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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I have had these threads in the past, and they end up confusing because there are a LOT of topics happening simultaneously. So, I'm going to start with my general houserules only this time. Every week I will post another faction's eratta to allow for more focused conversation.

Spoiler:

General rules
Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.
Storm bolters are strength 5
All twin linked weapons gain a +1 bonus to wound and for armor penetration rolls.
Vehicles are not limited in regards to shooting when performing a ram or tank shock action.
A charging unit only needs to get within 1” of their target to successfully charge.
When a non-superheavy vehicle or building suffers an “explodes!” or “detonates” result, treat the strength of the explosion as being equal to the starting hull points of the vehicle.
All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free.
Smoke launchers may be used when the unit equipped with it is targeted. This replaces the normal benefit (still one use only)
If a piece of wargear increases the toughness of a model equipped, the model in question is still subject to instant death as if it were the original toughness.
Any weapon that is “strengthx2” is now considered “strength+4”
If a unit is embarked in a transport and is subject to the “no escape” rule, the unit inside may use any invulnerable save available to the transport.
glancing hits on vehicles cause an unmodified roll on the vehicle damage table. penetrating hits are the only way to remove hull points.Fortifications take a -1 to rolls on their damage table caused by glancing hits (to a minimum of 1)
if a model has a weapon skill three times or better than the weapon skill of the unit they are targeting they hit on a 2+ (so a model with weapon skill 6 or 7 would hit a ws2 model on a 2+)
Remove any “must be the warlord” stipulations from non-unique characters.
melta/fusion pistols are armorbane instead of melta
Blast weapons do not need to place the center hole over an enemy base. Simply place the template to hit as many models as possible.
Jetbikes have an 18” turboboost, eldar jetbikes have a 24” turboboost.
Any weapon with a strength 4 or higher than a target's toughness wounds automatically.


Superheavy units and rules
A roll of 6 on the Destroyer table does d3+3 hull points or wounds instead of d6+6. Saves may still not be taken.
a "flipped" result on the thunderblitz or stomp table causes a penetrating hit at ap1 instead of the automatic explodes result listed.
An overrun result on the stomp table causes all models under the template to take a strength 10 ap2 hit with the instant death special rule.
a kerr-smash result on the stomp table causes a glancing hit instead of a penetrating hit.
Weapons with the “primary” special rule ignore a weapon destroyed result inflicted against them on a 4+. This replaces the normal benefit.
Super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures that use the “smash” ability to trade their attacks for a single attack treat that single attack as strength D instead of the normal benefits
If a superheavy vehicle or gargantuan monstrous creature is a transport, it is always considered an assault transport.
Superheavy vehicles take damage from the vehicle damage table with the following changes
Ignore the crew shaken and crew stunned result
Immobilized results lower their speed by half. Multiple immobilized results do not lower this further, but do add the extra hullpoint loss as normal
Poison and sniper weapons take no penalty to wounding gargantuan creatures


Changes to u.s.r.s
Stealth: Models that target units with the stealth usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistic skill. This replaces the normal benefit.
Shrouded: Models that target units with the shrouded usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistics skill and gain a +1 bonus to cover saves. This replaces the normal benefit.
Ignores Cover: Units with this special rule don’t take the B.S. penalty for firing at units with the stealth or shrouded special rules. This is in addition to the normal benefit.
Ordnance weapons cause d3 wounds instead of one on any unsaved wound.
When grav weaponry causes an immobilised result, it counts as a glancing hit. Do not remove the initial hullpoint.
Precision shots force their target to reroll any successful “look out sir!” attempts.
Vehicles with the “heavy” type ignore the penalties for firing ordnance weapons and gain the bonus for ramming in addition to the bonus for being a tank if applicable.
Changes to the psychic phase
Any unit attacking a unit under the benefit of the “invisibility” psychic power are treated as having a weapon skill and ballistic skill of one. This replaces the normal benefit.
Psykers in a unit are treated as independent models for the purposes of casting powers and generating warp charges
Witch Fires that have a weapon style profile may choose to automatically succeed but may only spend the minimum warp charges needed to cast from their dice pool. Deny the witch is still used as normal
Monstrous creature changes
Flying monstrous creatures that arrive via deep strike may choose to be swooping or gliding when they arrive. Also, a flying monstrous creature may assault the turn it changes flight mode from swooping to glide.
monstrous creatures and walkers have a 9" base movement.
When an ap1 weapon causes an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, it may immediately roll to wound again. The second wound may not cause further wounds and you may not take cover saves against wounds generated in this way


Ork eratta!
Spoiler:
Cybork body gives a +1 to feel no pain rolls (or a 6+ feel no pain, if the model doesn’t already have feel no pain).
Ork bikes for nobz are 10 points per model, warbikes as “orky know whats are 20
Power klaws are 30 points each, but strike at normal initiative
Big bombs for deff koptas are used exactly like a bombing run for a flyer. 5 points to purchase
Buzz saw upgrade for deff kopta is 15 points. Causes hammer of wrath to be done at strength 6 ap2
Deff rolla always causes d3 strength 10 ap4 hits when tank shocking or ramming and ignores dangerous terrain tests. 20 points to upgrade
Remove the (maximum 12”) from boarding planks
Mob rule chart causes automatic pass on a roll of 7+
Bosspoles add or subtract one on mob rule chart per pole.
Mob rule causes d3 hits instead of d6
Lootas may take a looted wagon as a dedicated transport.
Ork nobz are 14 points base, the boss nob is 16.
Boss nobz are Ld8 instead of 7
Price changes
Gargantuan squiggoth: 390 points
Trukk 35 ramshackle rule returned to the one printed in the ork codex for 4th edition.
Dakkajet 90
Burna Bommer 105
Blitza Bommer 125
Warbuggies 20
Battlewagon 95 (killkannon is a 15 point upgrade)
Deff Dread (add “’ere we go!” power klaw upgrades are 5 points each, 5 attacks base) 85
Killa kans (3 attacks base) 35
Gorkanaut (6hp superheavy walker gains effigy rule from stompa) 270
Morkanaut (6 HP superheavy walker gains effigy rule from stompa) 260
Stompa 760
Big mek stompa 785
Kustom battle fortress 420


Ork multi-formation detachment
Spoiler:
Ork M.F.D. “Ork WAAAGH!”
An “Ork WAAAGH!” detachment consists of the following
1-3 core choices
1+ auxiliary choices
0-1 command choice per core choice


Command benefits: Boss of da WAAAGH! Reroll warlord traits from Codex:Orks.
Stampede: units with 10 or more models when they declare a charge gain hammer of wrath.
“WAAAGH!” your warlord may declare an additional “WAAAGH!” per game.
Tide of violence: if your WAAAGH! Detachment has at least 2 core formations with one headed by a big mek and another by a warboss, units in the formation don’t suffer penalties for disordered charges during a round when a “WAAAGH!” was declared.


Core choices: “green tide” and “dread mob” from the ork supplement “Waaagh! Ghazghkull”
And the ork warband
Ork warband
1 warboss or big mek
0-3 mekboy
0-2 painboyz
1-3 units of nobz or meganobz
3-6 units of boyz
1-6 units of gretchen
Command benefits: reroll warlord trait from codexrks.
Da clans! Your army gains the following benefit depending of what clan you choose
Goff: your warlord may declare an additional “Waaagh!” per game, and may choose to do so starting turn one
Evil sunz: units on bikes gain “skilled rider”. Trukks purchased as dedicated transports gain “red paintjob” for free and receive a 5+ cover save if they moved flat out until the start of their next turn.
Bad moons: one weapon wielded by any characters in this formation gains the “mastercrafted” special rule.
Snakebite: melee weapons gain the “poison (6+)” special rule.
Deathskullz: units in this formation gain objective secured. Also, any wrecked enemy vehicle is considered a 1 point objective at the end of the game (for both armies).
Blood axes: models in this formation gain a +1 to cover saves on the first turn. They may also add or subtract 1 from any roll made on the “mob rule” table.




Auxiliary choices
“Blitz Brigade”, “Air Armada”, and “Mekboyz’ Big Stuff” from the ork supplement “WAAAGH! Ghazghkull”






Speed Freaks
3 units of bikerboyz
2-5 units of warbuggies or deffkoptas.
Command benefit: outflank. If deployed in outflank reserves, the owning player chooses when the formation arrives. This includes the first turn. The whole formation must arrive at the same time.


Da Flashiest of Gitz
3 units of flash gitz
3 mekboyz
Restrictions: each mekboy must be placed in a different unit from this formation
Command benefits: while the mekboy is alive, their unit rolls a d3+1 for their ap value instead of a d6


Kunnin’ Lil’ Runts...
1-3 gretchen units
1-5 mek gun batteries
Command benefits: if a mek gun battery is targeting a unit within 6” of a gretchen unit, they count their guns as twin linked.


Dakkamob
3-5 units of lootas
1 bigmek
While the bigmek is alive, all loota units from this formation add 1 to their rolls to determine their shots fired this phase.


Broozas
5 units of nobz or meganobz
Command benefit: all units in the formation gain stubborn and rampage.


“Strategists!?!”
3 units of kommandos
3 units of stormboyz
Command benefit: all ranged weapons on the kommandos gain “pinning”. Stormboyz that deep strike within 6” of kommandos from this formation do not scatter.


Speshulists
3-5 units of burna boyz and/or tankbustas
Command benefit: one unit type, models from this formation gain “prefered enemy” against that unit type for the duration of the game.


Command choices
All of the named characters from codex: orks and their supplements, and the following


Da Bigmek’s finest
1 bigmek
3-5 mekboyz
Restrictions: all mekboys must be in the same unit as the bigmek. If he leaves a unit, they may also leave, so long as they remain in coherency with the bigmek.
Command benefits: the bigmek gains a bonus to certain pieces of wargear depending on how many of his mekboyz are in his unit.
Add 2” of range to the tellyporta blasta per mekboy
Roll 1d6 per mekboy (as opposed to 2d6) for the strength of the shokk-attack gun and choose 2
The kustom forcefield grants an invulnerable save to all models within 3” of the mekboyz in addition to the normal range.


oddboyz
2-3 weirdboyz
1 unit of orkboyz
Restrictions: all must join as one unit, no other independent characters may join the unit.
Command benefits: reroll all failed psychic tests. When a weirdboy would lose a wound due to perils of the warp, lose d3 boyz instead. If there are not enough boyz left, then center a small blast template over the weirdboy who cast the power. This is a strength D ap2 template with the vortex special rule.


Craft world eldar changes
Spoiler:
Eldar jetbikes only give a 4+ armor save
Windrider jetbike units have a 4+ save instead of 3+.
Scatter Lasers are str5 instead of 6
Eldar missile launchers have a 36” range and are only 5 points more expensive than bright lances etc. whenever available as an upgrade.
Warp Spiders may only use their flicker jump special rules once per player turn and may not use it against overwatch.
monofilament weapons treat penetrating hits as glancing hits.
The warlock conclave does not generate warp charges based on its mastery level in addition to the rules presented in their profile
the aspect warrior host may not all be the same aspect, and only receive the bonus to ws/bs when within 12" of another unit from the same formation. Shadow spectres may be chosen as part of this formation.
wraithguard may not fire overwatch unless joined by a psyker.
All weapons with the “bladestorm” special rule are changed to an ap of “-”
eldar titan holo fields only affect ranged attacks.
Points adjustments
Wave Serpent 125
Crimson hunter 135
Vyper 40
Hemlock wraithfighter 185
Falcon 140
Fire Prism 125
Nightspinner same
War walker same
wraithlord same
wraithknight (wraith cannons) 345 lose "jump"
wraithknight (“sword and board”) 350 lose "jump"
wraithknight (suncannon) 310 lose "jump"
avatar of khaine 200
Phantom titan: 1050 points and may add phantom pulsars (424 each) phantom D-cannon (330 each), or the phantom ccw (170)
Revenant titan: 950 points


Tyranid and genestealer cult changes
Spoiler:
Tyranids
Tyranid prime has an additional wound added to it's profile. It may take wings (changing its type to jump infantry) for 10 points.
Models that have the instinctive behavior rule may return to play when destroyed on a 6+
The Swarmlord is a Lord of War and grants the swarm leader benefit to all models within 18”
Genestealers have stealth. genestealers may add hit and run for 1 point per model. scything talons are only 2 points per model.
Shadows in the warp cause all enemy psykers to manifest psychic powers at a -1 penalty (normally 5+) in addition to the penalty to Leadership.
Pyrovores breath weapon gains the torrent special rule and may have up to 5 in a unit
Monstrous bio cannons have their point costs changed to the following: twin linked devourers with brainleech worms: 25 points. Twin linked deathspitter: same. Stranglethorn cannon: 10 points. Heavy venom cannon: 15 points
Points adjustments
Hive tyrants point total raised to 175 points
Old one eye is now 140 points
Tervigon becomes 150 points
Haruspex becomes 120 points
Harpy becomes 150 points
Hive crone stays the same
Carnifex becomes 90 points
Trygon becomes 170
Trygon prime becomes 205 points
Mawlock stays 140 points
Exocrine becomes 105 points
Tyrannofex becomes 105 points and the upgrade to rupture cannon only costs 5 points
Barbed hierodule: 477 points
Harridan: 644 points
Hierophant bio titan: the titan field becomes a 3+ invul save same price
Maleceptor becomes 145 points
Toxicrene becomes 165
Sporocyst becomes 75
Tyrannocyte becomes 80

Genestealer cult
Battle brothers with tyranids, may not join units with instinctive behavior or synapse. Units with these rules may not join genestealer cult units.


Astra militarum
Spoiler:
Astra Militarum
Commissar Yarrick is a Lord of War.
Chimera, Taurox and Taurox Primes may be selected as fast attack choices.
Any unit in the infantry platoon section of the codex may be purchased individually taking up a troop slot in most detachments.
When a conscript unit is removed as a casualty, an identical unit goes into ongoing reserve on a 4+.
The taurox prime has the command vehicle trait, both versions of the taurox may be open topped for free
Rough riders have an additional wound each
Vox casters give the following benefit: if a command squad and the target of an order it is issuing are both equipped with vox casters, there is no longer a maximum command range and the units do not require line of sight. This also allows commands to be issued from the inside of fortifications/vehicles and to units within fortifications/ vehicles.
Ogryn fire overwatch at full ballistic skill
Hotshot lasguns become assault 2 instead of rapid fire. Hot shot laspistols are 12” range.
Tempestus scion units have one higher leadership
Militarum Tempestus
Any unit embarked in a flyer chosen from this detachment, and any units placed in deep strike reserves may begin arriving from reserves starting in turn one. They must be rolled for normally.
Gain all the relevant bonuses listed under astra Militarum above
Adjusted points for vehicles
Baneblade: 485 points
Banehammer: 348 points
Banesword: 420 points
Doomhammer: 395 points
Hellhammer:530 points
Shadowsword: 365
Stormlord: 470
Stormsword: 475
Manticore 135
Leman russ
battletank 125
exterminator 140
vanquisher 125
eradicator 145
demolisher 145
punisher 125
executioner 145
wyvern 90
basilisk 90
hellhound 95
devildog 90
banewolf 100
hydra (add interceptor to hydra autocannon) 75
chimera 65
taurox 55
taurox prime (add command vehicle) 85
scout sentinel 35
armored sentinel 35
fortress of arrogance 815
Macharius: 270
Macharius vanquisher: 290
Macharius Vulcan: 350
Malkador: 185
Malkador annihilator: 220
Malkador defender: 255
Malkador infernus: same @275


Chaos space Marines
Spoiler:
Chaos Space Marines
All non-vehicle chaos space marine units (with the exception of cultists) gain the following special rule...
Fear is for the weak: If the unit fails a morale, pinning, or fear test remove one non-character model from the unit. The unit then counts as having passed the test instead. If there are no models left besides characters, the unit fails the check.
If your detachment isn't given a traitor legion they may opt to use a chapter tactic available to codex: space marine. This bonus is not applied to cultists, units with veterans of the long war, or any vehicle that isn't a dreadnaught/hellbrute. The only unique character allowed is Huron Blackheart.
if a unit with the daemon keyword takes a mark of the chaos gods, they may also gain the daemon of chaos bonus listed with the daemon prince for that god for free. if they choose to do so, they replace fearless for daemonic instability (see codex: chaos daemons).
Change "space marines" to "armies of the imperium" whenever a bonus would be applied to a unit against that faction.
Aspiring champions and Aspiring Sorcerers can take terminator armor for 15 points.
When a character from the army issues or accepts a challenge, roll on the Chaos Boon Table immediately (instead of afterward). If the character is fighting in a challenge with a unique character, add +1 to the tens dice for determining the Boon (max of 6).
Chaos marines may purchase one special weapon per 5 models.
Rhinos may take assault ramps as an upgrade for 10 points. This makes them assault vehicles
Abaddon is a Lord of War.
mark of nurgle causes a -1 penalty to wound instead of a +1 to toughness.
Rhinos may be selected as a fast attack choice.
warp talons do not roll for scatter when entering from deep strike reserves.
If a character becomes a Daemon Prince via the Dark Apotheosis it retains any wargear options that the Demon Prince could have chosen. Any armor worn becomes a 3+ armor save.
If a model with daemonic possession would consume a vehicle it is transporting, that vehicle suffers a glancing hit instead. The daemonic possession upgrade also grants the “daemon” special rule.
Two out of every 5 terminators in each unit may select a heavy weapon.
Mutilators may assault on the turn they arrive via deep strike
Oblitorators gain the following weapon as opposed to the normal option
Mutagenic cannonade range 36” strength 7 AP d3 type heavy 2,mutagenic
Mutagenic: choose an option from the following list before rolling to determine your ap value. Blast, shred, melta, or gain the “template” range. The model has this special rulew until the start of your next turn. You may not choose the same option for two consecutive turns.
Points adjustments(with this setup, any monstrous creatures that have the “demon forge” rule lose a wound instead of a hullpoint when they roll a “1” after activation, explode when they lose their last wound just like a vehicle would due to an explodes result, and are allowed to fire one more weapon than usual when shooting)
Khorne Lord of Skulls: add gaze of pain (24’ S10 ap1 heavy 2) init 4, and 3 hull points 888 points
Forge fiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 165
Maulerfiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 140
Defiler (gains the “crawler” special rule from codex: skitarii) 195
Helldrake (becomes a flying monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save also has WS3 A3 and S7) 175
Daemon prince 105
Hellbrute (4A base fielded in units of 1-3) 100
Land raider 255 ( becomes a fast vehicle)
Vindicator 95 (1-3)
Predator 75 (1-3)
Rhino 35
Thunderhawk gunship: 588
drop pod: 40 points. Can be taken as a dedicated transport by any unit that can normally take a rhino. may take dirge casters.


Tau Empire
Spoiler:

Hammerheads equipped with railguns that did not purchase the submunitions option may make their railgun strength D instead for 30 points
Kroot that are in the allied advance cadre formation gain stealth (ruins) vespids in the formation gain shrouded (ruins)
Vespids have rending on all melee attacks and their weapons have an 18” range
(Removed change to stimulant injectors due to misinterpretation of original point cost)
tau monstrous creatures gain the "mecha" special rule. this rule makes them immune to poison and fleshbane. however, melta and armourbane weapons are treated as ordnance weapons when fired at these units and haywire weapons wound them on a 2+ with a "6" being ap2.
Smart missile systems are 5 points more than burst cannons when chosen as an upgrade
Points adjustments
Ghost Keel 140
Riptide (10 points to upgrade to the ion accelerator change saving throw to 3+) 180
Piranhas 45
Devilfish 80
Sunshark bomber 125
Razorshark 100
Hammerhead 105
Skyray 105
Stormsurge (av13/13/12 open topped superheavy walker with 8hp) 390


Dark eldar
Spoiler:
Items that state units with “... and they shall know no fear” are immune no longer have this restriction.
Hellions can use their jump packs in the movement and assault phase and gain rage.
Wyches get their agile invulnerable save during the assault phase (not just the combat sub phase). They also take no penalty for multi assault.
Change the following combat drugs
Hypex: add 3” to the maximum movement distance for run and assault moves.
Painbringer: gain the “shred” special rule.
Splintermind: gain the “zealot” special rule.

If an hq unit with the independent character rule has the option for a venom as a dedicated transport, the venom gains the “chariot” type and has their transport capacity reduced to 1. (invulnerable saves purchased/ used by the character do not confer to the transport)
Succubi and archons may take a reaver jetbike for 15 points and ghostplate armor for 5.
Scourges are jetpack infantry instead of jump pack
Dark lances are a free upgrade for disintegrator cannons whenever available as an option. If both may be purchased as an upgrade, their cost is the same.
Ravagers have a transport capacity of 6
Nightshields grant the shrouded special rule if the unit already has stealth for any reason.
Incubi ignore the penalties to initiative for charging into cover.
The “blood dancer” warlord trait is changed to the following. “While in melee, if the warlord’s weapon skill or initiative are higher than their target’s, their attacks gain the rending special rule. If both weapon skill AND I initiative are higher, their attacks also gain the “fleshbane” special rule.”
Named characters from the 5th edition codex may be used for the point totals listed with the following changes.
Asdrubael Vect: has the labyrinthine cunning warlord trait and an additional roll on any warlord trait table in the BRB.
Lady Malys: roll twice on the warlord trait table in the dark eldar codex
Duke Sliscus: has the towering arrogance warlord trait. He also grants a re roll for scatter for any venom, raider, or ravager that enters play from deep strike reserves
Baron Sathonyx: has the soul thirst warlord trait and doesn’t change the position of hellions in the force organization chart
Points adjustments
Raider 55
Venom 55
Razorwing jetfighter 105
Ravager 100
Voidraven bomber 135
Talos pain engine 115
Chronos parasite engine 90


Dark eldar M.F.D.
Spoiler:
Dark eldar M.F.D. Shadow Harvest
A Shadow Harvest detachment consists of
1+ core
1+auxiliary
0-5 command
Command benefits: +1 to power from pain table.
Reroll warlord traits from codex: dark eldar
If there is no night fighting on turn one, then night fighting starts on turn five and continues until the end of the game. In addition, all units gain a +1 to cover when night fighting is in effect.
DARK OLYMPIAD
1 succubus
1-3 units of wyches
1-2 units of hellions
1-2 units of reavers
Command benefits: Reroll warlord traits from codex: dark eldar
Units from this formation may roll twice on combat drugs and apply both results.
Units from this formation may run and charge in the same turn, starting turn 2.

KABALITE WAR PARTY
1 archon
0-2 incubi
1-3 kabalite warriors
1-2 court of the archon
1-2 ravagers
Command benefits: Reroll warlord traits from codex: dark eldar
Starting turn two, all units in the formation choose to gain either the monster hunter or tank hunter special rules. They can not choose the same benefit for two consecutive turns.

CARNIVAL OF PAIN
1 homunculus
1-3 units of wracks
1-3 units of grotesques
0-2 units of talos
0-2 unit of chronos
Command traits: Reroll warlord traits from codex: dark eldar
units in this formation have scout
enemies take -1 to leadership when within 6" of unit in this formation.

Command choices
1 archon and court
1 lelith hesperax/ succubus
1 homunculus/ Urien rakarth.
Auxiliary choices

SICKLE SQUADRON
2 razorwing jet fighters
1 voidraven bomber
Command benefit: Models from this formation have the vector strike special rule with a strength score of 6



COMMORAGH'S ELITE
3 units of kabalite trueborn, hekatrix bloodbrides, and/or incubi
Restrictions: all units must purchase the character upgrade they have available
Command benefits: units in this formation receive +1 weapon skill, and ranged weapons gain the pinning special rule.

SKYHUNTERS
3 units of scourges
Command benefit: models in this formation gain twin linked on their ranged weapons on a turn they enter from deepstrike reserves. Roll for reserves for the whole formation, as opposed to individual units.

INCUBI MURDERHOST
3 units of Incubi
0-1 Draazar
Restrictions: one unit must take a klaivex
Command benefit: units in this formation gain fear and the “hit and run” special rules.

RAVAGER TITAN HUNTERS
3-5 ravagers
Command benefit: Declare one unit at the start of each shooting phase, models in this formation count as ballistic skill 5 when shooting at that target.



PAIN ENGINES
one unit of chronos or talos
DARK MURDERERS
one unit of mandrakes
ARENA MENAGERIE
one unit of beasts.


Adeptus Astartes
Spoiler:
Space Marines
“... and they shall know no fear” only grants rerolls to fear tests as opposed to outright immunity.
black templar crusader squads may be chosen whenever a formation requires a tactical marine squad.
A captain purchased in a formation may be upgraded to a chapter master.
You must reroll all of the dice when using grav-amps
Tactical terminators may have two models equip a heavy weapon out of every five.
Points adjustments
Thunderhawk gunship: 588
Vindicator 95
Predator 75
Rhino 35
Land raider 255
Drop pod 40
Dreadnaught (4A base) 100
Razorback 55
Landspeeder 50
Landspeeder storm 60
Whirlwind 55
Land raider crusader 250
Land raider redeemer 245
Stormraven 230
Stormtalon 120
Hunter 75
Stalker 85
Ironclad dreadnaught 150

Space Wolves
Wolf Scouts gain stealth
Fenrisian wolves purchased as wargear for Space Wolf characters may embark in transports.
Rune priests may not take the librarius psychic discipline.
Wolf guard terminators may equip 2 out of every 5 models with a heavy weapon option
Space wolves models lose the benefit of counter attack and acute senses if they share a unit with models without the “spacewolf” faction
Wulfen models do not get to attack for free when killed in combat. Units under the effect of mark of the wulfen count their ws and bs as one lower.
price adjustments
Bjorn the fellhanded (5A base) 200
Murderfang (6A base) 135
Stormwolf 215
Stormfang 195

Grey Knights
Use the basic stat line for rhino based tanks you already have access to from the codex space marine book. Your optional upgrades remain the same.
All units that begin the game in terminator armor have their points reduced by 5 each and two out of every 5 models in these units may select a ranged heavy weapon option available to them
Price adjustments
Nemesis dreadknight (av 12/12/11 with 4 HP and 5 attacks base open topped walker) 160

Blood Angels
Use the basic stat line for rhino based tanks you already have access to from the codex space marine book. Your optional upgrades remain the same.
Tactical marines may exchange their bolt pistols for close combat weapons for free.
All units that begin the game in terminator armor have their points reduced by 5 each. Adding stormshields and thunder hammers is 5 points more expensive for assault terminators
Add chapter master profile from the space Marine codex
The battle demicompany for an angel’s blade detachment gains the following benefits instead of what is listed
Reroll warlord traits
Objective secured
May add the turn number to any charge distances rolled (maximum +5)
An angel’s blade detachment with two core choices each lead by a chaplain/captain may take any upgrade available on rhinos, razorbacks, and drop pods selected as dedicated transports for free.
Price adjustments
Librarian dreadnought (4 attacks base) 155
Furioso dreadnought (4 attacks base, unit of 1-3) 115
Baal predator 100
Death company dreadnought (5 attacks base, unit of 1-3) 130

Dark Angels
Models with the “ravenwing”, “deathwing”, and ”grim resolve” lose the benefit of these rules if they are in a unit with models that don’t have the “dark angels” faction

Models that purchase dedicated transports in the deathwing Detachment/formation may begin the game embarked within them instead of starting in deep strike reserves.
Land speeder vengeance 110
Dark shroud and dark talon remain the same
Nephilim jet fighter 165



So, what do you think? I love picking this game appart, so any conversation this causes is always appreciated

Also, let me know what faction you would like me to post first if you have a preference!

Edit: link to my last thread to see where I stood as of a couple months ago. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/689466.page

This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2017/03/26 20:06:57


   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I know what you intended but you may want to re-word Shrouded because right now RAW the wrong unit is getting the cover bonus.
I agree that storm bolters need a boost. I don't agree that S5 is the right answer though. Without changing the rapid fire rule, I suggest either Assault 3 or Salvo 2/4. For my preference however I make them double rapid fire so they are literally two bolters in one statwise.
The charge distance alteration seems unnecessary.
The smoke launchers change feels really weird. Launching smoke canisters isn't something you do when you're already being shot at. It takes time for enough smoke to release to actually provide the cover you need.

In general I like where you're going with this. You may like my rules also. I checked out the previous thread. No love for Dark Angels?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I was going with a halfway point between bolters and heavy bolters on those, and since combibolters get a +1 to wound it would balance out with strength 5.

With the smoke launchers, it was purely for game mechanic benefit. It allows for most tanks to get a bit of defense without wasting their shooting. (Why would a fully loaded leman Russ tank not fire a single gun because everybody in the tank has to pull a lever and hold it for a couple minutes?) So instead the folks inside see someone aiming at them and push the "oh gak!!!" Button and smoke pours out to hide them.

For charge distance, it keeps people from needing to finagle about base contact to deny the charge due to terrain. It also allows a slim chance at a turn one charge if both units start at exactly the front of deployment.

Should I take that as a vote for dark angels?

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







If you gave Troupe Masters three Wounds they might actually succeed in being worth their 35pt price tag.

Most of the rest of this is fairly non-objectionable minor tweaks. The only issues I've got are with Storm Bolters (free psybolt may go some of the way towards making GK work again, but you leave Chaos Terminators out in the cold and I'd rather see Deathwatch Terminators get special ammo than just psybolt) and twin-linking (it's an odd buff and tends to be massive for units that don't really need it (e.g. Deathwatch Bikers, Wave Serpents)).

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




You know you just gave a massive, massive boost to Custodes, right? They're all characters, you just made them an entire unit of 3W models.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Didn't know custodes were all characters, I'll add them to the list! Thank you

As for chaos terminators, their Combi bolters are twin linked

I've never had a problem with troupe masters. They're basically a 35 point archon with a retinue they can't leave and an invulnerable save. (I normally run my warlord with starmist raiment and power sword in a unit with 2 shadowseers...)

   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




My ws12 company command squad are going to wreck face if we ever play a game.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pelicaniforce wrote:
My ws12 company command squad are going to wreck face if we ever play a game.


The reason for the "triple weapon skill hits on 2" rule is so there is a point to any weapon skill above 6. Now a WS 7+ will hit a WS 2 model on a 2+ (meaning melee heavy guys can really wail on Tau if they catch them) and WS 9-10 will hit weapon skill 3 models easier. Since WS 9-10 already have the benefit of being high enough to only be hit on a 5+ by most models, they're already recieving a benefit against those units.

   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




It seems like this is a pretty constant generation of tweaks and adjustments, but I don't know how you would even be able to build and maintain scenery and models, play games with them, and still be able to have a fun game with all these rules used seamlessly by both players.

The rules all have their own reasons, I know, but I think very few of them effect the actual experience of the game, for example the basic interaction of small vs large models, fast vs slow models, units with both small arms and heavies, or veteran units fighting exactly the same way as their basic versions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like, if you have marines/kabalites/sisters, other than equipment options they perform just as well as sternguard/chosen/trueborn/celestians, even though the latter are ones you would expect to be better at surviving and holding on to an objective. That seems more important to me than like an abstract peeve about twin linked not being much better than unlinked.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/22 02:14:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




But with those equipment options you gain survivability by way of destructive capability and therefore viable threat range. If a unit is more likely to cause damage on the return, they have to be dealt with differently. Also, keep in mind that those units you mentioned aren't at all supposed to be better at HOLDING an objective, they're supposed to be TAKING them. If you want units to hold objectives better, then you should be looking at heavy support options instead. Devastators aren't more durable than marines, but their load out means they will be able to contribute more to the fight as a whole.

I don't have the problems a lot of players seem to do in regards to alpha strikes and melee because my tables always have a lot of terrain...

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Didn't know custodes were all characters, I'll add them to the list! Thank you

As for chaos terminators, their Combi bolters are twin linked

I've never had a problem with troupe masters. They're basically a 35 point archon with a retinue they can't leave and an invulnerable save. (I normally run my warlord with starmist raiment and power sword in a unit with 2 shadowseers...)


Or, looked at another way, they're mandatory Exarchs that cost 10pts more and get less out of it for no particular reason.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I get a lot out of my house troupe masters. They are used primarily to kill off lesser models in a unit to allow my troupers to wipe out any heavy hitters. With a power sword and a shadowseer to accept challenges he will eat several guys of limited consequence, then the troupers' basic attacks will finish the job. After that it's kiss time with the only thing left standing being whatever's in the challenge.

If you don't feel they're worth the points, feel free to disagree. But in my games the idea of adding an additional wound to them is overkill.

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I get a lot out of my house troupe masters. They are used primarily to kill off lesser models in a unit to allow my troupers to wipe out any heavy hitters. With a power sword and a shadowseer to accept challenges he will eat several guys of limited consequence, then the troupers' basic attacks will finish the job. After that it's kiss time with the only thing left standing being whatever's in the challenge.

If you don't feel they're worth the points, feel free to disagree. But in my games the idea of adding an additional wound to them is overkill.


I don't want to add an extra wound to them, I want to make them an optional 10pt upgrade instead of a mandatory 20pt upgrade.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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Longtime Dakkanaut




The additional wound, weapon skill, attack, and leadership is worth the points. Their flipbelts let them "look out sir!" Like an independent character meaning they're more survivable than they would normally be as well.

A troupe doesn't go into combat without their troupe master, I wouldn't change that personally if for nothing more than fluff reasons.

Edit: don't forget that I am adding faction specific rules to this over the next several weeks as well. You will see almost every vehicle and monstrous creature in the game rebalanced as well as some clarification/eratta for a lot of units and faction specific special rules!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/22 08:09:04


   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Okay, I'm going to go down these one at a time, though grouped into things that seem to go 'together'.


Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.
If a piece of wargear increases the toughness of a model equipped, the model in question is still subject to instant death as if it were the original toughness.
Any weapon that is “strengthx2” is now considered “strength+4”
Any weapon with a strength 4 or higher than a target's toughness wounds automatically.

All of these taken together create some pretty noteworthy "Problems". Namely, you're giving advantages to models and characters with inherently high stats, while generally weakening models that rely on wargear to get the job done, or even be remotely viable. If you're a T5 models, the number of enemies that can Instant Death you just dropped considerably - Wulfen and TWC for one, Warbosses, really pretty much any S5 model just took a huge nerf, and while Wulfen and TWC will probably still be okay, Warbosses are already barely useable, and making them unable to ID against T5 is a pretty big blow.
T4 models, on the other hand, take pretty huge nerfs - While a T5 model will now almost never take Instant Death in melee, a T4 model will be taking it just as often as always, and T4 models who use bikes to survive will now be incredibly vulnerable, which is a problem for a lot of units that rely on their good Toughness to survive.
Super high strength getting autowounds also seems to go along with the philosophy of 'Good stats should be better than good equipment'. If you're inherently a high strength model, you just got a really great buff, since you no longer have the possibility of a bad roll costing you. (Also, a lot of those "Trade your attacks for a single uber-powered attack" relics just got insanely OP.)

Storm bolters are strength 5
All twin linked weapons gain a +1 bonus to wound and for armor penetration rolls.

You know there are ways to get twin-linked Storm Bolters, right? In fact, it's not very hard. This is a problem, because it means you effectively have S6 Storm Bolters, which goes from 'making them stronger' to 'Way too good.' In general, making all twin-linked weapons better is going to cause a lot of problems. Many weapons rely on being twin-linked and having massed fire to get lots of weaker hits, but now they're just going to get lots of hits, period.

Vehicles are not limited in regards to shooting when performing a ram or tank shock action.
A charging unit only needs to get within 1” of their target to successfully charge.
When a non-superheavy vehicle or building suffers an “explodes!” or “detonates” result, treat the strength of the explosion as being equal to the starting hull points of the vehicle.
All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free.
Smoke launchers may be used when the unit equipped with it is targeted. This replaces the normal benefit (still one use only)

I can see where you're going with ramming, but the problem with ramming has never been that it denies you shooting, it's that ramming just isn't very useful. You might hurt yourself, it doesn't cause a lot of damage, and it's just generally a bad idea.
Making explodes results weaker is probably a good idea. Especially for units that rely on light transports, it's going to help a lot.
So is giving out Flakk missiles for free, since as it currently stands, missile launchers are overcosted, and paying 10pts for a crappy skyfire shot doesn't help.
Smoke launchers, though... That seems too strong. Being able to use it when targeted means that all the drawbacks are gone, while making the benefit far better, because your opponent can't decide to avoid your smoked-up target for a more vulnerable choice.

If a unit is embarked in a transport and is subject to the “no escape” rule, the unit inside may use any invulnerable save available to the transport.
glancing hits on vehicles cause an unmodified roll on the vehicle damage table. penetrating hits are the only way to remove hull points.Fortifications take a -1 to rolls on their damage table caused by glancing hits (to a minimum of 1)
if a model has a weapon skill three times or better than the weapon skill of the unit they are targeting they hit on a 2+ (so a model with weapon skill 6 or 7 would hit a ws2 model on a 2+)
Remove any “must be the warlord” stipulations from non-unique characters.
melta/fusion pistols are armorbane instead of melta
Blast weapons do not need to place the center hole over an enemy base. Simply place the template to hit as many models as possible.
Jetbikes have an 18” turboboost, eldar jetbikes have a 24” turboboost.

I like the use of invulns against no escape stuff.
I see where you're going with the change to glancing and penetrating hits, but the problem is that you just made guntanks effectively unusable, and all tanks incredibly vulnerable - Unless they're being used as arbitrary LOS blockers. The fact that any Glancing hit will not almost always prevent the target from shooting is HUGE. It also makes Hull Points pretty much a null item, but allowing tons of rolls on the damage chart will make any gun tank completely useless.
Making the pistols armorbane instead of melta is... Not too big of a deal, purely because those pistols are pretty rare, but it does give them a pretty huge buff that I don't think I need.
That change to blast weapons would probably make them more viable, I'd just add the adendum that they still need to target a specific unit.
Do you really want Eldar jetbikes crossing the entire board in a single turn? They're good enough as is.



Superheavy units and rules
A roll of 6 on the Destroyer table does d3+3 hull points or wounds instead of d6+6. Saves may still not be taken.
a "flipped" result on the thunderblitz or stomp table causes a penetrating hit at ap1 instead of the automatic explodes result listed.
An overrun result on the stomp table causes all models under the template to take a strength 10 ap2 hit with the instant death special rule.
a kerr-smash result on the stomp table causes a glancing hit instead of a penetrating hit.
Weapons with the “primary” special rule ignore a weapon destroyed result inflicted against them on a 4+. This replaces the normal benefit.
Super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures that use the “smash” ability to trade their attacks for a single attack treat that single attack as strength D instead of the normal benefits
If a superheavy vehicle or gargantuan monstrous creature is a transport, it is always considered an assault transport.
Superheavy vehicles take damage from the vehicle damage table with the following changes
Ignore the crew shaken and crew stunned result
Immobilized results lower their speed by half. Multiple immobilized results do not lower this further, but do add the extra hullpoint loss as normal
Poison and sniper weapons take no penalty to wounding gargantuan creatures

So... Nobody should take Superheavy vehicles ever again, then? The problem with Super Heavies in 5th edition was that they would get killed long before they ever actually were destroyed - You l needed two succesful 'Weapon Destroyed' results to completely break a Warhound, for example. Making transports into Assault transports is nice, if you play Orks and want your Stompa to be half useful, but it's not a major buff for most armies. Combining this with your modified vehicle rules listed above, and Super-heavies are going to be effectively neutered from doing anything at all after turn one.
Also: While I agree that the '6' results for Stomp and Destroyer hits should be toned down a little, I don't think making the Stomp result do comparatively nothing and the Destroyer hit half as good is the way to go. D6+3 wounds for the Destroyer table seems like a better compromise to me, and making a 6 on the Stomp table just cause a single D hit for every model under the template seems like a much better option in my opinion. (That way, 200+ point special characters aren't out in the cold, but it still slaughters anything weaker.)


Changes to u.s.r.s
Stealth: Models that target units with the stealth usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistic skill. This replaces the normal benefit.
Shrouded: Models that target units with the shrouded usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistics skill and gain a +1 bonus to cover saves. This replaces the normal benefit.
Ignores Cover: Units with this special rule don’t take the B.S. penalty for firing at units with the stealth or shrouded special rules. This is in addition to the normal benefit.

NO. Making Stealth/Shrouded into a -bs doesn't nerf it, it makes it far, far better. Any unit with a good armor save that also has access to these rules will become effectively unkillable, giving you the 'Invisibility deathstar' effect without even needing to rely on a Psyker to get it. As an Ork player, also, the idea of having my guns literally incapable of firing at you because of a fairly common combo of rules is pretty overpowered.


Ordnance weapons cause d3 wounds to monstrous creatures instead of one on any unsaved wound.
When grav weaponry causes an immobilised result, it counts as a glancing hit. Do not remove the initial hullpoint.
Precision shots force their target to reroll any successful “look out sir!” attempts.
Vehicles with the “heavy” type ignore the penalties for firing ordnance weapons and gain the bonus for ramming in addition to the bonus for being a tank if applicable.

That's kinda too strong for Ordnance weapons. Give them a re-roll to wound like they get against vehicles, but making it D3 wounds makes most Tyranids kinda even more terrible than they already are.

Changes to the psychic phase
Any unit attacking a unit under the benefit of the “invisibility” psychic power are treated as having a weapon skill and ballistic skill of one. This replaces the normal benefit.
Psykers in a unit are treated as independent models for the purposes of casting powers and generating warp charges
Witch Fires that have a weapon style profile may choose to automatically succeed but may only spend the minimum warp charges needed to cast from their dice pool. Deny the witch is still used as normal

I like that Invisibility fix. Making Psykers into individual models for the purposes of casting powers might bring back the Screamerstar and other rather OP deathstars, but it's not terrible.
Making witchfires into a free autocast is a terrible, terrible idea though. While it does mean that low warp-charge powers will at least still be easy to deny, it still effectively halves the cost while vastly increasing the reliability of witchfires, many of which didn't need any kind of buff. (I shudder to think of some of the Tzeentch witchfires autocasting, for example. Also, combining this with the 'Everyone in the squad can cast powers individually' means that we're ABSOLUTELY going to get back the 6th edition Screamerstar combo of '4 Heralds in a squad with the Conjuration locus, all casting WC3 Flickering Fire from their 2++ rerollable bunker unit'.


Monstrous creature changes
Flying monstrous creatures that arrive via deep strike may choose to be swooping or gliding when they arrive. Also, a flying monstrous creature may assault the turn it changes flight mode from swooping to glide.
monstrous creatures and walkers have a 9" base movement.
When an ap1 weapon causes an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, it may immediately roll to wound again. The second wound may not cause further wounds and you may not take cover saves against wounds generated in this way

You know why they changed the rules in 7th so that FMCs couldn't land and charge in the same turn, right? It's because Flying Circus armies were absolutely dominating any army that didn't have AA, and there was literally nothing that many armies could do about it - To bring up Orks again, they had no way to shoot down the FMC in the air, and once it was on the ground, it was already charging, so the Orks couldn't stop it there either.

Also, combining your AP1 bonus with your Ordnance bonus makes it possible for a single AP1 Ordnance weapon to literally one-shot a 6w Monstrous Creature.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Units with inherent toughness 5 are very rare, meaning the aforementioned ork warboss, assault centurions, and ogryn are now less likely to be wiped out before getting to swing. Since the vast VAST majority of toughness 5 models are still instant deathed by str9 now, and it allows you to auto wound them those bonuses and penalties even out. Also, nobody ever takes those single Uber attack relics because of how easily they do nothing. This actually makes them viable, not op. It also makes it make more sense to try and smash things.

Twin linked storm bolters are extremely rare. The reason for the buff to twin linked options is to show their ability to cause more damage without increasing the likelihood of causing instant death.

The impetus for the change to tank shock is to increase survivability for tanks that are threatened by melee units. Now they can rush them and still fire at them. Also, superheavy tanks like the baneblades also lose all of their shooting for moving 6" with some dudes in front of them. That's pretty nuts.

A vehicle that is just stunned or shaken needs to be shot at next turn as well. Meaning if you only caused one glancing hit a turn you would probably still have that tank rolling around snapshooting every turn instead of being dead on turn 3. In regards to things like the warhound, reread what "primary" does for weapons and think about the category for most superheavy level weapon options. So IF the opponent happened to roll that 1/6 chance on the chart, it would still only do something 1/2 of the time.

The change to stealth and shrouded is to do exactly what you're talking about. I don't allow it to lower be below 1 so it really affects Orks less than other armies.

Eldar jetbikes currently move 36" turbo boost. So making it 24" is a serious nerf.

Allowing flying monstrous creatures to drop and fight will keep them from just flying around anihilating armies with no skyfire.

There are very few ap1 ordinance weapons available, and the idea that they threaten monstrous creatures to a single for shot kill (even if it is significantly less likely than it is for vehicles) makes them not the auto include they are now. Ensuring there are legitimate counters does nothing but increase options in the game.

If you want, I can post my Tyranids update next to show where they stand, or the Orks (which are really fun)

Edit: because posting on a phone is a pain...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/23 04:33:55


   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
...Eldar jetbikes currently move 36" turbo boost. So making it 24" is a serious nerf...


Someday I will run across someone who understands exactly why Windriders are broken, and who has a change to propose for them that would be relevant instead of a random tangential shot in the dark.

But apparently not today.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
...Eldar jetbikes currently move 36" turbo boost. So making it 24" is a serious nerf...


Someday I will run across someone who understands exactly why Windriders are broken, and who has a change to propose for them that would be relevant instead of a random tangential shot in the dark.

But apparently not today.


This first post covers overall gameplay and anything that crosses multiple codexes.

I haven't posted my houserules for my craft world/ corsair eldar yet. (Hint, jetbikes give a 4+ armor save, scatterlaser are strength 5) take that and the lowering of their tabletop max speed by 1/4 and you've suddenly got a unit that has a role to fill without being rediculous.

You could have simply asked for my next post to be eldar like the first post suggests instead of deciding what I do or don't believe in regards to balance for me...

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
...Eldar jetbikes currently move 36" turbo boost. So making it 24" is a serious nerf...


Someday I will run across someone who understands exactly why Windriders are broken, and who has a change to propose for them that would be relevant instead of a random tangential shot in the dark.

But apparently not today.


This first post covers overall gameplay and anything that crosses multiple codexes.

I haven't posted my houserules for my craft world/ corsair eldar yet. (Hint, jetbikes give a 4+ armor save, scatterlaser are strength 5) take that and the lowering of their tabletop max speed by 1/4 and you've suddenly got a unit that has a role to fill without being rediculous.

You could have simply asked for my next post to be eldar like the first post suggests instead of deciding what I do or don't believe in regards to balance for me...


Or I could mock the notion that dropping the 36" turbo-boost to 24" is a 'serious nerf'. It's incidental. Irrelevant. Nerfing something the jetbikes don't care that much about doing from very good to just pretty good.

Cutting Windriders to one gun in three fixes the actual problem. Cutting them to armour 4+ promotes consistency across the range of 'Eldar Jetbikes'. Every other change I've ever seen proposed (including dropping Scatter Lasers to S5) is either too broad (hitting vehicles that don't need the hit), irrelevant to the actual issue, or too heavy-handed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/23 08:47:48


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't need the jetbikes to be one in three if they are forced to jink more often. You won't want as many guns in the unitt if they're wasting it

Spending more points on the weapon doesn't make the weapon any less favorable, they just will spend slightly less points on other options.

By the way, the reason I called it a nerf is because
One it is.
Two, the guy thought it was a higher distance than it is currently.

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Storm bolters are strength 5
All twin linked weapons gain a +1 bonus to wound and for armor penetration rolls.

Twin linked storm bolters are extremely rare. The reason for the buff to twin linked options is to show their ability to cause more damage without increasing the likelihood of causing instant death.


Twin-Linked Storm Bolters are extremely rare? Does your Meta not include Rhinos, Drop Pods, Chimeras, or darn near any Imperial vehicles since most come with a Twin-Linked Storm Bolter and can take a second for 10 points?

Personally, rather than adding strength to the storm bolter, making it into mini-Heavy Bolter, you need to but the STORM back in. Assault 4! Now standard terminators are suddenly a destructive shooting unit when used against all but the hardest targets. It also makes the various vehicles with SBs less of a joke when firing. Power Armor Grey Knights might be a little too juiced by this, but there are ways of fixing that.

Now is your Twin-Linked House rule an addition or replacement to the reroll to hit? As a replacement, it gets rid of endless dice rolling, but why isn't the bonus on To Hit rather than damage? As an addition, seems totally unnecessary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/23 16:39:51


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Really? Every one of the rhino based tanks, drop pods, chimeras, and leman Russ tanks all have a "storm bolter" listed. It's why chaos Marines have the combibolter as an equivalent.

(I just went and looked at the space wolves, astra militarum, and grey knights codexes to make sure I was correct on this.)

It is as an addition since the weapon is supposed to be firing more shots, it now includes a slightly better chance to wound as opposed to just rolling more hits.

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

How embarrassing, darn memory.

Stronger Storm Bolters just don't seem to solve any issue with the weapon in comparison to a simple bolter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/24 01:10:03


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




What it does is give grey knights viable shooting, and bridge the difference between storm bolters and heavy stubbers (because one foot shorter range and one less shot doesn't balance out going from AP 6 to 5)

Since a bolt gun is now definitely worse than a storm bolter, it makes more sense to spend the 3 points to upgrade it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/26 02:49:39


   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Ork eratta up in first post.

I wanted to show the a.ount of work I am willing to put into the changes for this, a d the Orks are one of my favorite factions to play as!

As before, any discussion is appreciated

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
If you gave Troupe Masters three Wounds they might actually succeed in being worth their 35pt price tag.

Most of the rest of this is fairly non-objectionable minor tweaks. The only issues I've got are with Storm Bolters (free psybolt may go some of the way towards making GK work again, but you leave Chaos Terminators out in the cold and I'd rather see Deathwatch Terminators get special ammo than just psybolt) and twin-linking (it's an odd buff and tends to be massive for units that don't really need it (e.g. Deathwatch Bikers, Wave Serpents)).

Chaos Terminators should have the Rapid Fire 2 rule, seeing as Combi-Bolters are literally two Bolters strapped together rather than an entirely different weapon altogether.

I've always defended S5 Stormbolters as the best fix, but I agree that Deathwatch Terminators need Special Ammo instead because it IS the gimmick of the Deathwatch. Just make the appropriate adjustments (S4 AP4 Assault 2 30", S4 AP5 Assault 2 Ignores Cover 24", S1 AP5 Assault 2 Poison 2+ 24", and lastly S4 AP3 Assault 2 Gets Hot 18") and it is super simple.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




I'm not a rapper, but I'm good at breakdowns:

Cybork body gives a +1 to feel no pain rolls (or a 6+ feel no pain, if the model doesn’t already have feel no pain).

This is a good idea. Orks don't have much in the way of FNP access outside of Painboyz, so we probably won't end up with a Chapter Master Smashfunky situation. I might add a 'Caps at 3+' rule anyways, though, just to be safe.

Ork bikes for nobz are 10 points per model, warbikes as “orky know whats are 20

Woah woah woah, slow down. Biker Nobz are too pricey, sure, but this is WAY too much of a discount for Biker Nobz! Only 28ppm means that two regular Warbikers is actually more expensive than a single Biker Nob, even though two Warbikers are worse in almost every way. (Except against S10 or in the shooting phase, I guess.) Now, to be fair, with your other rule change of 'Bikes don't protect against instant death' this means that Biker Nobz will still be nerfed a little bit, but 28ppm is still too low. Make it 35ppm to take a bike. (Or, 22 points per bike.) Also: Bikes are the best upgrade in our codex for Warbosses and Big Meks. They don't need to be cheaper.

Power klaws are 30 points each, but strike at normal initiative

This is just an awful idea. Giving Warbosses a weapon that strikes at S10 AP2 I4 is just not a good idea at all. Normally, striking with high strength AP2 is reserved for Monstrous Creatures, Walkers, and really, really powerful Special Characters. The fact that it isn't even a special weapon is worse, because it means that Meganobz are now horribly undercosted, and generally any Ork with a Power Klaw just became far, far too good for their cost.

Big bombs for deff koptas are used exactly like a bombing run for a flyer. 5 points to purchase

Sure, that's fair.

Buzz saw upgrade for deff kopta is 15 points. Causes hammer of wrath to be done at strength 6 ap2

Also fair. I don't know if anyone really uses Buzzsaws currently, because they kind of suck, so changing them like this is good.

Deff rolla always causes d3 strength 10 ap4 hits when tank shocking or ramming and ignores dangerous terrain tests. 20 points to upgrade

Yay! Useful Deff Rollas!

Remove the (maximum 12”) from boarding planks

Sure, I guess. Don't know if that's really necessary.

Mob rule chart causes automatic pass on a roll of 7+

Good idea.

Bosspoles add or subtract one on mob rule chart per pole.

Mostly good, but they shouldn't stack. Just a +/- 1 will do.

Mob rule causes d3 hits instead of d6

Caveat: Make it d3 for Breaking Heads, d6 for Squabble. Make it so that adding a character is more beneficial, but a penalty for Mob Rule still exists.

Lootas may take a looted wagon as a dedicated transport.

Fluffy, but I'm not sure if this is actually really all that useful.

Ork nobz are 14 points base, the boss nob is 16.

No, no, no. Full stop here. You already made Bikes far cheaper, now you're making the Nobz themselves cheaper, bringing down the cost of a Biker nob to just 24 points! That's just way, WAY too low, especially when combined with the increase in power that Power Klaws got.

Boss nobz are Ld8 instead of 7

Fair enough.

Price changes
Trukk 35 ramshackle rule returned to the one printed in the ork codex for 4th edition.

Eh, I dunno. Ramshackle doesn't really work how it was intended if you just port it over into 7th ed. At the very least, it needs some tweaks to function with the strength of the explosion being different in modern rules than it was in 4th ed.

Dakkajet 90
Burna Bommer 105
Blitza Bommer 125

Fair enough, but Ork Fliers are still gonna suck. They just don't do very much, no matter how cheap you make them.

Warbuggies 20

Again, fair enough, but this doesn't really 'Fix' them, it just creates power creep and doesn't address the inherent problems with Warbuggies.

Battlewagon 95 (killkannon is a 15 point upgrade)

This upgrade makes more sense, since it just brings the cost down to almost what it used to be.

Deff Dread (add “’ere we go!” power klaw upgrades are 5 points each, 5 attacks base) 85

I don't see this as a good idea. It's not horrible, but you're not so much creating fixes as you are just making random parts of the codex 'Better' without addressing core problems. In this instance, Deff Dreads are going to suck no matter how many attacks they get base, because they're too fragile to make it into combat to begin with, and the Dreads from other codices have higher Initiative, letting them tear the Dread apart before it gets to attack.

Killa kans (3 attacks base) 35

35ppm is good, but Kans shouldn't have 3 attacks. They're Grots. They shouldn't be good at fighting. (That being said, S7 AP2 really, really sucks. Making it at least S8 would be a big benefit.)

Gorkanaut (6hp superheavy walker gains effigy rule from stompa) 270
Morkanaut (6 HP superheavy walker gains effigy rule from stompa) 260

Why? People already don't take Gorkanauts because their damage output is terrible and they can't really do much. At this point, they'll be the same, they'll just also project a Fearless bubble - Not worth dumping 300 points into.

Stompa 760

What's the point here? A ten point discount is not going to make a 770pt model go from 'Pretty useless' to 'Useable'.
Big mek stompa 785

This is a 'Better' discount, but since Big Mek Stompas are far better than regular Stompas to begin with, before any of your fixes, making them cheaper at a rate far higher than you made Stompas cheaper is just going to make the balance gap even bigger.



All in all, it's the same problem throughout. Your fixes don't seem to have rhyme or reason, and they don't seem to take into account the other fixes that you've already made, which means that they ultimately come in really imbalanced. Things that were already useless are mostly still pretty useless, things that were already good just got better, and while you did make a few things go from bad to good (Biker Nobz, specifically,) you did it by undercosting them by a country mile.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I added extra points to the bikes above what other books pay for them and added the points for eavy armor as well. The bikes for warboss etc are still way .Ore expensive than what marines of all types pay for theirs.

Striking scorpion exarchs pay 30 points for not only an at initiative power claw, but their initiative is 6 and they get an extra attack in melee AND an extra shot with their ranged weapon. Powerklaws are specialist weapons, just like power fists. Also, a power klaw warboss is strength 9 with my general houserules.

The cumulative bonus to boss poles allows things like nob units and flash hits to guarantee they get the result they want. Meaning int the points spent on them aren't a total waste.

I made base nobs cheaper because a nob isn't worth more than two boys in any way shape or form. The boyz trade two attacks, immunity to instant death, and double the amount of shooting for +1 init and strength. If they were the same 12 points I would still call it a loss. Considering a 24 points job on a bike is still significantly more expensive than a marine on a bike it is the that big of a deal.

For all of the flyers and the buggie, remember that their twin linked weapons are now basically+1 to strength and now this can threaten more things on the table.

Do the cans and dread, they now have a speed of 9" and are now able to get into melee easier with the dread due to "'ere we go!". A deffdread now has 6 attacks base, 7 on the charge. The enemy had better hope they kill it before it gets into melee!

The grot isn't making attacks, it is flailing wildly (hence the low weapon skill) increasing the strength on the claw changes the role to be too similar to dreads, now the main are mobile melee threats who specialise in taking down elite melee units like terminators and carnifex.

The change for the mork/gorkanaught lets them move 12", count as assault vehicles, gain smash and stomp, gain an extra hullpoint, become immune to explosions, AND fire their disparate weapons at different targets allowing the to not waste half of their shooting in every time they fire. Being still under 300 points does a lot to make them more viable.

The stompa mostly gains its benefits from the core rule changes, so being an assault vehicle for 20 models and only taking a max of d3+3 hullpoints from strength D. The slight bonus to damage from twin linked weapons is just icing g on the cake.

So no, my fixes aren't random nor do they not make sense in lieu of the other changes I've made. For some reason you treated the ork changes as being totally separate from the core rule changes...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/27 01:57:16


   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I added extra points to the bikes above what other books pay for them and added the points for eavy armor as well. The bikes for warboss etc are still way .Ore expensive than what marines of all types pay for theirs.

Not a fair comparison. Space Marine characters pay 20pts for bikes, and all they get is a twin-linked Boltgun and the standard Bike abilities. Orks, on the other hand, get a Twin-Linked Dakkagun (better), a better armor save (Worth 5pts,) and they get an improved Jink along with the standard bike abilities. Orks get more out of their bikes than other armies. Meanwhile, if we're comparing something like a Command squad, who get bikes for 7ppm, you have to keep in mind that putting a bike on a 2w model is a lot more advantageous than on a 1w model, on top of the other benefits that Warbikes give.

Striking scorpion exarchs pay 30 points for not only an at initiative power claw, but their initiative is 6 and they get an extra attack in melee AND an extra shot with their ranged weapon. Powerklaws are specialist weapons, just like power fists. Also, a power klaw warboss is strength 9 with my general houserules.

False comparison. First off, the obvious: Striking Scorpions are NOT ORKS. They are only S3 base, they only get 2 attacks (3 with 2ccw), and they can only be taken once per squad of five - Nobz and Meganobz can bring a Power Klaw on every model. He's also the only model than can take a Scorpion Claw - You can't give it to HQs, you can't give it to any special or better models. It's locked in on the Striking Scorpion Exarch.
And while it's true that the Warboss would only be S9 base, he's still S10 on the charge thanks to Furious Charge.

The cumulative bonus to boss poles allows things like nob units and flash hits to guarantee they get the result they want. Meaning int the points spent on them aren't a total waste.

Yeah, but there's no precedent for it unless you want to change how every standard and banner in the game works for it, and generally having stacking banners doesn't really make sense and isn't fluffy. Also, you can achieve the same result for Ork Boy squads if you have an attached Warboss and Painboy, which isn't uncommon at all.

I made base nobs cheaper because a nob isn't worth more than two boys in any way shape or form. The boyz trade two attacks, immunity to instant death, and double the amount of shooting for +1 init and strength. If they were the same 12 points I would still call it a loss. Considering a 24 points job on a bike is still significantly more expensive than a marine on a bike it is the that big of a deal.

Yes, a Nob IS worth two boys in many ways, shapes, and forms. First off, any upgrade you buy is going to be twice as efficient. (4ppm 'Eavy Armor is twice as good on a 2w model as it is a 1w model.) Also, you're not mentioning a lot of benefits that the nob has: Not as vulnerable to Template weapons, fits better in vehicles, takes up less space on the board. Access to special gear, etc. When you start packing more punch into a smaller space, the cost and efficiency rises exponentially.

For all of the flyers and the buggie, remember that their twin linked weapons are now basically+1 to strength and now this can threaten more things on the table.

Okay, sure, that's fine, but the cost change is still effectively meaningless. The problem was never the damage output, it was the fact that all the Ork fliers go down like paper planes against a water pistol. (This problem is exacerbated by the fact that most AA is twin-linked, and will therefore shred the Ork fliers even faster.)

Do the cans and dread, they now have a speed of 9" and are now able to get into melee easier with the dread due to "'ere we go!". A deffdread now has 6 attacks base, 7 on the charge. The enemy had better hope they kill it before it gets into melee!

The increased speed is nice, but it's not part of the Ork buffs that I was commenting on. I was pointing out that the buffs presented weren't helpful. (And he's still going to get wrecked in combat against anyone who hits first. Plus, since you made Twin-Linked weapons better, killing him before he gets to strike is going to be even easier.)

The grot isn't making attacks, it is flailing wildly (hence the low weapon skill) increasing the strength on the claw changes the role to be too similar to dreads, now the main are mobile melee threats who specialise in taking down elite melee units like terminators and carnifex.

Grots are already WS2 before they get crammed into the Killa Kan. If they were really 'Flailing wildly' then their WS would be even lower, namely, it would be 1. And the fact of the matter is that they still suck at taking down elite Melee units because their low WS and mediocre strength means that they're hitting on 5s and wounding most of their targets on 3s. (They are best at popping tanks or dealing with noncombatants in melee, or at least they used to be until their Strength got lowered to the point of being useless.)

The change for the mork/gorkanaught lets them move 12", count as assault vehicles, gain smash and stomp, gain an extra hullpoint, become immune to explosions, AND fire their disparate weapons at different targets allowing the to not waste half of their shooting in every time they fire. Being still under 300 points does a lot to make them more viable.

An assault vehicle for 6 models? I guess you could stick a minimal squad of Meganobz in there, but only 6 models is kind of crummy. I'll admit making them faster is a consequence I didn't consider, but they still have no real damage output (even with splitfire) and pretty mediocre armor, and since you made a lot of shooting considerably stronger (Especially stuff in the anti-infantry vein that was S6/7 and is now effectively S7/8,) the extra durability isn't going to go very far.

The stompa mostly gains its benefits from the core rule changes, so being an assault vehicle for 20 models and only taking a max of d3+3 hullpoints from strength D. The slight bonus to damage from twin linked weapons is just icing g on the cake.

This is fair, but only if you also increase the cost of every other super-heavy, since every super-heavy gets the same buffs.
Also: Stompas don't suck because D-strength weapons can blow them up in one hit, they suck because their crummy armor makes them really vulnerable to standard, run-of-the-mill shooting, and their own damage isn't worth the expense. A Command Squad with meltaguns in a drop pod isn't that far-fetched for an anti-tank unit, and it'll half-kill a Stompa in a single turn of shooting.
Also also: You DO KNOW that Stompas don't have any twin-linked Weapons besides a couple of Big Shootas, right?


So no, my fixes aren't random nor do they not make sense in lieu of the other changes I've made. For some reason you treated the ork changes as being totally separate from the core rule changes...

I'm not treating them as separate. I'm saying that the Ork Changes themselves are either overpowered or useless. Yeah, sure, some of your 'Core' changes would make things better, but the Ork changes aren't helpful whether or not the Ork changes are applied.

And when I say that they're 'Random' I mean that you're fixing some things that don't need to be fixed be fixed while ignoring other things that desperately need correction. You're making the Power Klaw vastly better, when it was already a pretty great weapon that needed no fixes, but then you're making a bunch of things slightly cheaper, but not addressing their core problems, and you're still ignoring massive chunks of the Ork codex that need a lot more help than any of what you're 'Fixing'.
For example: Yeah, it's annoying that Trukks lost the old version of the 'Ramshackle' special rule, but people still use Trukks a lot anyways because Trukks are still great. Despite this, you list a fix for Trukks, but you don't list a fix to the dozens of useless models in the Ork codex that actually need fixing. Weirdboyz don't get a mention. Neither do Big Meks, or the fact that Orks don't get an invuln, or the fact that Flashy Gitz are complete garbage, or any number of other problems. But hey, you gave Stompas a 1% discount.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/27 08:13:47


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The idea that av13/13/12 is weak is pretty rediculous. The biggest reason the big naughts are weak in the current iteration is they can be exploded easily and their weapons all favor different targets. Now they act like cheaper but better armored imperial knights. Fire bigger guns at bigger targets, fire little guns at a unit you want to charge, crump charged unit with strength 10 and stomp. If something gets close enough to threaten swarming you, send out the little squad inside and destroy them.

The reason for the comparison between exarchs and nobs is that with the rules change that exarchs is str7. (Also, striking scorpions are strength 4 ap6 due to their stock weaponry). It also gives him the same number of attacks as the nob with power claw with significantly more shooting ability, better chance to hit, and if they were in a challenge the exarch would have an additional 3 attacks. So making something more prevalent in one army but making it slightly worse than what is available to another is pretty even.

The Killa kans only hit on 5 against weapon skill 5+, so most melee focused units are still ws4 and therefore their attacks would still be dangerous. Since T5 is the standard toughness on most melee threats in the game (bikes, thunderwolves, etc.) They're wounding on 2. 3 attacks @ ws2 will kill maybe two marines in melee on the charge. That doesn't seem out of line for a generalist walker that hits at I2 and can actually have to make morale tests...

What bonus does a 2 wound model have on a bike compared to one when they are still killed instantly by strength 8? The dakkadakka guns are stronger to make up for the rack they still won't hit as often due to poor ballistic skill and I added the bonus points to 4+ armor to begin with. Thenook at the fact that they are still more points than wolfguard on a bike while having very similar defense and damage capability.

Ork flyers have always been derided as too expensive for what they did, and not being able to do enough damage. Now they do more damage AND are slightly cheaper. So, if A.A. is a problem, use more of the flyers. You can field wings of them now.

As for weirdboyz, what fix would you suggest? Did you look at the formation in the M.F.D. they can take? I also have never seen anyone complain about big meks, but if you are referring to their lack of WAAAGH! Then again, I refer you to the MFD to check out the command benefits listed there.

Flash gits all come stock with banners, no other army has that. Every nob can take a banner, no other army can do so. So if this army has an option that no other army in the game has, why should I treat that option the same as every similar option in other books? If you want to spend a decent chunk of points to make nobz practically fearless, then that seems cool to me.


   
 
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