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blunts are supposed to be immune to the warp and create a null bubble around themselves as a result of a genetic mutation. bits of fluff have hinted that strong enough psykers can at least detect them, and maybe affect them (Magnus at the council of nikea, for example). other bits of fluff have shown that the null zone can be turned on and off technologically (comes up a lot in the ravenor books). so, just how much of a psychic onslaught can an Untouchable take before their warp immunity fails them? are some stronger than others? once an blunt has been burned out, can they become untouchable again or is that it? and just how do you use technology to turn off warp immunity, anyway? shouting out the warp I could see (that's what geller fields do), but turning off an anti-warp aura? magic! wait, but that's not supposed to work on blunts... hrm

Some old fluff says that the potency of a null is measured on a scale like psykers, starting with Sigma and going down to Omega minus. So the variability of their effects is probably down to them having different strength levels.

It can also be trained to be stronger/more effective, and enhanced by technology, according to the fluff behind the Culexis Temple.

There's always Jurgen, he could shut down an Old One artifact just by standing in the same room with it. Of course I think his powers were more of "as strong as the plot requires" rather than a legitimate guide.

It would be hilarious if he was an omega minus the whole time.

Omega Minus if memory serves, is a blank on such a scale as to be a threat to Emperor level psykers. Or is that a Black Pariah?

 Kain wrote:
Omega Minus if memory serves, is a blank on such a scale as to be a threat to Emperor level psykers.

Omega Minus are Culexis level Blanks.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Omega Minus if memory serves, is a blank on such a scale as to be a threat to Emperor level psykers.

Omega Minus are Culexis level Blanks.

Ah right so it's just the Black Pariah who broke the scale.

They discuss the blunts being much like a living thing without a soul, a maw or black hole for psy energy to fall into without end.

Need to find specific reference but it was likened to Slanesh feeding on Eldar souls: horrific to face for the psi gifted.

Unsure how you "remove" a power like this when it is described as an unnatural something missing. Bind to them a soul?

 Kain wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Omega Minus if memory serves, is a blank on such a scale as to be a threat to Emperor level psykers.

Omega Minus are Culexis level Blanks.

Ah right so it's just the Black Pariah who broke the scale.

Black Pariah was a bit of a plot contrivance, yeah.

This is another of those fluff bits that is annoyingly inconsistent.

Take Eisenhorn as an example. When he first recruited his blank sidekick Bequin he was feeling stressed just being in the same room as her, but as the series progressed he merely paid lip-service to this and parts where she actually affected his state of mind by her presence became very rare. On the other hand, Jurgen (Cain series) causes Amberley Vails's sanctioned psyker to start convulsing and panicking. So maybe the more disciplined the psyker is, and the more willpower they have, the more easily they can dismiss the anxiety and revulsion?

Also, at one point Eisenhorn shuts down a psyker by causing an electromagnetic pulse, theorising that this impedes the bioelectric activity caused by using psychic powers. Bearing in mind that 40K is science fantasy, maybe there's a bit of technobabble somewhere saying that blanks with limiter devices somehow use them to shut down part of the brain that gives them their blankness.

Another theory I would throw out is that maybe blanks generate a field that pushes the warp away. In that case perhaps limiter cuffs and suchlike contain this anti-warp field and greatly reduce its range. That way they might still be able to cancel a psyker if they got close enough.

TOo bad you can't knock out psykers with EMP grenades

In the Ravenor series a blank loses his powers. So it has to be something that can be eroded if enough pressure is applied.

Jurgen never seems to even dip, not even when faced with Daemon Princesses and the hive mind.

right, I've read all of those references. hence my confusion

The nature of the warp means that all psykrs and blanks have their own unique quirks about their powers/inherent abilities.

 Talizvar wrote:
They discuss the blunts being much like a living thing without a soul, a maw or black hole for psy energy to fall into without end.

Need to find specific reference but it was likened to Slanesh feeding on Eldar souls: horrific to face for the psi gifted.

Unsure how you "remove" a power like this when it is described as an unnatural something missing. Bind to them a soul?

Well, in the Abnetverse, they have handy dandy suppressor collars.

 Melissia wrote:
Omega Minus are Culexis level Blanks.

Where is this fluff from, exactly?

Untouchables can be "burnt out" if exposed to a powerful warp signature for long enough. Example being Ravenor's Untouchable losing his blank aura due to spending so much time around a greater daemon (was months to years iirc).

 Fezman wrote:
Another theory I would throw out is that maybe blanks generate a field that pushes the warp away. In that case perhaps limiter cuffs and suchlike contain this anti-warp field and greatly reduce its range. That way they might still be able to cancel a psyker if they got close enough.

This is similar to my own interpretation: beings with a positive warp presence are like gravity wells from the warp's perspective, while beings with a negative warp presence would be like an inverted gravity well - a gravity hill, if you will. Positive warp presences draw the warp towards the materium, in most cases not doing a whole lot, but with more powerful ones causing reality to warp according to their will, and providing a thin enough barrier for daemons to break through. Blanks have the opposite effect, increasing the distance between the warp and the materium, causing discomfort to beings with positive warp presences (why even normal humans find them off putting; almost all humans are psykers, just far too weak to be classed as such, though still able to influence reality through particularly fanatic acts of belief) and blocking the effects of the warp being drawn through.

I find this a clean and easy way to visualize the relationship between the different effects, and while it's clearly an oversimplification, it does a nice job of explaining what we see when it comes to psykers and blanks.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Another theory I would throw out is that maybe blanks generate a field that pushes the warp away. In that case perhaps limiter cuffs and suchlike contain this anti-warp field and greatly reduce its range. That way they might still be able to cancel a psyker if they got close enough.

This is similar to my own interpretation: beings with a positive warp presence are like gravity wells from the warp's perspective, while beings with a negative warp presence would be like an inverted gravity well - a gravity hill, if you will. Positive warp presences draw the warp towards the materium, in most cases not doing a whole lot, but with more powerful ones causing reality to warp according to their will, and providing a thin enough barrier for daemons to break through. Blanks have the opposite effect, increasing the distance between the warp and the materium, causing discomfort to beings with positive warp presences (why even normal humans find them off putting; almost all humans are psykers, just far too weak to be classed as such, though still able to influence reality through particularly fanatic acts of belief) and blocking the effects of the warp being drawn through.

I find this a clean and easy way to visualize the relationship between the different effects, and while it's clearly an oversimplification, it does a nice job of explaining what we see when it comes to psykers and blanks.

And also works very well in combination with what we actually know about relativistic physics at the same time. I approve.

Problem with being a blank is while it hurts the pysker nearby, your probably just going to annoy him/her/it enough to conjure some very REAL fire/force/daemons/floating sledgehammer to kill you and therefore nullify the annoyance, depending on the psykers abilities being a blank could just stick a target on your head.

Also remember while a blank interrupts the psykers link with the warp, once the psyker has created a physical affect, such as the aforementioned fire/force/daemons/floating sledgehammer their kinda screwed.

Daemons are also hurt by Blanks, they have trouble even EXISTING around them.

Warpfire has no effect on blanks, either.

I think that would depend on the daemon, and as for warpfire having no effect on them, that sounds odd, in Pariah the main characters blank status seemed to be little more than an annoyance to... just about everyone I mean the slannesh legionnaire armour didn't just combust whenever it got near her and that was entirely warp based. Either that or Dark Mechanicus have been wasting a lot of time developing power armour that bursts into rose petals whenever you want them to.

 Melissia wrote:
Omega Minus are Culexis level Blanks.

No but really Melissia, where is this fluff from? I know it exists on lexicanum, but I haven't seen it in the material myself.

danp164 wrote:
Problem with being a blank is while it hurts the pysker nearby, your probably just going to annoy him/her/it enough to conjure some very REAL fire/force/daemons/floating sledgehammer to kill you and therefore nullify the annoyance, depending on the psykers abilities being a blank could just stick a target on your head.

Also remember while a blank interrupts the psykers link with the warp, once the psyker has created a physical affect, such as the aforementioned fire/force/daemons/floating sledgehammer their kinda screwed.

Depends. A psyker can't throw fireballs at a blank, or strangle him telekinetically, or put him in a box of force, or anything of the sort, because the blank just isn't affected by that. If the psyker just conjures up a huge mess of psychic fire... well, the psyker risks setting himself on fire but, since it's psychic fire, the blank isn't even singed,and just walks through it. Sure, the building they're in could collapse around them, but... this is the Imperium. How often do you see a wooden shack? Dropping the sledgehammer on his head from a great height should work, but one could not telekinetically lift it and swing it at the blank, because the effect that lifts it ends long before the hammer gets near the blank.

Remember, they suppress psychic effects in an area, varying by their power level.

The solution is like all those old RPG discussions of ways to bypass magic resistance.

Levitate rock or other nearby existing hard object (so it is not conjured up from the warp), and release (not throw or propel) it over the target at a height sufficient to kill and sufficient to be out of the range of the untouchable's effect. Some adjustment and aiming might be necessary to account for target movement. The object would be falling under gravity with no warp power influencing it anymore in any way. Untouchables may have resistance/immunity to warp conjured objects or energy, but they are vulnerable to realspace objects and weapons. A natural boulder or girder falling on top of them due to gravity would be lethal.

Iracundus wrote:
The solution is like all those old RPG discussions of ways to bypass magic resistance.

Levitate rock or other nearby existing hard object (so it is not conjured up from the warp), and release (not throw or propel) it over the target at a height sufficient to kill and sufficient to be out of the range of the untouchable's effect. Some adjustment and aiming might be necessary to account for target movement. The object would be falling under gravity with no warp power influencing it anymore in any way. Untouchables may have resistance/immunity to warp conjured objects or energy, but they are vulnerable to realspace objects and weapons. A natural boulder or girder falling on top of them due to gravity would be lethal.

True, but all this depends on the guy knowing:

1. what a blank/untouchable/pariah actually is (I think it's said they are significantly rarer than even psykers, so there's a very good possibility that your average chaos guy doesn't know they even exist).
2. Know that blank is coming for them/what they look like
3. have an appropriate spot planned for an ambush or assasination

If your average psyker meets your average blank (not even one of those turbocharged assassin temple ones) without all three pieces of knowledge above the fight will probably look something like this:

psyker: puny fool, you defy me? (throws fireball/telepathic scream/telekinetic force bolt)
*power glances off blank*
blank: you lose (shoots psyker in face with weapon of choice)

Not saying it wouldn't work or hasn't been done, but I don't think it happens often.

On that subject, imagine the blank didn't know they were a blank, their first realization of this is when the warp fire suddenly parts around them and they're fine.

you could most certainly toss things at a blank telekinetically. no need to get fancy with holding it over their heads. you just have to be able to provide enough momentum and direction to the object before it enters the blank's aura and you lose control over it. physics should take care of the rest, if your aim is good

telekines seem like the only flavor of psyker that could really give a blank problems... aside from the odd psyker that's wise enough to carry a gun, that is :p

Some psykers are so powerful that Blanks pose absolutely no threat to them, as has been said.

The Sisters of Silence could not so much as inconvenience Magnus the Red, nor could a Pariah mountain (Seriously).

danp164 wrote:
I think that would depend on the daemon

Nope.

Daemons in real-space are unstable, only holding their physical forms through sheer force of will-- and around Blanks, they have severe problems holding their physical form.

danp164 wrote:
and as for warpfire having no effect on them, that sounds odd, in Pariah the main characters blank status seemed to be little more than an annoyance to... just about everyone

Which contradicts every other depiction of them, even the RPGs.

That's like saying "Well this one psyker could barely warm up a cup of coffee, I have a hard time believeing that other psykers can toss fireballs and set cities on fire."

Some psykers are so powerful they can override Pariah invulnerability.

No but really, why won't you answer my question?