Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello Dakka!

I was just thinking, everyone says Imperial Guard are useless cannon fodder but if you actually think about it, most of the fluff about them describes them as a potent force.
I think that without space marines the Imperium might be able to limp on with just the guard as their defense, however I am SURE that without Imperial Guard the Imperium would fall.
My question is are Imperial guard given the credit they deserve?

Captain Knight

No. You see it all wrong, please report to your local Commisar.

It's actually written in their dex and other books that without them the IoM would fall.
And ye know, they have a tough job, carrying those bals of steel around with them all the time..

thats what I was saying, they don't get the credit they deserve

In order to be unsung they would have to be... unsung.

IRL, the Guard have tons and tons of fans. In the fluff, they're highly respected.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

And ye know, they have a tough job, carrying those bals of steel around with them all the time..

Yeah and believe me! That is a tough job.

Marines are a fart in space compared to the Imperial Guard.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

And ye know, they have a tough job, carrying those balls of steel around with them all the time..

Guardsmen: everyone of them have issues of BALLS O' STEEL. Not Yarrick, he had ADAMANTIUM BALLS. Marbo... he has POWER BALLS.

Both the IG and Space Marines are equally valuable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Both the IG and Space Marines are equally valuable.

As far as the codices and various books say, without IG the IoM would fall.
Without SM, the IoM could resist.

Without either the Imperium would have fallen long ago.

Space Marines can react quickly to threats and can also quell rebellions before they've even begun.

To say one or the other is dispensable is naive and wrong.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Without either the Imperium would have fallen long ago.

Space Marines can react quickly to threats and can also quell rebellions before they've even begun.

To say one or the other is dispensable is naive and wrong.

Again, false.
SM can be quick, but they can't do very much without numbers. IG regiments? Easily sostituibiles.
SM Chapters? Not soo much.
The IG is the Hammer, it will hit you veeeeery slowly, but you can be sure it will hit. AND HARD.
The SM are the sword, they can't perform prolunged campaigns without help.

And, please, if fluff says so...

There wouldn't be any planets to guard without the Space Marines. The Great Crusade would've been crushed almost immediately without the Primarchs and their Space Marine Legions.

Not to downplay the Guard at all, but just saying. The Imperium was built by Space Marines.

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
There wouldn't be any planets to guard without the Space Marines. The Great Crusade would've been crushed almost immediately without the Primarchs and their Space Marine Legions.

Not to downplay the Guard at all, but just saying. The Imperium was built by Space Marines.

Keyword WAS. The SM were the greatest force during the GC. Now... meh.

What? Given the proper application, single squads of Space Marines can hold cities on their own. They don't need numbers, they have mobility. Cripple the opposition with surgical strikes meant to scatter and divide.

The Imperial Guard conquers planets and quells rebellions in a span of months or even years.

Space Marines have been known to win battles in mere days. Kharn slaughtered a whole planet in a night with his Berzerkers.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
What? Given the proper application, single squads of Space Marines can hold cities on their own. They don't need numbers, they have mobility. Cripple the opposition with surgical strikes meant to scatter and divide.

The Imperial Guard conquers planets and quells rebellions in a span of months or even years.

Space Marines have been known to win battles in mere days. Kharn slaughtered a whole planet in a night with his Berzerkers.

Mhmh... well, SM could be whipped out by a massive force (let's see 10 marines against a Waaagh!), IG could resist and counterattack.
They IG can suffer more blows than Chapters.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
There wouldn't be any planets to guard without the Space Marines. The Great Crusade would've been crushed almost immediately without the Primarchs and their Space Marine Legions.

Not to downplay the Guard at all, but just saying. The Imperium was built by Space Marines.

Keyword WAS. The SM were the greatest force during the GC. Now... meh.

Imagine the current, major conflicts going on. Imagine them without Space Marines.

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
There wouldn't be any planets to guard without the Space Marines. The Great Crusade would've been crushed almost immediately without the Primarchs and their Space Marine Legions.

Not to downplay the Guard at all, but just saying. The Imperium was built by Space Marines.

Keyword WAS. The SM were the greatest force during the GC. Now... meh.

Imagine the current, major conflicts going on. Imagine them without Space Marines.

There is one Marine for each one of the Imperial Worlds. There are 10 or more regiments for any planets. Tell me, what is more efficient? A force that can take HUGE blows but still function or a Marine, and once he's killed your planet is fethed up?

It is explicitedly stated in the 6th edition rulebook that without Space Marines the Imperium would have fallen long ago. Without them, the Imperium would slowly crumble. Without the Imperial Guard the fall would be far more rapid. Without the Imperial Navy, it would likely disintegrate even more quickly.

Still, there does seem to a tendency to degrade the Imperial Guard and it's equipment a fair amount on forums (poorly trained, incompetent commanders, flashlights, cardboard armour). In the setting, they generally seem to get the respect they deserve. Some of the fans of the hobby have a less appreciative view of them.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

incompetent commanders, flashlights, cardboard armour

Creed, Straken, Chenkov, Al' Ahrem, Vance melon-fething Stubbs.
Flashlight? Yup, got tell it to my BANEBLAAAAAAAAAADEH (quote Diomedes DoW2).
Cardboard armour? DE have the same armour...

Macharius as well as one of the more notable commanders. Guy makes Creed look like a complete dumbass.

I'd like to see him return since I think he's only MIA and don't remember it being mentioned that he's actually dead. With the way the warp is, if it's not confirmed they could come back someday.

 n0t_u wrote:
Macharius as well as one of the more notable commanders. Guy makes Creed look like a complete dumbass.

I'd like to see him return since I think he's only MIA and don't remember it being mentioned that he's actually dead. With the way the warp is, if it's not confirmed they could come back someday.

IIRC 5th edition IG Codex said that he died after he lost a X battle which name I don't remember right now. After he lost, the Macharian Crusade went scattered and... well... nothing. It ended.

Methinks a lot of people's perception of the Imperial Guard comes from Dawn of War, in which they were a very underpowered army. Then came those posters and now you got the "Flashlight carrying, cardboard wearing idiots lead around by bigger idiots".

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Macharius as well as one of the more notable commanders. Guy makes Creed look like a complete dumbass.

I'd like to see him return since I think he's only MIA and don't remember it being mentioned that he's actually dead. With the way the warp is, if it's not confirmed they could come back someday.

IIRC 5th edition IG Codex said that he died after he lost a X battle which name I don't remember right now. After he lost, the Macharian Crusade went scattered and... well... nothing. It ended.

Nah, he got to the Halo Stars (Or something like that) and his men were too afraid to follow him.
Basically an Alexander the Great analogue really...

In order for the IG to be unsung heroes, they would have to be unsung, but everyone talks about how wonderful they are. The people who see the IG as cannon fodder are the minority. (Personally I find the IG more compelling the weaker they are, but even I admit they are really good cannon fodder.)

You could consider individual guardsmen unsung heroes because individual guardsmen go unsung, as it were-- a billion heroic deeds unknown, yet no less heroic for the lack of telling.

This unlike most Astartes (aside from Grey Knights), where every deed is celebrated.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Still, there does seem to a tendency to degrade the Imperial Guard and it's equipment a fair amount on forums (poorly trained, incompetent commanders, flashlights, cardboard armour).

All of these things are true, which is what makes them so awesome: they have all those disadvantages, and they overcome them and HOLD THE LINE.

Bludbaff wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Still, there does seem to a tendency to degrade the Imperial Guard and it's equipment a fair amount on forums (poorly trained, incompetent commanders, flashlights, cardboard armour).

All of these things are true, which is what makes them so awesome: they have all those disadvantages, and they overcome them and HOLD THE LINE.

They aren't actually.They overcome to disadvantage of being human in a universe where genetically engineered armour plated super beings have squabbles that lay waste to half the galaxy...

The real unsung heroes are the lost and the damned, if your in the guard and its a black crusade most likely you'll be killed by a cultist, mutant, traitor guard, or some of the Imperial Army left over from the Horus Heresy that haven't aged in the warp.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Both the IG and Space Marines are equally valuable.

As far as the codices and various books say, without IG the IoM would fall.
Without SM, the IoM could resist.

Grey Templar is correct, I think you fail to grasp the modus operandi of the SM. Yeah SM may be few in number compared to guard, but they are like modern Spec Ops like SAS, Navy Seals and JTF2. They carry out precision ops that dramatically tip the favour in a battle towards the IOM. They don't do prolonged campaigns, that is the IG jobs. Hence they have there massive level of autonomy compared to IG to pick and choose there operations. IG are the line fighters that bring there slow moving yet inexorable amount of men and firepower to bear. SM use maximum amount of force at key timing to the greatest effect, then they move on. They are not comparable forces in the slightest.

Few in number?

I think you may not bethinking too clearly on the matter.

A hive world recruits at least a thousand times more guardsmen every year than there are Astartes-- and the trillions of people that aren't being recruited are working in manufactorums to produce arms, tanks, and other equipment and necessities for them as well.

The yearly miltiary-industrial output of a single hive world is enough to equal or exceed the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes military force and then some.

Just one world.