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The list below comes to 1757 points of the 1850. I have 93 pts for upgrades or extra units. What do you Dakkanaughts think I am missing or what would you change / add?

I think I am missing some anti air really and also more high strength shooting. The Dark Angels codex is a little light in that department unless I want to pay a fairly large amount of points.

A Nephilim Jetfighter would be good but I would have to drop points somewhere, the only place I can think of is by ditching the Veteran Squad which would leave Azrael pondering the meaning of being lonely...

HQ
1x Azrael

Elites
5x Company Veterans - 5x Bolt Pistol and Chainsword - Rhino (Storm Bolter)
1x Dread - Multimelta, Power Fist with Heavy Flamer - Drop Pod
1x Dread - Multimelta, Power Fist with Heavy Flamer - Drop Pod

Troops
5x Deathwing Terminators - Heavy Flamer
5x Deathwing Terminators - Heavy Flamer
1x Ravenwing Attach Squadron - 6x Bikes (All Boltguns), Attack Bike (Heavy Bolter), Land Speeder (2x Heavy Bolters)
1x Ravenwing Attach Squadron - 6x Bikes (All Boltguns), Attack Bike (Heavy Bolter), Land Speeder (2x Heavy Bolters)

Heavy Support
1x Whirlwind
1x Whirlwind


Comments / help appreciated!!!

Are you playing towards a Deathwing list, or a dual wing or multi wing list?

I ask because you're using DW as your troops, you might be better off dropping the vets and whirlwinds, and buffing up with Ravenwing. Also, I would drop the heavy flammers in favor of CML. More versatile. Give the carrier a SS/TH and watch him live until the end of the game and keep popping off those missile shots with his 2+/3++ saves.

If you're looking to go full DW, I'd recommend giving Azrael a TH/SS and a full squad attached to him with two heavy flammers, and use him to precision strike them onto whatever squishies you want to burn. In addition, take one dread in a pod with the flammer arm and a twin heavy flammer arm and take the other one as mid-long range support.

DW strike half your termies in, Azrael precision drops onto said squishies with his burninator squad. Flammers auto hit and reroll wounds that turn. Same with the ball of fire dreadnought that Drop pod strikes in as well. Well his twin linked arm does at least. Support it with whatever you like.

If you want a multi wing with some air support, perhaps think about Dev squad with some flak missile launchers, or perhaps a scout squad with the Aegis line perhaps?

Just some thoughts.

I didn't think Azrael could deep strike with terminators?

Azrael can't deepstrike.

I would suggest dropping the dreads adn vets (maybe keep 1 dread)

Then I would either add more termies or more bikes and then get special weapons on the bikes plasma or melta first. If you are using Azrael its best either to go dual-wing or greenwing with command squads and banners

Shingen wrote:
I didn't think Azrael could deep strike with terminators?

Yes. He would start the game attached to the 10 man squad, and be held in reserves. Both Azrael and the squad can DW strike, and since Azrael is attached to the ten man, they gain the benefit of not scattering upon Deepstriking. This, paired with the DW assault rules for having twin linked when they come in, allow you to surgically place them exactly where you want them without fear of being destroyed or lost, i.e. 1" away in order to maximize your flamers casualties. Just make sure you position those flamers correctly when you place them, you don't want to burn your own guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haha, oh wait, my bad. Belial. That entry should be Belial not Azrael. It's been a long morning at work with zero coffee.

To the above I think you have Belial and Azrael mixed up. Azrael cannot deepstrike as he is not in terminator armor.

Belial is the terminator HQ that allows for no scatter on deepstrike.

 FirePainter wrote:
To the above I think you have Belial and Azrael mixed up. Azrael cannot deepstrike as he is not in terminator armor.

Belial is the terminator HQ that allows for no scatter on deepstrike.

You are correct sir, as I corrected myself just now. Thank you.

We'll I played with the marines for the first time tonight. Belial and 3 deathwing squads. Stars of the game? The 2 Dreads.

Not sure on terminators, I like seeing an opponent bring them against me and they died very easily. Some unlucky rolls but 1 squad of 5 died to a single plasma cannon shot. Total waste of points if I'm honest so back to the drawing board I think.

I think I'll exchange them for whirlwinds, preds and jetfighters.

I'm very biased towards Ravenwing, so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but 5 Ravenwing black knights beats 5 deathwing terminators in my mind! They're roughly the same points but in a ranges fight the knights will always win! Add to that the cover save from jink, the addition from skilled rider, the speed, the scout and outflank possibilities, the speed, the twin linked plasma talons, the added toughness, oh and did I mention the speed? They'd give terminators a horrific time, and I'd almost guarantee they'd come out on top!

Just a thought! I know they're not scoring but 2 full attack squadrons will almost cover that! You could add a HQ on a bike, take a command squad and take the banner of devastation (a new love of mine with bikes! Thanks Hex!) making your attack squadrons bolters be 4 shots at 24"!! That's some half decent crowd control!

Sounds good to me. Think I'll go bike, speeders, dreads and some flyers. Should be fUN to play.

Is sammaels land speeder worth it or stick to bike?

If you take sammael, then I'd stick to his bike. Personally, I think he has better weapons, better survivability, and poses a higher threat with more battlefield options. Take a S10 hit for example - it could cause a pen hit on the speeder - you lose sammael to a single hit. On the jet bike he has the same number of saves, bus has eternal warrior. He also has the option of running a Ravenwing command squad with him - add in an apoc for some feel no pain goodness he becomes uber tough, flying around popping off his plasma cannon! Add a darkshroud in behind him and along with skilled rider he has a 3+ cover save!

Okay so how about this list, comes to 1849...

Seems to have everything I would need in an 1850 list.

> 8 Separate units with Multi Melta's for AV (12 Total).
> 4 Flamers for killing swarms.
> Darkshroud for its Stealth.
> Auto pass hit and run.


HQ
Sammael
5x Ravenwing Command Squad - Apothecary, Ravenwing Champion, Ravenwing Company Banner (I am assuming the Apothecary isnt a separate unit and just an upgrade?)

Troops
Ravenwing Attack Squad - 6x Ravenwing Biker (1x Flamer), 1x Attack Bike (Multi Melta), 1x Land Speeder (2x Multi Melta)
Ravenwing Attack Squad - 6x Ravenwing Biker (1x Flamer), 1x Attack Bike (Multi Melta), 1x Land Speeder (2x Multi Melta)
Ravenwing Attack Squad - 6x Ravenwing Biker (1x Flamer), 1x Attack Bike (Multi Melta), 1x Land Speeder (2x Multi Melta)
Ravenwing Attack Squad - 6x Ravenwing Biker (1x Flamer), 1x Attack Bike (Multi Melta), 1x Land Speeder (2x Multi Melta)

Fast Attack
Ravenwing Darkshroud - Assault Cannon

Heavy Support
Predator - Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Random Question!!!

If I combat squad the bikes I assume I would have 4 squads with a sergeant and 4 squads without? You don't get another sergeant in the other squads?

Sorry if that's a bit of a silly question but I don't know the marine rules very well!!!

The apoc is just an upgrade to an existing champion.

You lack the best unit in the dex: Black Knights. Look at them. Then look again. Those guys are the best you can field.
Drop 1-2 Attack Squads and take Black Knights instead.
For the bikes a Banner of Devastation kicks the feth out of stuff. It makes the relentless bikes a Salvo 4. That means every bike puts out 4 shots at 24" range... Say you have 6x2 bikes, thats 48 boltershots.
You can Combat Squad the Attack Bike and the Speeders to operate independetly.

The most common setup for the Speeders is HB and TML - gives the fragile Speeders a long range fire support role. The MM Variant is most used to DS and blow up a vehicle or two, then die in the retaliation.
If you switch out the MM Speeders to above setup, you might want to give 1 Squad the Flamers and the other Squad 2 Meltas to increase your anti vehicle count since you lost some from the Speeders.

Definaltey drop the AssCan from the Darkshroud. This thing is the priority target for your opponent. Therefore you want to turbo boost it every turn to increase its cover save, you'll never shoot it.

The Pred doesn't really add anything to that list - it#s just gonna draw all the AV fire your opponent has and die immediately.

Combat Squadding the bikes works as follows: You get 6 bikes, including the seargeant, a separate attack bike and a separate Speeder, if I'm not mistaken,

In total... For 1850 you can get Sammael, a Command Squad with the Dakka Banner, a Libby on a Bike for support, 3 full Squads with Meltas, Bikes with Meltas and the mentioned HB/TML Speeders plus 4 extra Black Knights and a Darkshroud.

Ok, a lot of what was just said is really really good advice! If you're going for a Ravenwing army then I would also drop the pred!! It doesn't help and is valuable black knights points!

Combat squads - this IS how it works, you get;
2 bikers + sergeant,
3 bikers,
Attack bike,
Land speeder. That's 4 scoring units. So, in your list, if you combat squad you'll get 16 scoring units!!

I'd honestly look at not taking multi meltas on the speeders, you want to keep them away from the enemy! Far away! Typhoons are awesome for long ranged fire support and are pretty all rounded!

So here's what I would do, drop the pred and drop one attack squad. You'll still have 12 scoring units with combat squads.

I'd then make the 3 speeders typhoons, and he's right - no assault cannon on the shroud. Turbo boost that every round for 2+ cover!

Ok, what to do with saves points - put a melta gun in each attack squad, it means when you combat squad down, one group of 3 has a Meltagun, 1 group of 3 has the flamer you then have set purposes.

Then upgrade that Ravenwing banner to a banner of devastation. With your level of bike mounted boltguns that banner will be awesome! Keep the units close, each bike licks out 4 shots at 24"! It's a lot more useful in this list than hit and run. Anything left over? Plow it into a unit of black knights. Those guys really are one of the best units in the dex! They are so so so good! Keep them near the shroud for a number tough and survivable unit!

Hey, these are just my thoughts. I like the list, I just think there's some wasted points that need tweaking! It's opinion though! It might be wrong ;-)

I shoved the pred in because I had the spare points

I was actually going to stick a Whirlwind in instead but I decided against it because of the minimum shooting range which would drive me up the wall!!!

Let me have another go, back in 5

Thanks for the comments guys...

Hey, no problems dude!! You can leave it as is if happy, but we'll try and help you build the most competitive and fun list you can! I really think you'll enjoy black knights!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me know how you get on with tweaking!

Is it worth taking a Techmarine on a bike for "Bolster Defences"?

I figure, 9 black knights, Sammael and a Techmarine will ruin someones day.

Shingen wrote:
Is it worth taking a Techmarine on a bike for "Bolster Defences"?

I figure, 9 black knights, Sammael and a Techmarine will ruin someones day.

......bolster defences has absolutely no effect on bikes at all, and is an utter waste of points in a Ravenwing build!

Right well I wont do that then

The only purpose for a Tech is the PFG he can carry. But in RW lists a Libby can do the same and is generally more useful.

Haha! Sorry for being brutal dude!!

Let me explain,

Jink is a type of cover save, it isn't an improvement on a cover save! So, if you drive your bike behind 4+ cover then you would use that as it's better than a standard jink save! Things you want to help jink is skilled rider, stealth, shrouded as they improve cover saves!

So, black knights!

Moving is 5+ cover because of jink,
Skilled rider is +1 cover
A darkshroud gives them stealth (+1 cover)
That's a total of 3+ cover - the same you'd get with bolster. The problem with bolster is it is a single piece of terrain so you have to stay still, with using and improving the jink save it becomes a mobile save that goes with them everywhere! See the bonus? The only HQ other than sammael worth thinking about is a librarian - on a bike.

Sorry for being brutal! :-(

Nothing brutal about it mate, that helps a lot

Ok buddy! I'm just aware of how people can come across on here. I can't stand being told what to do! So I try not to do the same, I like to just say what I would do... For what it's worth!

Worth more than anything else, I dont mind constructive crit etc, I have a hard skin

Okay I changed it to the following, it suits the way I play more than anything plus a few tips of yours.

Command Squad - Dev Standard, Apoc
Sammael on bike
3x Ravenwing Squadrons - 6 bikes, 1 flamer, 1 melta, 1 land speeder (twin melta), 1 attack bike (heavy bolter)
1 darkshroud with just the heavy bolter
3x land speeders with melta
2x whirlwind


Some of your ideas are in there, like the melta / flamer squads, standard of dev etc and some of the ideas I came up with, i love multi melta's so they are staying, however I did drop the attack bikes down to heavy bolters.

It's taking shape - as long as it's stuff you like and things you want to play with. It's ashame the attack bikes have lost the meltas, those dudes excel at tank hunting, but I am also a melta fan. Any room for typhoons? Those missiles on speeders are really good? Though I'm sensing you're not sold on the idea? I also get the feeling you don't have any love for the knights? The dev banner with all those bikes will be awesome though!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you're interested, I'm kit bashing a bike librarian over in the modelling section of the forum!

Too lazy to read though all the comments, just gonna comment on the innitial list.

Lol'd at the veterans withCS&BP. lol. why.Just don't.Especially in a rhino.

I rarely find Azreal useful apart from the whole Dualwing thing, otherwise just take the apropriate HQ, or better yet Libbies.HQ part isn't the place where you want to spend with DA.

Termies, especially DW, dont really benefit from heavy flamer. Itlly probably get 1-2 template shots at best. Also, doesnt benefit from splitfire. Take Assault Cannon to kill tanks and other nasty things.

12 bikers with just boltpistols is a waste. If you want to keep them as cheap as possible, park them behind a terrain and at last possible moment turboboost to objective. Otherwise take meltas, plasmas, or better yet, just tspend the points on Black knights.Theyre dope.

I never freaking ever take landspeeders without rockets. 24" with 10/10/10 is just bad. Also,heavy bolters are meh at best, so without rockets they are seriously outperformed in points by pretty much everything. Well, aside from chainsword veterans, ofc.(same thing for melta speeders)

And dev banner just gives more bolters. Whoptifuckingdoo. If it can be killed by a bolter, it can be killed with impact hits, sarges with powerweps/fists, termies and everything else.

To me, ravenwing is strong because of speed and blackknights, not because of that redicilous banner.

vWreN wrote:
Too lazy to read though all the comments, just gonna comment on the innitial list.

Lol'd at the veterans withCS&BP. lol. why.Just don't.Especially in a rhino.

I rarely find Azreal useful apart from the whole Dualwing thing, otherwise just take the apropriate HQ, or better yet Libbies.HQ part isn't the place where you want to spend with DA.

Termies, especially DW, dont really benefit from heavy flamer. Itlly probably get 1-2 template shots at best. Also, doesnt benefit from splitfire. Take Assault Cannon to kill tanks and other nasty things.

12 bikers with just boltpistols is a waste. If you want to keep them as cheap as possible, park them behind a terrain and at last possible moment turboboost to objective. Otherwise take meltas, plasmas, or better yet, just tspend the points on Black knights.Theyre dope.

I never freaking ever take landspeeders without rockets. 24" with 10/10/10 is just bad. Also,heavy bolters are meh at best, so without rockets they are seriously outperformed in points by pretty much everything. Well, aside from chainsword veterans, ofc.(same thing for melta speeders)

And dev banner just gives more bolters. Whoptifuckingdoo. If it can be killed by a bolter, it can be killed with impact hits, sarges with powerweps/fists, termies and everything else.

To me, ravenwing is strong because of speed and blackknights, not because of that redicilous banner.

.....yeah, this guys a douche!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

vWreN wrote:
Too lazy to read though all the comments, just gonna comment on the innitial list.

Lol'd at the veterans withCS&BP. lol. why.Just don't.Especially in a rhino.

I rarely find Azreal useful apart from the whole Dualwing thing, otherwise just take the apropriate HQ, or better yet Libbies.HQ part isn't the place where you want to spend with DA.

Termies, especially DW, dont really benefit from heavy flamer. Itlly probably get 1-2 template shots at best. Also, doesnt benefit from splitfire. Take Assault Cannon to kill tanks and other nasty things.

12 bikers with just boltpistols is a waste. If you want to keep them as cheap as possible, park them behind a terrain and at last possible moment turboboost to objective. Otherwise take meltas, plasmas, or better yet, just tspend the points on Black knights.Theyre dope.

I never freaking ever take landspeeders without rockets. 24" with 10/10/10 is just bad. Also,heavy bolters are meh at best, so without rockets they are seriously outperformed in points by pretty much everything. Well, aside from chainsword veterans, ofc.(same thing for melta speeders)

And dev banner just gives more bolters. Whoptifuckingdoo. If it can be killed by a bolter, it can be killed with impact hits, sarges with powerweps/fists, termies and everything else.

To me, ravenwing is strong because of speed and blackknights, not because of that redicilous banner.

.....yeah, this guys a douche!

Haha +1!

On to the actual list and discussion,

I'm still wanting to run the Dakka banner inside a LRC with two RAS with melta's, plasma's, AB's and Land Speeders backup by RWBK's, a Biker Libby, Sammael and a squad of Dev's. The only thing holding me back is the notion (or at least, my perception) of their low model count. Shooting up bikers is really easy for most armies (especially Eldar, Tau and Necrons). I fear I will get wiped easily with the bolter shots not doing a whole lot.

How does the Dakka banner fare against these armies?

Actually, it helps you out a lot. Low model count is an issue for ravenwing, and you can't really play the same tactics against any army! So against these armies it depends on what you're facing. I've only faced tau and eldar.

Tau wise I face both farsight and regular forces quite a lot, the banner is good for both, but this is why I take shrouds. Either army normally has riptides. Tau players love riptides. To get the best from the banners you need close formations, this makes riptides ejaculate pie plates in your direction! So, jink with the shrouds stealth actually offers you pretty good protection from blast templates! Otherwise they need to get close to you to hurt you (except fire warriors)

Now let's take 6 bikes. Without the banner they have 6 shots at maximum range. Just 6. With the banner, that goes up to 24! And as good as tau and eldars shooting is, their toughness and armour is not great, and will struggle under mass bolter fire.

As for eldar, they have pathetic range! So 4 shots at 24" will shred them! Just keep them far away.

And don't forget! Those 24 shots ARE ALSO TWIN LINKED! It makes the bikes almost equal on points as a tac squad, but a HELL of a lot more powerful, and flexable!

This is why the dakka banner is awesome.

The range on Eldar troops are indeed bad but the range on their tanks and hard hitters (wraithknights, Wave Serpents, Fire Prisms ect.) are better than '24 making it easy to stay out of range.

I also play eldar and my Dark Reapers really like some dead bikers. 5 Dark Reaper with Prescience/Guide will put out 10 s5 ap3 ignore jink shots at 48 inch range. But I get your point. This is an army in which variance plays a big role and if luck is on your side you will often have a good time.

I'm looking forward to fielding my Ravenwing and seeing how they before nonetheless