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Prior to the returns of Magnus and the Wolfkin, were the Space Wolves at Chapter strength or Legion strength or somewhere between? Do we know where things stand a hundred years on?

What about non-superhuman warriors, was there any kind of PDF or was it all just hunter tribes and Asgardian tech-Knights?

The Space Wolves apparently have a group of mortal serfs called the Kaerls who protect their holdings and ships, so presumably they're also responsible for Fenris when the Wolves can't be bothered. I doubt Fenris has it's own PDF. Come to think of it, I think Macragge is the only Space Marine Homeworld that has a standing force of it's own, all other worlds probably rely on the space marines there for protection.

As for technologies, I read that the Iron Masters were the highest tech on the planet, and they're only at the iron age. So I assume they're still banging sticks and rocks together elsewhere.

As for the strength of the Space Wolves prior to Warzone Fenris, it's unknown. Space Wolves are organized into Great Companies, which can range from 200-500 warriors each. Presumably there are 12 active great companies (with the lost 13th having a ceremonial place) but each one basically functions autonomously like a successor chapter (unlike the Companies of other space marine chapters). The thing is they're rarely at max strength and no one really bothers to keep a head count. Compounding matters is that squads are never reinforced so you really just gotta count them one by one.

The ballpark figure would be anywhere from "around a full strength chapter" to "small legion size".

I don't think any space wolf Great Company had 500 men. I believe I read that Ragnar's company was the second largest and it only had about 180 men. Logans was the biggest, with I think about 220 men. I would have to double check to be sure though.

Somewhere between. That much is certain.

Before any events in Warzone Fenris I'd put them at just over two thousand.
The Space Wolves have always struggled with recruitment, the whole geneseed being tied to a tribal death-planet thing is a big drag.

"Legion size" is a totally meaningless word because each legion was differant in size. the Salamnaders at only 7 companies in size COULD be said to in fact be "legion sized"

the space wolves are well... space wolf sized. they're bigger then a conventional chapter yes, but even the most generous estimate of their numbers palces them as being about 2600 marines strong

So, several thousand. At least.

Who knows when it comes to Space Wolves?

Before the Primaris Marine donation I'd put the Wolves somewhere between five and eight hundred and that's including the Wulfen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RedCommander wrote:
So, several thousand. At least.

Who knows when it comes to Space Wolves?

Funny thing is Wolf-kin is a pretty vague issue.
You could almost count half of Bran Redmaw's company as wolf-kin.

RedCommander wrote:
So, several thousand. At least.

Who knows when it comes to Space Wolves?

well thats the thing we DO know, pre-Primaris Marines the space wolves had an "upper limit" of 2.5 thousand. and a more REALISTIC number of about 2000.

mkaing them basicly a "double strength chapter" powerful but not exactly the "massive army" some people like to envision

BrianDavion wrote:

RedCommander wrote:
So, several thousand. At least.

Who knows when it comes to Space Wolves?

well thats the thing we DO know, pre-Primaris Marines the space wolves had an "upper limit" of 2.5 thousand. and a more REALISTIC number of about 2000.

mkaing them basicly a "double strength chapter" powerful but not exactly the "massive army" some people like to envision

What makes the Wolves powerful is their space presence, other chapters have divvied their legion rescource up to successor chapters and spread it to the stars, the Wolves have lost a few ships to stupid- I mean ramming tactics but they have an operational fleet that would put most marine forces to shame.

Fitting for a vikingish-themed force that they're actually a maritime power

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

RedCommander wrote:
So, several thousand. At least.

Who knows when it comes to Space Wolves?

well thats the thing we DO know, pre-Primaris Marines the space wolves had an "upper limit" of 2.5 thousand. and a more REALISTIC number of about 2000.

mkaing them basicly a "double strength chapter" powerful but not exactly the "massive army" some people like to envision

What makes the Wolves powerful is their space presence, other chapters have divvied their legion rescource up to successor chapters and spread it to the stars, the Wolves have lost a few ships to stupid- I mean ramming tactics but they have an operational fleet that would put most marine forces to shame.

ohh defiantly the space wolf fleet was (well proably was as I belive Magnus wrecked it pretty hard core) insanely powerful. although I do find myself wondering how they could possiably have maintained a fleet that size. I suspect they likely had some sort of pact with a Imperial Navy base. "let us use your facilities and in return we will aide you when called" as there is a lot of evidance most space marine chapters tend to have net works of alliances etc like that. ESPECIALLY the 1st founders

I read that Fenris and the surrounding planets provide much of the crew to the ships, as they feel serving the Space Wolves to be an honor (plus being off the icecube of a planet probably helps).

Also I do remember that the Space Wolves have connections with certain Navigator houses, which is a huge boon since they're needed for large fleets.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I read that Fenris and the surrounding planets provide much of the crew to the ships, as they feel serving the Space Wolves to be an honor (plus being off the icecube of a planet probably helps).

Also I do remember that the Space Wolves have connections with certain Navigator houses, which is a huge boon since they're needed for large fleets.

One house. A 10k year old plus loyalty.
They looked after each other interests and the wolf blade even act as guards for the navigators.

Its more than most chapters links.

Also Yeah. First founding are very connected and have a lot of very old links to very powerful people.

 jhe90 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I read that Fenris and the surrounding planets provide much of the crew to the ships, as they feel serving the Space Wolves to be an honor (plus being off the icecube of a planet probably helps).

Also I do remember that the Space Wolves have connections with certain Navigator houses, which is a huge boon since they're needed for large fleets.

One house. A 10k year old plus loyalty.
They looked after each other interests and the wolf blade even act as guards for the navigators.

Its more than most chapters links.

Also Yeah. First founding are very connected and have a lot of very old links to very powerful people.

Thought the Wolfblade worked bodyguard for nobles on Terra?

Nope. It's for a navigator house.

I think most chapters have to have at least a few thousand serfs/pages/whatever who would probably be armed and trained to decent Guard standard when their fortress-monastery comes under attack. No matter how boss Astartes are, 1000 men is a 1000 men (or 2500 in this case), no way they're wasting the Emperor's finest manning AA batteries etc.

I'd be curious about their servitor strength.
Failed Aspirants get turned into servitors and while the Wolves have a wonderfully high failure rate a good number of those failures are due to turning Wulfen, but they don't really mention anything about Wulfen being turned into Servitors.
Maybe I'm focusing on something that's really supposed to be irrelevant.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'd be curious about their servitor strength.
Failed Aspirants get turned into servitors and while the Wolves have a wonderfully high failure rate a good number of those failures are due to turning Wulfen, but they don't really mention anything about Wulfen being turned into Servitors.
Maybe I'm focusing on something that's really supposed to be irrelevant.

I imagine that failed aspirants aren't the only source of servitors for a space marine chapter. I mean if the space wolves needed servitors they could show up over just about ANY world in the IoM, Vox the governer saying they needed some, and he'd likely offer them their pick of anyone from the prisons, if they wheren't good eneugh he'd order his PDF to start rounding people up etc. Hell you'd proably see people VOLENTEERING for it.

Hmm maybe.
The Space Wolves are a bit hated in a few worlds, they look kind of intimidating to boot, I was going to say Chaos-ish but the average Government knowing about Chaos is kind of questionable.
I wonder if the IoM Space Marines have some kind of I'm a loyalist Space Marine so ALL your arguments are invalid type process.

Well, they do have the authority to launch Exterminatus, that sort of power's going to have psychological effects, especially wielding it for literally centuries whilst outliving countless untermensch acquaintances and cleaning up the messes made when they fail to maintain compliance. Frankly I'm surprised there's so few renegades

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I read that Fenris and the surrounding planets provide much of the crew to the ships, as they feel serving the Space Wolves to be an honor (plus being off the icecube of a planet probably helps).

Also I do remember that the Space Wolves have connections with certain Navigator houses, which is a huge boon since they're needed for large fleets.

One house. A 10k year old plus loyalty.
They looked after each other interests and the wolf blade even act as guards for the navigators.

Its more than most chapters links.

Also Yeah. First founding are very connected and have a lot of very old links to very powerful people.

Thought the Wolfblade worked bodyguard for nobles on Terra?[/quote
Navigator house. Belarious or something like that.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Hmm maybe.
The Space Wolves are a bit hated in a few worlds, they look kind of intimidating to boot, I was going to say Chaos-ish but the average Government knowing about Chaos is kind of questionable.
I wonder if the IoM Space Marines have some kind of I'm a loyalist Space Marine so ALL your arguments are invalid type process.

Yes, its called existing.

The moment that springs to my mind is the Dawn of War 2 novelisation, by Chris Roberson

The governor of Meridian is basically having a rant because the tiny task force of Blood Ravens that show up send all the full Astartes out doing stuff, and leave Scout Sergeant Cyrus and his 5 scouts to patrol the city and bodyguard the uppity governor. He says something along the lines of "I asked for Space Marines, not scouts."

To which Cyrus replies "These are Neophytes of the Blood Ravens chapter, show them due respect. They're good enough because I say so."



While a governor would technically have more authority that a Space Marine, many are too dumb, stupid and incompentant to actually effectively do anything, so when the Astartes arrive and start getting gak done, they either step aside and wring their hands, or start bitching (and usually turn out to be dirty Xenos sympathisers or filhy Heretics). The ones that actually have a clue as to how things work at the ones who are military trained or actual competant leaders. They greet the Astartes commander (usually with the Marine noting the governor's unusual competance and a bit of mutual respect passes between them), give a report, step aside and let the Marines do their job, taking orders from superior military minds and assisting where they can.


But back to the original bit, yes, there is such a button. Its goes like this:

"See this badge *pointing to various chapter symbol, bonus if they are famous a la Ultramarines or White Scars*? This is a do whatever I want and get away with it badge."

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I doubt Fenris has it's own PDF. Come to think of it, I think Macragge is the only Space Marine Homeworld that has a standing force of it's own, all other worlds probably rely on the space marines there for protection.

It all depends on what sort of homeworld it is and whether the Chapter rules it or not.

The UM get away with quite a lot on the "mortal manpower" front because they're one of the original legions and ruled Ultramar even before the Heresy. And they still use the formal technicalities available to them. Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, only commands the Chapter and the Chapter Fleet. His persona of Governor Macragge handles the planetary stuff with PDF, IG gift regiments etc. So technically the UM don't have a PDF...

Other Chapters that rule their homeworlds seldom have such a rich and populous world to recruit from. Many original legions rule(d) nasty places like Fenris or Baal, and later foundings are IIRC usually also given death worlds or low-tech backwaters if they're given a world at all instead of a fleet. This serves two purposes - marines often think savages etc make for the best recruits, and a world with relatively few people or resources makes it that much harder for the Chapter Master to get ideas above his standing. The Chapter is most certainly responsible for the defense here, though the natives might be violent to outsiders anyway.

Some Chapters don't rule worlds at all. Most famous probably the Imperial Fists who have recruitment rights on several worlds including Terra (their homeworld) and Necromunda. There is no need for them to defend such places though they might lend a hand if necessary.

But all will have some sort of serfs to carry out the tasks of maintaining their holdings (and sometimes fight in defense of them). Chapter serfs are often ranked quite high when it comes to combat skills and gear, not perhaps a surprise if the marines train them to some sort of acceptable level.

It was always my understanding that you can pretty much get away with murder when it comes to flaunting the division of military forces implemented by Guilliman.

The fluff is literally filled with examples of where Space Marine Chapters have significant auxilia and fleet forces under their command with negligible pushback.

People will cite the Badab war as what happens when you start flaunting the rules with regards Space Marines claiming dominion over mortal forces and approaching a workable army by themselves. However, Huron got away with that for a long time without anyone making a peep.

His principle and only mistake was withholding the tithe. It was only after he refused to cough up his share that the wrath of the Imperium descended upon him.

The Imperium has all of these rules and regulations that are in place on the surface, but because it's a hypocritical bureaucratic nightmare very few of them actually are upheld.

Basically the only rules in the Imperium are:

1. Worship the Emperor
2. Don't cavort with xenos or traitors
3. Pay your damn tithe

Apart from that, you're basically free to do whatever the hell you like so long as you don't tread on anyone important's feet...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
IPeople will cite the Badab war as what happens when you start flaunting the rules with regards Space Marines claiming dominion over mortal forces and approaching a workable army by themselves. However, Huron got away with that for a long time without anyone making a peep. His principle and only mistake was withholding the tithe.

Nah, when the tithe was coming to bite him in the butt he had already caused a lot of other trouble. He'd been claiming all other sorts of tithe from the worlds under his protection, and just stopped sending basically everything the IoM expected to get from his sector. Imperial Guard regiments, IG equipment, raw materials for the AdMech. You name a tax category he was supposed to provide, he didn't. The geneseed tithe wasn't even mentioned when Imperial forces started looking into why the Merchant Charter operating in Huron's territory didn't bring in the stuff they were supposed to.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
IPeople will cite the Badab war as what happens when you start flaunting the rules with regards Space Marines claiming dominion over mortal forces and approaching a workable army by themselves. However, Huron got away with that for a long time without anyone making a peep. His principle and only mistake was withholding the tithe.

Nah, when the tithe was coming to bite him in the butt he had already caused a lot of other trouble. He'd been claiming all other sorts of tithe from the worlds under his protection, and just stopped sending basically everything the IoM expected to get from his sector. Imperial Guard regiments, IG equipment, raw materials for the AdMech. You name a tax category he was supposed to provide, he didn't. The geneseed tithe wasn't even mentioned when Imperial forces started looking into why the Merchant Charter operating in Huron's territory didn't bring in the stuff they were supposed to.

True, but all of that trouble all centres around not paying your taxes rather than breaking any other rules. It was the fact that he was causing people not to pay their that actually brought a sanction against him.

Do what you want. Just worship the emperor and pay your taxes

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
True, but all of that trouble all centres around not paying your taxes rather than breaking any other rules. It was the fact that he was causing people not to pay their that actually brought a sanction against him.

Ah, of course. I just read your "tithe" and "space marine" and assumed you meant their customary Geneseed Tithe to Mars (which he also withheld). But you didn't actually say that. My bad.

Not paying taxes, whatever that might be, is indeed the first and biggest thing that will get you in trouble with the IoM. Dealing with xenos above your pay grade or not worshipping the Emperor is a distant concern compared to the tax office.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Hmm maybe.
The Space Wolves are a bit hated in a few worlds, they look kind of intimidating to boot, I was going to say Chaos-ish but the average Government knowing about Chaos is kind of questionable.
I wonder if the IoM Space Marines have some kind of I'm a loyalist Space Marine so ALL your arguments are invalid type process.

Yes, its called existing.

The moment that springs to my mind is the Dawn of War 2 novelisation, by Chris Roberson

The governor of Meridian is basically having a rant because the tiny task force of Blood Ravens that show up send all the full Astartes out doing stuff, and leave Scout Sergeant Cyrus and his 5 scouts to patrol the city and bodyguard the uppity governor. He says something along the lines of "I asked for Space Marines, not scouts."

To which Cyrus replies "These are Neophytes of the Blood Ravens chapter, show them due respect. They're good enough because I say so."

Funny thing is most Space Marines would probably respond to that comment with something along the lines of "Blood Ravens? Only good for thieving you mongrels."
Wonder what a Commisar's response would be?

While a governor would technically have more authority that a Space Marine, many are too dumb, stupid and incompentant to actually effectively do anything, so when the Astartes arrive and start getting gak done, they either step aside and wring their hands, or start bitching (and usually turn out to be dirty Xenos sympathisers or filhy Heretics). The ones that actually have a clue as to how things work at the ones who are military trained or actual competant leaders. They greet the Astartes commander (usually with the Marine noting the governor's unusual competance and a bit of mutual respect passes between them), give a report, step aside and let the Marines do their job, taking orders from superior military minds and assisting where they can.


But back to the original bit, yes, there is such a button. Its goes like this:

"See this badge *pointing to various chapter symbol, bonus if they are famous a la Ultramarines or White Scars*? This is a do whatever I want and get away with it badge."

Well, I guess it's unlikely that people will expect them to be Chaos Marines given the lack of information on Chaos Marines in general. That brings up the question of Chaos Marines dropping in on a planet and doing the same thing - with bloody emphasis.

The novel Umbra Samus goes into some detail about the behind the scenes operations of a chapter. It shows that even a chapter down to ~600 marines, with a fairly anemic fleet, still maintained close to 100,000 chapter serfs that served either within their fortress monastery, on their ships, or at their outposts. These serfs were drawn from all of the worlds in the Phobian System, not just their homeworld..

So a well supported, first-founding chapter could easily have a quarter of a million chapter serfs when all accounted for.