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Greetings!

I am planning on getting a Shinigami Striker and some Bushi Strikers for a homebrew samurai space marine chapter. Strictly meant for casual games.

Been trying to think of some unique rules for them, but I either end up with too OP abilities or things that require too much book keeping. So I thought I would see if dakka could give me some inspiration.

Some of the ideas I had, and scrapped.
1. Shinigami has a a cursed sword that absorbs the souls of people it cuts down... (too cliche so abandoned it)
2. Different combat stances: offensive (less attacks but higher strength), defensive, (significantly higher WS, but lowered strength)... (I think it's a nice idea, but might never end up actually using it)
3. Life leech / decay bubble around the shinigami... (possibly too much book keeping)
4. Cursed sword (again I know!) that takes a wound from the Shinigmi with no saves, and gains a much stronger profile (think of it like the Tau Riptide Overcharge)

As for their weapons; power katana is like a power sword with rending.

Any new ideas or ways to make these very early ideas work?

Cheers,
Taemu

--------------------------

After gathering people's ideas and some discussion. We now have a Captain Equivalent character for my samurai homebrew chapter, as well as its chapter tactics. Placing here so it is easier for people to find.

Shinigami Daimyo(155 points)

|| WS 6 || BS 5 || S 4 || T 4 || W 3 || I 5 || A 3 || Ld 10 || Sv 4+ || Type Infantry(Unique Character)

War Gear:
-Muramasa
-Radium wakizashi
-Bolt Pistol
-Artificer Armour

Special Rules:
-Indepdent Character
-And They Shall Know No Fear
-Chapter Tactics: Tetsuda

Weapons
Muramasa || S:User || AP: 2 || Type: Melee, Two Handed, Soul Eater, Cursed Blade

Soul Eater: If an enemy model is reduced to zero wounds whilst in a challenge with the Shinigami, it gets the Feel no Pain (6+) special rule. If it already has the Feel no Pain special rule, its effect gets increased by 1; to a maximum of a 4+.
Cursed Blade: Muramasa feeds off the blood of its wielder in exchange for greater strength. For every missing wound, the strength of Muramasa increases by 1.

Radium Wakizashi
At the start of fight sub-phase, any model equipped with a radium wakizashi can choose to unsheath it which will reduce the toughness by 1 of any models in close combat. This will also reduce the toughness of the wielder by 1. This effect is not accumulative with other models armed with a radium wakizashi, and it cannot reduce the toughness of a model below 1.

Chapter Tactics: Tetsuda
Mastery of the Sword. All models with the Chapter Tactics rule have a 6++ invulnerable save in close combat.

Riposte. When a model makes an armour or invulnerable save roll in close combat, on a roll of a 6 it immediately makes a single attack against the enemy. It uses the unmodified profile of its weapon (no bonuses from Furious change for example). Weapons with the unwieldy rule do not benefit from this rule.

BANZAI! Once a game a BANZAI! can be called at the start of the player's turn. All units with the Chapter Tactics rule gain Furious Charge and Zeolet for that turn.

Any model armed with a power sword can choose to swap it for a power katana for 2 points.
Power Katana || S:User || AP: 3 || Type: Melee, Two Handed, Rending

1. If the character is missing a wound, they gain one back. That would be relatively simple and not require much bookkeeping.
2. That's what the Champion of the Grey Knights does in challenges.
3. The bubble thing makes me think of either Nurgle based powers or something off Biomancy.
4. There's a lot of weapons that deal with gaining benefits from killing enemies, and we also have the Gorgon's Chain. So you would gain more benefits from more wounds lost (ergo a Chapter Master can really only make much use of it).

Overall though I don't see much that would make a Power Katana any better or worse than a regular Power Sword.

What if they had a chapter tactic of sorts where their characters who make a save roll of a 6 from an attack in close combat immediately hit with their weapons Strength and AP but it doesn't work with unwieldy weapons (axe, fist, thunder hammer, etc). Could also have their power swords give +1 to initiative for melee attacks.

Maybe something where their characters must make and accept challenges if able.

A bonus to the characters unit if they win. Maybe a fnp 6+.

Thanks for the input!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. If the character is missing a wound, they gain one back. That would be relatively simple and not require much bookkeeping.
2. That's what the Champion of the Grey Knights does in challenges.
3. The bubble thing makes me think of either Nurgle based powers or something off Biomancy.
4. There's a lot of weapons that deal with gaining benefits from killing enemies, and we also have the Gorgon's Chain. So you would gain more benefits from more wounds lost (ergo a Chapter Master can really only make much use of it).

Overall though I don't see much that would make a Power Katana any better or worse than a regular Power Sword.

1. That's a bit like an uber IWND, I might just use the regular ruling
2. Cool, didn't know that. Rarely play against grey knights.
3. Might ditch that idea, don't want to go into any psychic stuff
4. Had quick look at the Gorgon's chain rules, and I quite like the idea. I will think of something that is more aggressive though, and gets stronger the more wounded he is.

Well, katanas are famed for their sharpness compared to normal swords so wanted to represent that in the 40k universe. Making it AP2 would be too good, so I thought rending would be appropriate.

 Vankraken wrote:
What if they had a chapter tactic of sorts where their characters who make a save roll of a 6 from an attack in close combat immediately hit with their weapons Strength and AP but it doesn't work with unwieldy weapons (axe, fist, thunder hammer, etc). Could also have their power swords give +1 to initiative for melee attacks.

That's like a riposte! I like that very much. I might give them a 6++ invul that only works in close combat to represent them parrying a weapon.

Lance845 wrote:Maybe something where their characters must make and accept challenges if able.

A bonus to the characters unit if they win. Maybe a fnp 6+.

Maybe to expand on that, every time the characters win a challenge they get +1 to their FNP roll; to a maximum of a 3+. Arguably could be too strong, but the opponent can simply decline the challenge and deny those benefits.

Potentially building fnp can get ridiculous. On the other hand challenges are not the most common either. 4+ max. no reason to have what amounts to a rereollable 3+ armor save on characters.

Opinions and feedback please!

Shinigami Daimyo (155 points)

|| WS 6 || BS 5 || S 4 || T 4 || W 3 || I 5 || A 3 || Ld 10 || Sv 4+ || Type Infantry(Unique Character)

War Gear:
-Muramasa
-Radium wakizashi
-Bolt Pistol
-Artificer Armour

Special Rules:
-Indepdent Character
-And They Shall Know No Fear
-Chapter Tactics: (name to be confirmed)

Weapons
Muramasa || S:User || AP: 2 || Type: Melee, Two Handed, Soul Eater, Cursed Blade

Soul Eater: If an enemy model is reduced to zero wounds whilst in a challenge with the Shinigami, it gets the Feel no Pain (6+) special rule. If it already has the Feel no Pain special rule, its effect gets increased by 1; to a maximum of a 4+.

Cursed Blade: Muramasa feeds off the blood of its wielder in exchange for greater strength. For every missing wound, the strength of Muramasa increases by 1.

Radium Wakizashi
At the start of fight sub-phase, any model equipped with a radium wakizashi can choose to unsheath it which will reduce the toughness by 1 of any models in close combat. This will also reduce the toughness of the wielder by 1. This effect is not accumulative with other models armed with a radium wakizashi, and it cannot reduce the toughness of a model below 1.

Chapter Tactics: Testsuda
Mastery of the Sword. All models with the Chapter Tactics rule have a 6++ invulnerable save in close combat.

Riposte. When a model makes an armour or invulnerable save roll in close combat, on a roll of a 6 it immediately makes a single attack against the enemy. It uses the unmodified profile of its weapon (no bonuses from Furious change for example). Weapons with the unwieldy rule do not benefit from this rule.

BANZAI! Once a game a BANZAI! can be called at the start of the player's turn. All units with the Chapter Tactics rule gain Furious Charge and Zeolet for that turn.

Any model armed with a power sword can choose to swap it for a power katana for 2 points.
Power Katana || S:User || AP: 3 || Type: Melee, Two Handed, Rending

EDIT: Updated unit type to Unique Character
EDIT2: Added new wargear and point adjustment (+5)
EDIT3: Added restriction regarding the Chapter Tactics Riposte
EDIT4: Added Power Katana weapon swap to Chapter Tactics
EDIT5: Name change

At-initiative AP2 is not a good thing. Especially on a cheap 150 point model. There's chapter masters who don't get that.

 curran12 wrote:
At-initiative AP2 is not a good thing. Especially on a cheap 150 point model. There's chapter masters who don't get that.

At initiative AP2 can be problematic but I do want to point out something like Castellan Crowe who is 175 points with AP2 and rerolling saves in CC, psyker, 2+ armor, crazy high WS, and 4+ invuln. The thing about Crowe is that its really hard to get him into CC reliably as he is foot slogging and he is basically never used despite being a monster in CC.

If this special character can get on a bike or jump pack then no way but if hes stuck being on foot or in a space marine transport then its not all that problematic.

 curran12 wrote:
At-initiative AP2 is not a good thing. Especially on a cheap 150 point model. There's chapter masters who don't get that.

At first I was a bit worried about making AP2, but then then a Black Templar Emperor's Champion has something similar/better for 140 points.

However if several people thing its too much, I will drop it own to AP3 with rending instead.

 Vankraken wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
At-initiative AP2 is not a good thing. Especially on a cheap 150 point model. There's chapter masters who don't get that.

At initiative AP2 can be problematic but I do want to point out something like Castellan Crowe who is 175 points with AP2 and rerolling saves in CC, psyker, 2+ armor, crazy high WS, and 4+ invuln. The thing about Crowe is that its really hard to get him into CC reliably as he is foot slogging and he is basically never used despite being a monster in CC.

If this special character can get on a bike or jump pack then no way but if hes stuck being on foot or in a space marine transport then its not all that problematic.

There is also -one- Crowe. With this unit, and its points value, there can be many of them running around quite cheaply in terms of point cost.

And, if I can put on a historical side note hat...katanas were -terrible- at cutting through armor. If that is what this is supposed to be, AP2 makes even less sense.

 curran12 wrote:
-snip-

There is also -one- Crowe. With this unit, and its points value, there can be many of them running around quite cheaply in terms of point cost.

And, if I can put on a historical side note hat...katanas were -terrible- at cutting through armor. If that is what this is supposed to be, AP2 makes even less sense.

My apologies, it should say Unique Character under the unit type. I do agree if there are lots of them running around there would be problems. It was intended to be my captain equivalent.

I am no expert in Katanas and just went with my knowledge of movies and popular media. So apologies if I am historically incorrect. However with the powers of homebrew, I have made this a cursed/demonic blade which makes it uber-sharp.

I think at initiative AP2 is fine considering he'll most likely be strength 4 when he first starts chopping things up. Strength 6 AP2 is pretty good, but you have to get at least a little lucky to end up at 1W remaining instead of simply being dead, so it's probably fine. For comparison, a dark eldar succubus can have at-intiative AP2 with a strength between 4 and 6 (depending on drugs and turn number) with an initiative of 8. No one seems to complain about her.

The restrictions on his FNP make it fluffy and reasonable.

Overall, I'd say your Shinigami Striker is interesting in terms of both mechanics and fluff, and I think he's quite reasonable provided he isn't allowed to hop on a bike or otherwise take options that send him over the top. A power armor guy with a cool sword is fluffy and fun to play both with and again. Naming the sword "Muramasa" feels a bit cheesy to me, but don't let my sense of aesthetic trample your own.

The 6+ invulnerable had me going "meh" until I saw the "riposte" part where you make an extra attack after passing the save. That's actually really cool and unique. I like it. Would this work with, for instance, a power fist however? Considering it's only a 6+ invul, it probably wouldn't be broken even with a powerfist, but it's something to consider.

To clarify, would the mastery of the sword "riposte" mechanic trigger simply by rolling a 6 on your invul/armor save, or do you have to make that save and then roll a different d6 roll that triggers the bonus attack only on a 6? If it's the latter, I'd say to just have the mechanic trigger on all armor/invul saves of 6. Otherwise, it will happen too infrequently to be useful and just result in more dice rolling.

Banzai seems fine. It's kind of a better version of Blood Angels' "chapter tactics," but they're generally considered to be a meh faction anyway..


Regarding combat stances, I like the idea of doing one of the following:
A.) Characters may take Grey Knight style stances as wargear. Each stance costs X points and grants a different effect, but you can only use one at a time (declare which one you're using at the start of the fight sub phase). Example effects:
-Reduce your attacks to 1, but gain a 4+ invul, and the "riposte" mechanic triggers on any save of 4+.
-Reduce your attacks to 1, but gain Smash.
-Gain Rampage, but lower your WS by 1 (lots of attacks with less technique behind them).

or...

B.) Characters can spend X points to gain specialized training with common astartes weaponry. They gain the following benefit when using the associated weapon:

-Chainsword: Rending
-Power Maul: Make a single strength 10 attack at initiative 1 with concussive. Big whalloping hit.
-Power Axe: Unsaved wounds inflict 2 wounds instead of 1. Cut deep.
-Power Sword: Lower your attacks by 1 to to force a single enemy model to make a WS test at the start of the fight sub-phase. If they fail, one of their weapons of your choice becomes a ccw for the remainder of the assault phase. If you're in a challenge, this ability may only target the challenger. Disarm, basically.
-Power Lance: Gain +1 Initative. Gain AP2 instead of AP3 on the turn you charge. You have reach, and you know how to use a glaive/spear.
Power Fist: For each unsaved wound an enemy suffers from your power fist, that model reduces their WS and Attacks characteristics by 1 for the remainder of the game. Even if the power fist doesn't kill you, it's going to leave you hurting.


Also, if you want to do an aura of entropy type effect, you could always give them something akin to rad grenades. Maybe give them wakizashis that are ceremonially forged in radiation forges? They're kept in radiation-dampening sheaths and only drawn when absolutely necessary. Have these "rad-blades" count as close combat weapons that cause everyone involved in a melee (possibly including the marines themselves) suffer -1 toughness. So they'd be good for insta-killing things that are normally toughness 3 (because you'd now have strength 4 against their toughness 2) or for hurting really big things that you couldn't normally hurt with your better weapons. For instance, a wraith knight is already pounding you into mush regardless of whether you're toughness 4 or 3, so you'd draw the rad-blades to lower its toughness to 7. Now you can hurt it with your AP 2 weapons (even if you're fishing for 6s) or wound it on 5s with your krak grenade(s). Probably give players the option to draw or sheath their rad-blades at the start of the fight sub-phase so that you don't have to be toughness 3 when you don't want to be.

Thanks for taking the time to write that! My goodness.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Naming the sword "Muramasa" feels a bit cheesy to me, but don't let my sense of aesthetic trample your own.

You are very right, I literally googled cursed sword names and picked the first one. I just needed a Japanese sounding name for a sword, will try to think of something on my own eventually...

The 6+ invulnerable had me going "meh" until I saw the "riposte" part where you make an extra attack after passing the save. That's actually really cool and unique. I like it. Would this work with, for instance, a power fist however? Considering it's only a 6+ invul, it probably wouldn't be broken even with a powerfist, but it's something to consider.

To clarify, would the mastery of the sword "riposte" mechanic trigger simply by rolling a 6 on your invul/armor save, or do you have to make that save and then roll a different d6 roll that triggers the bonus attack only on a 6? If it's the latter, I'd say to just have the mechanic trigger on all armor/invul saves of 6. Otherwise, it will happen too infrequently to be useful and just result in more dice rolling.

I must give where credit is due, it was originally Vankraken's idea. I will add a list of weapons that are allowed to benefit from the Master of the Sword rule, will limit it to bladed weapons only for fluff reasons. I don't see a power first making a riposte, lol. The riposte mechanic is meant to trigger on the actual save roll.

Regarding combat stances, I like the idea of doing one of the following:
A.) Characters may take Grey Knight style stances as wargear. Each stance costs X points and grants a different effect, but you can only use one at a time (declare which one you're using at the start of the fight sub phase). Example effects:
-Reduce your attacks to 1, but gain a 4+ invul, and the "riposte" mechanic triggers on any save of 4+.
-Reduce your attacks to 1, but gain Smash.
-Gain Rampage, but lower your WS by 1 (lots of attacks with less technique behind them).

I would go for suggestion A, as I would avoid changing standard Space Marine equipment since I would either forget it or confuse my opponent. A little thing I read from the wonders of 1d4chan is the Rising Sons, which is most certainly fanmade, is the Three Little Birds which represents their tactics.

Maybe give them wakizashis that are ceremonially forged in radiation forges? They're kept in radiation-dampening sheaths and only drawn when absolutely necessary. Have these "rad-blades" count as close combat weapons that cause everyone involved in a melee (possibly including the marines themselves) suffer -1 toughness.

Very cool, high risk high reward. I am definitely going to add this.

Cool! For the record, I could totally see a power fist making a "riposte" by knocking an attack aside with the big honkin' gauntlet or by simply grabbing the enemy's wrist or whatever. It's just that a power fist attack is much more potent than a power sword attack, so I thought I'd point it out.

Ws 6 bs5 3 wounds and a 2+?

Artificer armor is a 2 +

And at 150 points? If you came to the table with this I would tell you to take a very long hike off a very short pier

The DA grand master who has a ws6 Bs5 a 2+ and an ap 3 weapon costs 215 points

A space marine interrogater Chaplin with terminator armor giving him a 2+ 4++ with ws5 bs5 3w is 140 points barebones.

Your HQ is way over tuned, WS and BS of 5 and up are rare, 6 and 5 on a model costing just 10 points more for a chap in term armor with a crappier weapon is not balanced

AND he can get a FNP up to a 4+ FNP?!

At 150 points


WS 5 bs 5, no FNP of any kind, and 3 wounds with an AP 2 melee weapon stock

6++ across the board is op as well, you can't be insta killed by anything at that point, make it a 6+FNP and increase point cost by 20 point on top of the 150 for this.

Counter attack is fine but only on armor saves of 6, not a FNP or invulnerable save, they also would strike at I one, at the models unmodified strength no AP of any kind

 Vankraken wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
At-initiative AP2 is not a good thing. Especially on a cheap 150 point model. There's chapter masters who don't get that.

At initiative AP2 can be problematic but I do want to point out something like Castellan Crowe who is 175 points with AP2 and rerolling saves in CC, psyker, 2+ armor, crazy high WS, and 4+ invuln. The thing about Crowe is that its really hard to get him into CC reliably as he is foot slogging and he is basically never used despite being a monster in CC.

If this special character can get on a bike or jump pack then no way but if hes stuck being on foot or in a space marine transport then its not all that problematic.

That's only in a challenge and he has two wounds. He's throwing out Ap- attacks otherwise. He's one of the worst models in the game.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ws 6 bs5 3 wounds and a 2+?

Artificer armor is a 2 +

And at 150 points? If you came to the table with this I would tell you to take a very long hike off a very short pier

The DA grand master who has a ws6 Bs5 a 2+ and an ap 3 weapon costs 215 points

A space marine interrogater Chaplin with terminator armor giving him a 2+ 4++ with ws5 bs5 3w is 140 points barebones.

Your HQ is way over tuned, WS and BS of 5 and up are rare, 6 and 5 on a model costing just 10 points more for a chap in term armor with a crappier weapon is not balanced

AND he can get a FNP up to a 4+ FNP?!

At 150 points


WS 5 bs 5, no FNP of any kind, and 3 wounds with an AP 2 melee weapon stock

6++ across the board is op as well, you can't be insta killed by anything at that point, make it a 6+FNP and increase point cost by 20 point on top of the 150 for this.

Counter attack is fine but only on armor saves of 6, not a FNP or invulnerable save, they also would strike at I one, at the models unmodified strength no AP of any kind

I feel you may be overreacting slightly. Let's break this down.

The closest comparable unit to this guy would probably be a Captain in artificer armor. That gives us the same statline and armor save. At it's most powerful, cursed blade gives its wielder +2 Strength (so Strength 6) which is basically a relic blade (even down to the two-handedness). So let's look at the price tag of a captainr with artificer armor and a relic blade. That comes to 135 points. Now, let's look closer.

Muramasa only becomes strength 6 if you're down to your last wound. Which is a precarious balancing act. When the game starts, Muramasa is basically a a slightly better power sword. You probably don't want this guy going toe to toe with things in 2+ armor anyway, so that isn't a huge help, but sure. It's a slightly better power sword. If you take a single wound, you have a pretty solid weapon at strength 6 and ap 2, but that's nothing game breaking. If you are on death's door, so close to dying that a single ap 2 wound or a lucky lasgun can kill you, then yes, it becomes strength 6 ap 2. Which again, just makes it the equivalent of a relic blade. So really, let's think of this as a worse relic blade that only becomes as good as a relic blade if you manage to almost die but not quite.

So now let's examine Soul Eater. It's a useful rule, but not a massive boon. You only gain FNP if you kill a guy in a challenge, and even then, it's only a 6+ FNP on a Toughness 4 model. Hardly game breaking. More of a fluffy thing at that point. If you manage to kill off three guys in challenges with this particular character over the course of the game, then you have a single model with 4+ FNP. And at that point, this fine example of the emperor's fury probably deserves a little something for personally winning three challenges with a weapon that, most likely, was just a slightly better power sword when those fights started. So Soul Eater is a nice, fluffy thing to have, but just how many points do you think that's really worth? My dark eldar get 5+ FNP just for surviving to see turn 3, and I still wouldn't wouldn't price that part of Power From Pain at more than a few points. Surely a version of FNP that you have to actively murder guys in melee after crossing the board to get can't be too terribly expensive. Let's call it 10 points max? I feel 10 points for Soul Eater is being pretty generous. Keep in mind an Iron Hands chapter master (not using the Gorgon chains thing) can get 4+ FNP just by hanging out with an apothecary. This guy at least has to work for his.

So basically, you have an artificer armor captain with a worse relic blade and a very situational way to get slightly better FNP than he would already have thanks to an apothecary for 15 points more than a regular captain with relic blade and artificer armor. Are you saying that you'd price Soul Eater at more than 15 points difference?

I can't speak to your comparison to a grand master because I don't know that book well enough. Sounds like he's probably overpriced.

Your chaplain comparison is an odd one. Chaplains are half-decent melee combatants that you mostly take so that you can buff the guys around them in melee. And let's look closer at this chaplain who, again, is partly a force multiplier rather than a purely melee oriented beast. His statline is slightly worse, but not by much. He has lower WS, but the difference between WS 5 and WS 6 only matters if he's going up against a relatively small number of units. Against anything WS 4 or less (which is 90% of the stuff out there), he's basically just as good. Anything WS 5 or higher is very probably a unit that your chaplain shouldn't be trying to go after unless he brought a big squad of friends along to buff. He has fewer attacks, but this is offset somewhat by his melee buffs. He has a 4++ invul, which the shinigami actually doesn't seem to have as currently written (I assume he'd have an option to take one for more points). And the chaplain starts the game off at Strength 6 meaning against many targets (daemons, harlies, vehicles, anything with a 4+ or worse armor save) he's actually got the better weapon starting out. So is he slightly worse than this guy at melee? Probably. But by your calculations he costs 5 points more than a relic blade artificer armor captain. That's not bad considering the chaplain isn't the dedicated melee combatant. in the hq slot. The captain is, and I think this shinigami is very competitively priced for what he gets.

So unless you consider Soul Eater to be worth a ton of points, I hardly think it's worth telling someone to "take a long walk off a short pier." Arguably, the shinigami is paying more points for a slightly worse loadout than a captain with a relic blade and artificer armor.

As for your critique of the chapter tactics...

A 6+ invul save is overpowered because you can't be insta-killed by anything? Quick! Let's go inform the sisters of battle players that their soroitas are unkillable walking tanks second only to the fearsome durability of the harlequin's 5+ invul save! A 6+ invul (that only works in melee) is a cool, fluffy thing that lets these guys have a slim chance against uneven odds. It's not likely to tip the odds even close to your favor, and it won't matter against anything that doesn't ignore your armor anyway. It's a very niche, very situational bonus. Making it 6+ FNP might arguably make it more potent because you're now getting a second roll to stop a wound (albeit only on a 6+).

And you want to increase the points cost of a single captain by 20 points to account for this? You realize this is a chapter tactic, right? This is what they're getting instead of Iron Hands' 6+ or White Scar's Hit & Run or Ultramarines doctrines. It's far from too powerful.

Why make the riposte only work on an armor save? I agree it shouldn't work on a FNP, but what's so game breaking about an iron halo or 6+ invul triggering it? If anything that would make a bit less sense to me as I interpret the 6+ invul representing excellent swordsmanship being used to parry an otherwise lethal attack. So requiring the attack to bounce off your armor first seems odd. Resolving the "riposte" attacks at initiative one probably wouldn't be a problem and would even clean up some weird situations (riposting at initiative 8 using a power axe when you stop a succubus's attack with your invul?) However, it would also add a little bit of complexity to the rule. Rather than simply resolving the ripostes right away, you would have to keep track of which models had ripostes to resolve from which initiative step, keep track of those different dice pools, set them aside, and then also keep track of which dice from those pools have to be removed if a model was killed.

I think Wyldhunt has nicely covered everything. The main character I used as a basis for the cost is the Emporer's Champion.

@Backspacehacker I do appreciate feedback as I want to have a model that is fun to play with and against, but please do keep it civil.

I wrote this at 10 PM so i was a bit groggy eyed.

I see now the FNP occurs only during the challenge so, for that, i could see it as passible, but how ever, i would still argue to cap it at 5+, not a 4+.

Even if toughness 4, MEQ dont have a lot of weapons that can insta death outside of power fists and thunder hammers which are striking at I one. So having a 4+ FNP ontop of a 2+ armor save is going to be very strong in a challenge.

I still say the chapter tactic is OP because they can counter at their full Weapon strength and AP. Meaning if i rush in with terminators i not only have to survive the first wave of melee, but then i need to survive any saves of 6+ and with weapons that are AP2 thats not a fun thing to save seeing as how they are still T4. Making it so it only happens of a 6+ armor, not on FNP or Invul saves, and treat it like a Hammer of Wrath it. Auto hits, at the wielders unmodified strength. AP - then give it rending that way your not totally out on a loop.

The reason i say make it increase his point cost is to treat that chapter tactic like vulkan with the salamanders. Where ALL meltas and flamers are effected, do the same for this situation.

This guy is primarlly going to be used for duels, thats what he is built for. if you wanna give him a 6WS drop his BS to 4 or increase point cost.

Again, wrote this at 10, so if the invul only works in melee, then ok, i would be fine with it, but lets not pull up the sisters as an argument if we can, they have not had anything relevant for years now.

Doing some quick mathhammer, in a vacuum and lots of assumptions to make it easier. Only taking close combat into account.

Scenario 1: Shinigami VS 2 Terminators with Power Fists

Shinigami will strike first at I5 with 3 attacks. 2 attacks will hit, 1 will wound. Against the terminators 5++ save, the terminators will suffer 0.6667 wounds. So lets round up to 1, so 1 terminator dies.
Remaining terminator will strike at I1 with 2 attacks. 1 Attack will hit, 0.8333 will wound. Against the Shinigami's 6++ save, it will suffer 0.6944 wounds. But since it is S8, instant death applies so no FNP and the Shinigami will be removed from play. The riposte will cause 0.0309 wounds.

Therefore the Shinigami would have caused 0.6975 wounds, and the terminators would have caused 0.6944 wounds but at instant death.

Terminators win.

Scenario 2: Shinigami (at 1W, so +2S on the Muramasa) vs 2 Terminators with Power Fists

Shinigami will strike first at I5 with 3 attacks. 2 attacks will hit, 1.6667 will wound. Against the terminators 5++ save, the terminators will suffer 1.111 wounds. So potentially killing 2, but not likely. Assuming only 1 dies.
Remaining terminator will strike at I1 with 2 attacks. 1 Attack will hit, 0.8333 will wound. Against the Shinigami's 6++ save, it will suffer 0.6944 wounds.The riposte will cause 0.0514 wounds.

Therefore the Shinigami would have caused 1.163 wounds, and the terminators would have caused 0.6944 wounds but at instant death.

Harder to determine who is the winner as instant death is a bit tricky, but I would still say the favour is with the terminators.

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However personally I don't think terminators are very good in the first place. So let's go to scenario 3.


Scenario 3: Shinigami(at 1W, and 4++FNP) VS Emperor's Champion
Assuming it is NOT a challenge, so the Emperor's champion does not gain some of his benefits.

Both models will strike at the same time. Starting with the Shinigami.
Shinigami will strike with 3 attacks. 1.5 attacks will hit, 1.25 will wound. Against the Champion's 4++ save, the Champion will suffer 0.625 wounds.
The Champion will strike with 2 attacks. 1 attack will hit, 0.833 will wound. Against the Shinigami's 6++ save and 4+ FNP, the Shinigami will suffer 0.3472 wounds. The riposte will cause 0.0290 wounds.

So in round 1, the Shinigami would have caused 0.6539 wounds. And the Champion causing 0.3472 wounds.

Continuing this battle, it will take 3.048 turns to kill the Champion and will take 2.88 turns to kill the Shinigami.

So the Champion wins, but it is very close. However this does not take into account the Champion's mastercrafted blade nor his other special rules.

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Haven't checked the calculations, so I might have made a mistake and this is just a very simple way of doing it. I do not think it's as OP as you are making it out to be.

 taemu_touhi wrote:
Thanks for the input!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. If the character is missing a wound, they gain one back. That would be relatively simple and not require much bookkeeping.
2. That's what the Champion of the Grey Knights does in challenges.
3. The bubble thing makes me think of either Nurgle based powers or something off Biomancy.
4. There's a lot of weapons that deal with gaining benefits from killing enemies, and we also have the Gorgon's Chain. So you would gain more benefits from more wounds lost (ergo a Chapter Master can really only make much use of it).

Overall though I don't see much that would make a Power Katana any better or worse than a regular Power Sword.

Well, katanas are famed for their sharpness compared to normal swords so wanted to represent that in the 40k universe. Making it AP2 would be too good, so I thought rending would be appropriate.

Except katanas and practically any eastern curved sword is terrible against plate/anything that isnt leather armour. So if anything, it'd be ap 4-6.

Nevermind, someone already brought that up. But for the whole homebrew thing in general I'd tone down the stereotypical samurai stuff a bit. Give it some flavour that isn't "I watched the last samurai yesterday"

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I wrote this at 10 PM so i was a bit groggy eyed.

I see now the FNP occurs only during the challenge so, for that, i could see it as passible, but how ever, i would still argue to cap it at 5+, not a 4+.

Even if toughness 4, MEQ dont have a lot of weapons that can insta death outside of power fists and thunder hammers which are striking at I one. So having a 4+ FNP ontop of a 2+ armor save is going to be very strong in a challenge.

I still say the chapter tactic is OP because they can counter at their full Weapon strength and AP. Meaning if i rush in with terminators i not only have to survive the first wave of melee, but then i need to survive any saves of 6+ and with weapons that are AP2 thats not a fun thing to save seeing as how they are still T4. Making it so it only happens of a 6+ armor, not on FNP or Invul saves, and treat it like a Hammer of Wrath it. Auto hits, at the wielders unmodified strength. AP - then give it rending that way your not totally out on a loop.

The reason i say make it increase his point cost is to treat that chapter tactic like vulkan with the salamanders. Where ALL meltas and flamers are effected, do the same for this situation.

This guy is primarlly going to be used for duels, thats what he is built for. if you wanna give him a 6WS drop his BS to 4 or increase point cost.

Again, wrote this at 10, so if the invul only works in melee, then ok, i would be fine with it, but lets not pull up the sisters as an argument if we can, they have not had anything relevant for years now.

I'm afraid I still disagree with you on pretty much all of those points. I still think you're overselling the durability of a single 2+/4+FNP model. Even if he does prove all but immune to death in challenges (which he really shouldn't), you still have plenty of ways to deal with him. Simply shooting him to death, for instance. He's unable to take a bike or jump pack, so he's either hopping out of a drop pod where your whole army can unload on him or else he's rhino'ing/footslogging across the table. Whatever the case, chances are very good that his entourage will be pretty easy to remove, and he should drop shortly thereafter. Or if you absolutely can't shoot him to death for some reason, just toss an MC at him. Any S8 or higher MC will insta-gib him, but even a humble TMC has okay odds of dropping him. Especially if he isn't strength 6 at the time. Or just send in some little guys and deny him the challenge. He is not that durable. Seriously. You don't see unmounted artificer captains running around winning tournaments. This guy being slightly better in a challenge isn't going to change that.


Regarding the chapter tactic, I still feel like you're really over-selling it. Things like power fists or thunder hammers getting the "riposte" (calling it a counter attack is confusing because that's a USR) might be problematic, but that's easily amended by excluding those weapons specifically or even by saying the chapter tactic doesn't work for models in terminator armor as they're too bulky to really bring their full bladesmanship to bare.

Your terminator example doesn't really hold up. For starters, terminators are not great and what's worse, they're very expensive. In your scenario, you seem to be picturing entire squads with AP2 weapons. Outside of terminators, assault centurions, and very inefficiently- built vanguard squads, I struggle to think of any unit that's likely to have more than a single AP2 weapon. So most of the time, the only way you're going to take an AP2 riposte is if that one (usually toughness 4) guy happens to pass his first 6+ invul save. If he doesn't succeed on that 1/6 chance on the first try, then he's dead, and he doesn't get to riposte. So one out of every 6 units that your terminators charge will get a single attack back at you that still might fail to hit, and then it might fail to wound, and then it might fail to get past your invul save.

So the math on that is a (1/6th chance of making the invul on the first go) * (1/2 chance to hit assuming WS 4) * (5/6 chance to wound assuming we're talking about a power fist that makes him roughly as expensive as your terminator) * (2/3 chance that you won't make a 5+ invul save). Which, by my math, comes out to about... 0.046 chance of killing one of your terminators. So for every 100 times your terminators charge a unit with a power fist, you'll lose a terminator about 4 or 5 times. And that's assuming the OP doesn't decide to exclude power fists from the list of weapons that work. With a power axe, for instance, the odds drop significantly. Are you seriously worried about your terminators having a less than 5% chance of losing a single guy against most squads?

If we're talking about your terminators charging other squads of terminators or squads full of power axes or assault centurions, well... you've charged a unit full of terminator-killing weapons. Chapter tactic or no, that's going to result in a lot of dead terminators. Similarly, charging dark eldar wyches into a squad of burna boyz will generally result in some overwatch casualties on the wyches' side.

All that aside, I still don't like your suggestion that the chapter tactic become an initiative 1 rending attack that only works on armor saves for the following reasons.
* Making it rending actually makes it more potent in many situations. Consider a squad of tac marines with this tactic versus some chaos marines or sisters or striking scorpions or what have you. Guys that normally only have Ap- will now occassionally ignore armor entirely.

* Making it work at a different initiative means you have to do some weird record keeping. Against a unit of orks, for instance, you would have to keep track of a warboss's attacks at initiative 4, a pain boy's attacks at initiative 3, and a bunch of boyz attacks at initiative 2. You would need to keep track of who rolled those 6s and whether or not the model that generated them had died at some point before initiative one, removing dice as necessary. Which is a mess. A very cluttered mess. It's much simpler to simply take your saves and go, "Oh hey, two of those marines died, but they rolled three 6s on their armor saves before they dropped, so here are my ripostes."

*EDIT: Also, you seem very worried about the model benefitting from its weapon's profile. As pointed out above, most squads will only have a single power weapon (maybe two with an attached character). The exceptions are things like vanguard vets and terminators who, frankly, could probably do with a bit of a boost. Considering this chapter tactic is largely on par with existing chapter tactics, I think this is a good way to make them more relevant. This tactic lets me feel better about taking vanguard vets as I can at least hope to roll a 6+ invul against whatever unit decides to charge them and then get in one or two extra sucker punches before my very expensive model drops.

How exactly would you suggest increasing the points cost for models with a chapter tactic that effects essentially every non-vehicle unit (and dreadnaughts) in the codex? Are you suggesting that tactical squads pay extra points per model for a small chance to punch enemies back? Keep in mind that a tac sargeant with this rule could have in stead been a salamander and gotten mastercrafted or a space wolf and gotten counter attack or a white scar and gotten hit & run. Are you really saying that the riposte is so significantly more powerful that it warrants a price increase? Or are you only arguing for a price increase for the special character that, as previously pointed out, is roughly on par with a normal captain of similar points cost?

Dropping his BS to 4 is unnecessary. I mean, his only ranged weapons are a bolt pistol and a krak grenade (assuming he's meant to have krak grenades and they simply aren't in his profile), but it also feels unnecessary. A captain has BS5 and, as pointed out earlier, is quite comparable in both points cost and ability. The Emperor's champion has BS4. Either way, it won't make much difference.

As for bringing sisters into it... Sisters have a 6+ invul save that works against both melee and shooting. As you've pointed out, they aren't the most relevant army. People don't build tournament lists specifically to counter them. No one is particularly frightened of a sisters army. Yet they have a 6+ invul save which you seem to be highly opposed to. Considering how little a difference it seems to make for sisters, I'm just curious as to why you're so adamantly opposed to it on marines. Not to derail the thread.

#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 taemu_touhi wrote:
Thanks for the input!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. If the character is missing a wound, they gain one back. That would be relatively simple and not require much bookkeeping.
2. That's what the Champion of the Grey Knights does in challenges.
3. The bubble thing makes me think of either Nurgle based powers or something off Biomancy.
4. There's a lot of weapons that deal with gaining benefits from killing enemies, and we also have the Gorgon's Chain. So you would gain more benefits from more wounds lost (ergo a Chapter Master can really only make much use of it).

Overall though I don't see much that would make a Power Katana any better or worse than a regular Power Sword.

Well, katanas are famed for their sharpness compared to normal swords so wanted to represent that in the 40k universe. Making it AP2 would be too good, so I thought rending would be appropriate.

Except katanas and practically any eastern curved sword is terrible against plate/anything that isnt leather armour. So if anything, it'd be ap 4-6.

Nevermind, someone already brought that up. But for the whole homebrew thing in general I'd tone down the stereotypical samurai stuff a bit. Give it some flavour that isn't "I watched the last samurai yesterday"

This. Katanas are not too effective at cutting through actual armour plate, and must be folded so many times because Japanese steel is so poor compared to European steel.

However, it's not necessarily the blade that is cutting. If it's a power weapon, you could attribute the increased AP to a more powerful energy field, akin to the Black Templar's Black Sword. Just not because it's a katana.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I wrote this at 10 PM so i was a bit groggy eyed.

I see now the FNP occurs only during the challenge so, for that, i could see it as passible, but how ever, i would still argue to cap it at 5+, not a 4+.

Even if toughness 4, MEQ dont have a lot of weapons that can insta death outside of power fists and thunder hammers which are striking at I one. So having a 4+ FNP ontop of a 2+ armor save is going to be very strong in a challenge.

I still say the chapter tactic is OP because they can counter at their full Weapon strength and AP. Meaning if i rush in with terminators i not only have to survive the first wave of melee, but then i need to survive any saves of 6+ and with weapons that are AP2 thats not a fun thing to save seeing as how they are still T4. Making it so it only happens of a 6+ armor, not on FNP or Invul saves, and treat it like a Hammer of Wrath it. Auto hits, at the wielders unmodified strength. AP - then give it rending that way your not totally out on a loop.

The reason i say make it increase his point cost is to treat that chapter tactic like vulkan with the salamanders. Where ALL meltas and flamers are effected, do the same for this situation.

This guy is primarlly going to be used for duels, thats what he is built for. if you wanna give him a 6WS drop his BS to 4 or increase point cost.

Again, wrote this at 10, so if the invul only works in melee, then ok, i would be fine with it, but lets not pull up the sisters as an argument if we can, they have not had anything relevant for years now.

I'm afraid I still disagree with you on pretty much all of those points. I still think you're overselling the durability of a single 2+/4+FNP model. Even if he does prove all but immune to death in challenges (which he really shouldn't), you still have plenty of ways to deal with him. Simply shooting him to death, for instance. He's unable to take a bike or jump pack, so he's either hopping out of a drop pod where your whole army can unload on him or else he's rhino'ing/footslogging across the table. Whatever the case, chances are very good that his entourage will be pretty easy to remove, and he should drop shortly thereafter. Or if you absolutely can't shoot him to death for some reason, just toss an MC at him. Any S8 or higher MC will insta-gib him, but even a humble TMC has okay odds of dropping him. Especially if he isn't strength 6 at the time. Or just send in some little guys and deny him the challenge. He is not that durable. Seriously. You don't see unmounted artificer captains running around winning tournaments. This guy being slightly better in a challenge isn't going to change that.

Agreed.
This guy gets no armour save against the most common weapons used by enemies in challenges (power fists, thunder hammers, power klaws, etc), and thus no invuln save. Most AP2 weapons are also of a high enough S to Instant Kill this guy, so FNP is useless.

He can be shot easily, lascannons and grav weapons will make mincemeat of him, and even a lucky S8 hit from a missile will take him down. He only becomes that fearsome in Challenges, which you can always decline if you have the bodies. He is hardly a threat. A base Captain with a thunder hammer, storm shield and AA is more of a threat than this guy, and considering a base SM Captain can get T5, extra mobility, 2+/3++ AND EW, I'd say this guy is hardly game breaking.

Regarding the chapter tactic, I still feel like you're really over-selling it. Things like power fists or thunder hammers getting the "riposte" (calling it a counter attack is confusing because that's a USR) might be problematic, but that's easily amended by excluding those weapons specifically or even by saying the chapter tactic doesn't work for models in terminator armor as they're too bulky to really bring their full bladesmanship to bare.

Perfect. Allow only chainswords, power swords and relic blades to riposte, and there's no problem. Mauls are too bulky, and axes are too slow, like hammers and fists.

Dropping his BS to 4 is unnecessary. I mean, his only ranged weapons are a bolt pistol and a krak grenade (assuming he's meant to have krak grenades and they simply aren't in his profile), but it also feels unnecessary. A captain has BS5 and, as pointed out earlier, is quite comparable in both points cost and ability. The Emperor's champion has BS4. Either way, it won't make much difference.

Exactly - you shouldn't drop his BS - ESPECIALLY not for the sake of reducing his cost. He only has a bolt pistol, so reducing his points won't matter as he wouldn't use it much. It's a cheap trick, as it doesn't make the model any worse in game, seeing as he's hardly likely to use it.

As for bringing sisters into it... Sisters have a 6+ invul save that works against both melee and shooting. As you've pointed out, they aren't the most relevant army. People don't build tournament lists specifically to counter them. No one is particularly frightened of a sisters army. Yet they have a 6+ invul save which you seem to be highly opposed to. Considering how little a difference it seems to make for sisters, I'm just curious as to why you're so adamantly opposed to it on marines. Not to derail the thread.

A 6+ is also attainable either for 5 points as a combat shield, or as part of the Iron Hands CT. It's hardly a thing I'd be worried about on a single HQ model.

Wyldhunt: completely agreed.

I have made the change to the chapter tactics, so now models that are armed with unwieldy weapons will not benefit from the riposte rule.

Since it is coming up much more often than I think is really necessary, I have done some reading on katanas and other swords. Several have stated that katanas can't cut through plate armour, which is true. However swords in general can't cut through plate armour either. Which is why maces came along to crush plate armour, much more effective.

Now if you want a somewhat more flavourful reason for standard issue power katanas that are S:user, AP3, Type, Melee, Two-handed, Rending. The power katana only has a single edge which allows its power to amplified to higher levels than those of standard power sword. However in order to use the blade effectively it requires a two handed grip.

I like those rules for a power katana. Being two-handed makes it slightly worse than a normal power sword, but being rending roughly balances it out by giving you a small chance of cutting through 2+ armor or wounding high toughness targets.

Regarding the chapter tactic, I think that that's a good, clean way to prevent unwieldy weapons from swinging at a higher initiative than intended. Do note that this still allows power mauls and power lances to riposte. Which is fine in my book, but I wasn't sure if that's what you intended.

I didn't want to add a list of weapons that don't benefit as I think that's an inelegant way of adding the restriction.

I think rather than boosting the Katana's cutting power (which seems a bit silly, as Katanas are not sharper than a typical sword, and power fields would make that mostly irrelevant) I would make it two handed with +1 initiative. That way it is a good dualing weapon. Call the bonus initiative rule: Iaijutsu. (or quick draw to anglicise it if desired.)

The bonus to that approach would also be to allow Power Katanas (S: User, AP: 3, Iaijutsu, Two-Handed) and Katanas (S:User, AP:-, Iaijutsu, Two-Handed), the latter of which seems like a fair trade for assault squads as a free upgrade from ccw.

I also would drop riposte, as I think it has too much potential for abuse and isn't needed in addition to the 6++ and the Banzai rule.

EDIT: TYPO, PURGE WITH FIRE!!!