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Hey guys,

I was writing a custom Space Marine Chapter for a Fanon Wiki and I wanted to include an event where the Chapter's Librarius perform something similar to what the Emperor did to Horus. So my question is simple: Can the combined might of a standard Codex-Compliant Chapter's Librarius (or any part thereof) obliterate somebody in both Body AND Soul?

Cheers

I'm pretty sure that's a empror, Magnus only power level trick.

Well, obviously Horus's Soul was immensely powerful as he had been ascended by the four Chaos Gods, so only the Emperor was able of such a feat. If you lower down the power level A LOT, you could imagine a Librarian performing similar action on, say, a "regular" human with no real psychic potential and a "weak" body. But it isn't really practical in battle to focus so much of your power and attention, nor does it have a real interest to completely obliterate of existence such a being.

What is it that a Force weapon does?

jhe90 wrote:I'm pretty sure that's a empror, Magnus only power level trick.

Sort of. As Engrenages said: When the Emperor did it, he did it against Horus while he was empowered by all four of the major Chaos Gods. I'm thinking against an entity substantially less powerful than Horus.

Engrenages wrote:Well, obviously Horus's Soul was immensely powerful as he had been ascended by the four Chaos Gods, so only the Emperor was able of such a feat. If you lower down the power level A LOT, you could imagine a Librarian performing similar action on, say, a "regular" human with no real psychic potential and a "weak" body. But it isn't really practical in battle to focus so much of your power and attention, nor does it have a real interest to completely obliterate of existence such a being.

Doing such a thing in battle is not something I think is practical, either. I was thinking that it would happen after a battle when the target has been captured and imprisoned, and when the entire Librarius has the time to concentrate, focusing their efforts solely on the task of destroying their body and soul. For the sake of completeness, I should say that the target would be a Space Marine Company Captain.

nareik wrote:What is it that a Force weapon does?

Not anything close to the destruction of a soul.

Gregor Eisenhorn destroys a Daemon Host body and soul, annihilating the daemon utterly instead of just banishing it. To do this he uses a fancy ass force staff to magnify his comparatively average psyker level to what he imagines would be Alpha level.

So in principle it would work, but suffice to say Gregor's force staff was quite exceptional. Forged by an Arch Magos with Inquisitorial purity script and a powerful psychic fulcrum made from a disturbingly powerful Chaos Artifact, it was no average force staff. But I'm sure an entire Librarius conclave magnifying their psychic abilities together could achieve the same feat.

If it's not in a combat situation your librarius could employ some arcane device or ritual. It's a big, dark galaxy and there's no knowing what a chapter has hidden away.

Technically....... souls that aren't psykers (so normies) are eaten by daemons in the warp. SOOooo to destroy an entity body and soul (as long as it's not a psyker) --- cast the fether into the warp; the body can't exist in that place unprotected and the soul won't last either.

So a ritual could be: teleport something into the warp OR kick someone out of the airlock whilst travelling through the warp.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Technically....... souls that aren't psykers (so normies) are eaten by daemons in the warp.

What seems to be the consensus based on what I've read on various wiki articles as well as forum topics on this particular point is that this is only part of the truth. It can be pretty simply summed up but something I found on the Warhammer 40K Wiki discussions:

It depends on the person. If he was ordinary Imperial citizen who had no faith in the Emperor, then his soul will be most likely devoured by the daemons. If he was faithful, then he will spend his eternity at the Emperor's side. If he was a follower of Chaos, then after death he will be tortured by the god he served in life. If he was a follower of Chaos (but not out of devotion but rather to gain something from that), the he will be turned into a Fury.

 Otto Weston wrote:
So a ritual could be: teleport something into the warp OR kick someone out of the airlock whilst travelling through the warp.

Kicking them out of an airlock into the Warp doesn't sound very ritualistic

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Technically....... souls that aren't psykers (so normies) are eaten by daemons in the warp.

What seems to be the consensus based on what I've read on various wiki articles as well as forum topics on this particular point is that this is only part of the truth. It can be pretty simply summed up but something I found on the Warhammer 40K Wiki discussions:

It depends on the person. If he was ordinary Imperial citizen who had no faith in the Emperor, then his soul will be most likely devoured by the daemons. If he was faithful, then he will spend his eternity at the Emperor's side. If he was a follower of Chaos, then after death he will be tortured by the god he served in life. If he was a follower of Chaos (but not out of devotion but rather to gain something from that), the he will be turned into a Fury.

 Otto Weston wrote:
So a ritual could be: teleport something into the warp OR kick someone out of the airlock whilst travelling through the warp.

Kicking them out of an airlock into the Warp doesn't sound very ritualistic

I don't know, you can make a ritual out of pretty much anything:

We, the Conclave of X, sentence you to the 'Excoquam'.
(Insert multiple Ecclesiarchal paragraphs + hymns)
*Subject is carried aloft by chanting serfs into the airlock, bound in blessed chains/ ropes.*
*Subject is mildly tortured (psychic powers or good old fashioned ritual knives)*
*Button push*

Tea and biscuits time

 Otto Weston wrote:

Spoiler:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Technically....... souls that aren't psykers (so normies) are eaten by daemons in the warp.

What seems to be the consensus based on what I've read on various wiki articles as well as forum topics on this particular point is that this is only part of the truth. It can be pretty simply summed up but something I found on the Warhammer 40K Wiki discussions:

It depends on the person. If he was ordinary Imperial citizen who had no faith in the Emperor, then his soul will be most likely devoured by the daemons. If he was faithful, then he will spend his eternity at the Emperor's side. If he was a follower of Chaos, then after death he will be tortured by the god he served in life. If he was a follower of Chaos (but not out of devotion but rather to gain something from that), the he will be turned into a Fury.

 Otto Weston wrote:
So a ritual could be: teleport something into the warp OR kick someone out of the airlock whilst travelling through the warp.

Kicking them out of an airlock into the Warp doesn't sound very ritualistic

I don't know, you can make a ritual out of pretty much anything:

We, the Conclave of X, sentence you to the 'Excoquam'.
(Insert multiple Ecclesiarchal paragraphs + hymns)
*Subject is carried aloft by chanting serfs into the airlock, bound in blessed chains/ ropes.*
*Subject is mildly tortured (psychic powers or good old fashioned ritual knives)*
*Button push*

Tea and biscuits time

"Prepare for the Pushing of the Bottom!" *Ominous Hymn in High Gothic is Sung*

On a slightly more serious note, I have no denial about the potential for that to work, but the only examples I know of where somebody has set out to purposefully destroy someone's soul in 40K involves the use of some form of Psychic Attack. So chucking someone out the airlock (even ritualistically) doesn't seem like a surefire way to go.

Out of an airlock.
Into the Warp.

The daemons of the Warp will do the rest of the job for you.

 jhe90 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's a empror, Magnus only power level trick.

Eisenhorn did this kind of thing to Prophaniti, a Daemon Prince.

It mainly depends on the power of the entity in question. A weaksauce Daemon could be ganked by a powerful Librarian, but a Daemon Primarch would probably require the entire Grey Knights chapter to kill permanently, if it would work at all.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

Eisenhorn did this kind of thing to Prophaniti, a Daemon Prince.

It mainly depends on the power of the entity in question. A weaksauce Daemon could be ganked by a powerful Librarian, but a Daemon Primarch would probably require the entire Grey Knights chapter to kill permanently, if it would work at all.

Wasn't it just what Eisenhorn reckoned? So not necessarily a correct assumption?

Considering there was fluff about how some view Tesseract Labyrinths as a way to lasting victory against Daemons I suspect that killing things permanently and completely is either extremely difficult or the power of the Daemon simply goes back to it's patron.

Well, the thing is with daemons is they are created from the thoughts, feelings and actions of mortals.

So if you destroy the 'daemon of that satisfying feeling you get when you get a perfect wetblend colour gradient', then perhaps for a while some painters will feel less satisfied / connected when they do a decent blend, but they will still get some feeling of pride and completion. Eventually these feelings will start to coalesce in the warp again (and those parts of these painters souls will be drawn into this coalescence) and a new daemon of perfect wetblend colour gradient will begin to form.


So in a way you can't truly destroy a daemon without somehow preventing it from reforming... That's how I like to see this aspect of chaos at least!

I would add that there is going to be a difference between permanently destroying a daemon and destroying a mortal soul.
As the OP says that the target is a SM Captain's soul, yeah, I could see an entire Chapter's librarians having the potency to destroy both the body and soul - especially if they used some kind of ritual/artefact as a sort of focus.
Daemons are different, they pretty much "respawn" in the warp, but destroying a "mortal" soul seems to be a plausible event, at least to me.

The only question I have is why? Who is this character that is so bad that they need to be demolished body and soul?

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

I was writing a custom Space Marine Chapter for a Fanon Wiki and I wanted to include an event where the Chapter's Librarius perform something similar to what the Emperor did to Horus. So my question is simple: Can the combined might of a standard Codex-Compliant Chapter's Librarius (or any part thereof) obliterate somebody in both Body AND Soul?

Cheers

It depends on the target. Human souls seem pretty much at the mercy of the warp. Daemon 'souls' are damn near indestructible. Typically the most common form of soul destroying involves one entity consuming another, although different authors seem to have different ideas about what that entails.

TheLumberJack wrote:The only question I have is why? Who is this character that is so bad that they need to be demolished body and soul?

Well the idea is that the heretic in question takes what is effectively the entire company he commands and rebels against the Chapter before turning to Chaos. The next part of the idea is that the Chapter takes extreme offense to it and has zero tolerance for such actions. Two and two lead me to the question in the OP.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

I was writing a custom Space Marine Chapter for a Fanon Wiki and I wanted to include an event where the Chapter's Librarius perform something similar to what the Emperor did to Horus. So my question is simple: Can the combined might of a standard Codex-Compliant Chapter's Librarius (or any part thereof) obliterate somebody in both Body AND Soul?

Cheers

It depends on the target. Human souls seem pretty much at the mercy of the warp. Daemon 'souls' are damn near indestructible. Typically the most common form of soul destroying involves one entity consuming another, although different authors seem to have different ideas about what that entails.

I'm sensing a "Hungry" theme with the responses here hahaha

 IllumiNini wrote:

TheLumberJack wrote:The only question I have is why? Who is this character that is so bad that they need to be demolished body and soul?

Well the idea is that the heretic in question takes what is effectively the entire company he commands and rebels against the Chapter before turning to Chaos. The next part of the idea is that the Chapter takes extreme offense to it and has zero tolerance for such actions. Two and two lead me to the question in the OP.

Well yeah they can take offense, but from a fluff standpoint the only time something like this is done is when there is fear of the person being brought back to life, like Horus. This guy doesn't seem that heinous or like he's important enough that he'd be brought back to life, so it seems like they would just straight up kill him

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

TheLumberJack wrote:The only question I have is why? Who is this character that is so bad that they need to be demolished body and soul?

Well the idea is that the heretic in question takes what is effectively the entire company he commands and rebels against the Chapter before turning to Chaos. The next part of the idea is that the Chapter takes extreme offense to it and has zero tolerance for such actions. Two and two lead me to the question in the OP.

Well yeah they can take offense, but from a fluff standpoint the only time something like this is done is when there is fear of the person being brought back to life, like Horus. This guy doesn't seem that heinous or like he's important enough that he'd be brought back to life, so it seems like they would just straight up kill him

True enough, but that's just down right less exciting haha

 IllumiNini wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

TheLumberJack wrote:The only question I have is why? Who is this character that is so bad that they need to be demolished body and soul?

Well the idea is that the heretic in question takes what is effectively the entire company he commands and rebels against the Chapter before turning to Chaos. The next part of the idea is that the Chapter takes extreme offense to it and has zero tolerance for such actions. Two and two lead me to the question in the OP.

Well yeah they can take offense, but from a fluff standpoint the only time something like this is done is when there is fear of the person being brought back to life, like Horus. This guy doesn't seem that heinous or like he's important enough that he'd be brought back to life, so it seems like they would just straight up kill him

True enough, but that's just down right less exciting haha

We'll alright! It's 40k so anything can happen so go for it!

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

Eisenhorn did this kind of thing to Prophaniti, a Daemon Prince.

It mainly depends on the power of the entity in question. A weaksauce Daemon could be ganked by a powerful Librarian, but a Daemon Primarch would probably require the entire Grey Knights chapter to kill permanently, if it would work at all.

Wasn't it just what Eisenhorn reckoned? So not necessarily a correct assumption?

Considering there was fluff about how some view Tesseract Labyrinths as a way to lasting victory against Daemons I suspect that killing things permanently and completely is either extremely difficult or the power of the Daemon simply goes back to it's patron.

I think that once you "kill" a Daemon, his power is lost forever. That's why in the old fluff, the Chaos Gods quickly pulled out from Horus' body, when Big E vaporized his soul.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

Eisenhorn did this kind of thing to Prophaniti, a Daemon Prince.

It mainly depends on the power of the entity in question. A weaksauce Daemon could be ganked by a powerful Librarian, but a Daemon Primarch would probably require the entire Grey Knights chapter to kill permanently, if it would work at all.

Wasn't it just what Eisenhorn reckoned? So not necessarily a correct assumption?

Considering there was fluff about how some view Tesseract Labyrinths as a way to lasting victory against Daemons I suspect that killing things permanently and completely is either extremely difficult or the power of the Daemon simply goes back to it's patron.

I think that once you "kill" a Daemon, his power is lost forever. That's why in the old fluff, the Chaos Gods quickly pulled out from Horus' body, when Big E vaporized his soul.

Must......... resist.......................giggidy.

Can you imagine if the HH was the Emperor's plan all along, He just needed a powerful enough mortal vessel that the chaos gods could possess so he could destroy them for eternity?

Asurmen perma-kills a Daemon Prince with the Sword of Asur in his book, so a weapon that functions similarly to a Diresword (as in, it contains a potent soul that attacks the enemy from within when you strike them) should be able to do it.

You could include the ritual as a means of empowering the weapon until it reaches the point where it can annihilate someone's soul completely.

You could also have them use Enuncia to do it - it has no defined limits so far but from what we've seen of it, destroying souls should be well within the capability of someone who knows the right words.