casting is in progress. This area MUST be safe from kids and pets.
7) A respirator or dust mask
8) disposable gloves
9) lots and lots of rubber bands
All in all, this post is correct... if you would like to do more casting/molding as a hobby. If youre wanting to go on the cheap, and get decent results (mine are heads and shoulders above finecrapst) you do not need the EXPENSIVE equipment.
I tried multiple companys versions of casting kits and now that Ive found Alumilite, I'll never go back.
You can pick up the Super casting kit at Hobby Lobby for @$70. It includes Clay, Two LARGE bottles of resin, a pound of silicone, activator, and mold release (for keeping 2part molds seperate). Not to mention mixers, and measures.
Get this kit, your *easy first target* some legos and a sleeve of small bathroom cups. With this, and a little patience, you should be on the right track.
Tip: Wait until youve completed molds to cut fill holes, and cast a few to determine where bubbles are trapped before cutting vents.
Good tips, My first castings were done with the Hobby Lobby kit. I learned a lot, but it was not the level I wanted to stay at. Your point on making 30 two part molds with a galleon makes me concerned about the thickness of your molds. As someone that pressure casts, a must for high quality casting, my experience has been terrible with thin mold walls. They tend to warp and wear a lot faster. The OP was looking to build an army, not one or two models out of a mold. Then again, getting started in casting is just as expensive as any other part of the hobby. It can be as cheap or expensive as you want to make it.
Guardslayer wrote: Down here In Baltimore they used to make minis and my uncle would go down to the factory and get used molds out of the trash to make GW minis, they look terrible but thats cause the mold is all worn down, but some of them were decent enough to use so I don't see why you couldn't do it your self
This has genuinely been the most touching anecdote in all my years of miniature gaming.
I am not sure how I should feel about this but thanks.... I guess
I saw a guy who created his own 'nid MCs out of a bit of wire and some clay. He used the wire to make the frame of the MC, and then used the clay to build the model out.
It was not perfect but it cost him significantly less than $50 a trygon.
I always thought it was legal to recast parts for personal use, provided you aren't distributing or making any money from it? Pretty sure the whole point of products like Instant Mold is to let people duplicate bitz for their own use.
Pink Myst wrote: Also, keep in mind that the cost of 3D printers has been steadily coming down in price, and the supporting technology becoming more diverse.
Maybe one of these days really soon, you'll be able to sculpt your own model, 3D scan it, and then replicate in quantity on the printer..
People will be able to share their own sculpts as well, allowing anyone to sculpt models for anyone to use.
Oddly enough, when that occurs it will do one of two things to GW. They will either dramatically change their pricing scheme to be competitive, or they will be reduced to just selling books.
When you can build your own plastic tank for $3, or fork out $75 to GW for one, the answer will be simple.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/07 16:03:49
Heck, given how it costs $500-$700 bucks for an army today, I'm considering buying one. I've got 5 armies thus far, and if I can find a way to cheaply make new ones, I can have myself thousands of dollars over the next few years.
a b3ached whal3 wrote: Just curious to see what other people think. With gamesworkshop continuous price increases, is molding your own mini's becoming a more viable option? Albeit there are probably copyright laws, but something not to close but still recognizably 40k, and IIRC in official; GW tourny's, scratch built models are allowed. Any thoughts?
Casting your own minis, once established can be cheaper than buying from a manufacturer. The key though is "once established". If you are just looking for a cheaper alternative to GW products for a single army and that is it the start up costs just won't pan out into the "cheaper" area. If you plan on scultping and casting minis for a bunch of different armies, then your investment costs spread out a lot more and your overall costs per mini go down.
Beyond the cost you have some big questions:
1) Can you even scupt a mini to a useable standard that won't look like just a lump of plastic with arms sticking out like Frankenstein's monster? Sculpting isn't exactly a simple skill in the least.
2) Do you have the time to create all those sculpts, even if you are good at it, if it takes you 3 months of hard work to make a single scuplt, what you are saving in money you are losing in time? You will also need to be sure to think about modeling all the support weapons and the like that your troopers will need as well. So will need to have alternate sculpts to hold, say, a heavy weapon, plus the heavy weapons themselves sculpted.
3) Is there really no more affordable options that are readily available that wouldn't require you to make it all yourself?
If the answer to the first 2 is No and yes for the 3rd, don't bother and go shopping instead. Wargames Factory makes a decent more heroic scale 28mm kit of 18 greatcoat shocktrooper figs for IG usage for $20. They also have the equivilent of an IG heavy weapons squad with 3 weapon teams and 2 extra officer figures for $20 also. The only limit is using such items in official GW tourneys. If you want to go the "official" GW tourney route then you'll probably want to buy their minis.
**Edit: For me while I am a good painter and a capable musician, I buy minis because I know I completely lack the ability to sculpt them myself, let alone the time to do so. Same reason I pay someone to do the flooring replacement in my house, or to repair and/or replace my hvac system. Sure if I had the time I could probably do those things myself, but why should I muddle through it and probably screw it up when I can just pay someone else for their expertise? Yeah GW prices are getting crazy, but there are plenty of other manufacturers out there to buy minis from. **
Oh and despite what some of the less concerned people here say, stay away from recasting. You might get away with it, but you also might not and it is silly to go to jail or have your financial future completely destroyed over a bunch of gaming miniatures.
Skriker
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/07 16:55:31
CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War
labmouse42 wrote:Oddly enough, when that occurs it will do one of two things to GW. They will either dramatically change their pricing scheme to be competitive, or they will be reduced to just selling books.
Or, just as (despite dire predictions to the contrary) desktop printers didn't kill the publishing industry, nothing will actually change.
At least not for a while.
Makutsu wrote:I don't think casting for your own purpose is even illegal.
A common misconception, based on people misunderstanding 'fair use' (which actually only applies in the US anyway).
This has been hashed out at length on numerous occasions in the past, though, and there are various websites and blogs out there by people versed in IP law that cover just what Fair Use does and doesn't cover if you're inclined to go looking for it, so let's not revisit it here.
It's sometimes cheaper, depends on where you're doing it.
As far as the ethics concerns, if you create the model yourself you should be in the clear. I don't think GW has a copyright on bulky armor and lots of skulls yet.
You need the materials to make mould and to cast it up x times.
You will generally need around 10 units cast to equal the cost of buying the units (double this down under. Just because).
15+ and you are approaching cost-effectiveness.
50 is usually the limit per mould (certain resins degrade moulds faster than others).
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing
CSM 6k points 
CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points 
CSM 3.5k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 
2.3k
1500+ points W/D/L: 16/1/4
2500+ points W/D/L: 0/0/3
Crusade of the Emerald Heart - 2500
Vex Mont'ka Kau'ui - 2500
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