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With the release of The Old World today, Mantic has (yet again) "poked fun" at GW in te for of some "competitive marketing":

Like this video showing Mantic products while playing "A Whole New World"
I also recall Mantic advertising Kings of War as "available right now" when The Old World was announced.

How do you perceive this?
As a fed up with GW KoW player, it gets a chuckle from me. That's effectively singing to the choir though.

Started off almost as strong as they could with the Idol of Shobik and slasha or whatever the greenskin is but then they went and showed that nightstalker... thing...

Honestly you could tell me a rival company (to Mantic) made this video and I'd almost believe you except that it doesn't include the 'new' Empire of Dust wyrm things, those blobby twilight kin shields, or that abysmal blaster-master demon guy.

That's the problem with these things, you have to be able to back it up when you're trying to be cute. Para Bellum could arguably do it. Mantic... eh.

An aside on Para Bellum:


But the true problem with this, for me, is... what's even the joke here? Mantic's world has been around for a long time now. What's new? Besides the fact they couldn't think of anything but the opposite of 'old'? Idol of Shobik released in 2022. Shadowhulk 2019. When was the slasha released? How new is any of this stuff? At least Old World is accurately labeled for the age of the models. Har har.

Embarrassing all around. Fails at being cute. Fails at showing off superior products. Other companies do this sort of thing way better than Mantic ever has, yet they keep doing it.

As a fed up with GW KoW player, it gets a chuckle from me. That's effectively singing to the choir though.

Really says it all. Exact group they're catering to. Is there a punch line in there that makes sense to you or is it just the "GW bad" sentiment?

Mantic can poke fun all they want.

Pretty sure they'd love to have the problem of selling out of their product launches.

Mantic acts like its a much cooler company than they really are, IMO.

A friend asked me yesterday about mantic yesterday due to his potential interest in the Halo game, this was my response:


"They're just kind of a meh company IMO. mediocre rules, mediocre minis. They want to be GW by copying and competing with GW. Their main product lines are knock-off whfb, knock off 40k, knock off necromunda, knock off man o War (though to be fair gw hasn't brought that one back yet so can't blame them for filling a hole in the market), and after gw announced legions imperialis they suddenly announced their own knock-off epic ruleset.

Their aesthetic design is also generally just kinda lacking, like their gak just doesn't really look cool for the most part, it's just kinda meh. They have no real vision, they're basically old ex-GW guys that think modern GW has lost its way and the pinnacle of miniature gaming was late 80s/90s era GW products. A lot of their stuff is trying to imitate that aesthetic and style but modernized so it doesnt just look like the sculptors have no skill, but it's really just kinda meh."

With that in mind - when mantic posts their cute little shots at GW I can't help but feel that they're showing that GW lives rent free in their heads and they have a massive inferiority complex about it. They don't produce a better product. Good for them that they are proud of what they make, but if it was any good it cpukd and would speak for itself, they wouldn't need to try so hard to get clout.

It always seems like an “own goal” on their part. 82 likes and 7 comments in OP’s youtube short from how many hours ago? I’m sure their client base gets a hearty chuckle out of it, but it always reeks of desperation and seems like clear examples of “the crowd goes mild”.

If they truly felt so confident in their product to the point where they felt it could poach some sales from their competitor*, they’d have had “counter programming” on TOW pre-order weekend. Mantics site has “ambush” box sets (I guess some new way to play KoW?) in their pre-order section and those mini’s aren’t very flattering even against decades old Brettonian sculpts. If they had something amazing in the works, this weekend would’ve been the time for it. How many years did they have to prepare?

GW will probably sell more kits that were made pre-2008 (Mantics first year) these next 2 weeks than KoW kits will sell for the entire rest of year.

*I personally don’t think they should look at GW as a competitor. They are playing in different leagues, now more than ever. Meanwhile Conquest is like 1/3rd the age of KoW and its eating Mantics lunch while they poke fun at GW.

I generally find it amusing. I also don’t think it really makes them look bad for leaning into their reputation as the Private Select Kirkland Signature version of GW games, or not any worse. Lots of miniature companies sell to GW players as the affordable alternative without ever even becoming that notable.

I tend to smile and eyeroll at the same time. Mantic does some stuff pretty well, but then makes design choices in other places that really don't work for me.

Especially in weapon and armour design, their stuff is very computer gamey, fantasy designed by fantasy fans who don't know much about actual armour or weapons. It's fine, whatever, but it's not my preferred aesthetic.

But some of their stuff is great - I prefer their warboss on wyvern to the GW versions, and I think their Pheonix is really good. Mantic Ogres have a cool look, and I think it works as a range. Their undead when they came out were really good, they haven't changed them at all though and nowadays there are better options if you want cheap plastic undead.

But then you've got stuff like their Elves, where I can't work out what the armour they are wearing is supposed to be or how it's supposed to work, or the Veer-myn which really just look kinda bad.

I think it would be classier to ignore GW and just do their own thing.

Eh Mantic aren't alone, Warcradle poked fun at the Ketchup Epic marketing ad with their own with mustard.





Personally I've always felt that Mantic have cool ideas, but their designs are very much 80-early90s in style; or "cheap toy" style. I do somewhat get a feeling that they "matured" a bit here and there and some of the newer stuff is starting to look interesting and shed some of the design and scale choices of the early. However every time I look at most of their armies I'm left with a feeling of "I like that concept, that's really cool but only a couple of the models spark joy and the others are negative joy"

And its not the "this might look better in real life" but the "nope just don't like that"


Eg their fairly new Nightstalkers army is actually looking pretty darn cool overall
https://www.manticgames.com/kings-of-war/nightstalkers/



Meanwhile if I look at their elf-cat army
https://www.manticgames.com/kings-of-war/basilean/

They have things like this


Which honestly just looks terrible by modern day dragon designs and modelling. It's right up there with the old GW serpentine dragons with insanely huge front claws (which I never liked).


I do wonder if Mantic ever stop expanding their army ranges and start updating existing models if they might well start to come around and have armies that really catch my eye

They have updated their Empire of Dust range. Not for the better in terms of look though. I have a couple hundred of the old skeletons and I think they look better than the new ones. Only thing better is that they are in plastic and not half plastic and half metal like their old skeletons. So its improved in material but not looks.

That Dragon.... looks like a cheap plastic toy someone glued a knight on top off.

They have amazing prices though. Their army deals are great and what we all wish GW would price things at. I bought 2 discounted Empire of Dust army deals and 2 discounted Empire of Dust mega forces (over 300 models total from those 4 boxes) for about the same total price the new TK box is at. Besides like 60 mummies in plastic the other 240+ models are either 50/50 metal/plastic or 100% metal.

Wow, wtf are they doing with that as a promotional image? That dragon is painted incredibly poorly for a professional display piece! One thick coat?!

I've got that dragon and it's a bit derpy, too chunky and the proportions aren't great. But I've used it as a D&D monster a few times and always had a good reaction from players. I'm a mediocre painter and my paintjob on that dragon is better than Mantic's promo image. They really need to do better than that!

 Da Boss wrote:
Wow, wtf are they doing with that as a promotional image? That dragon is painted incredibly poorly for a professional display piece! One thick coat?!

I've got that dragon and it's a bit derpy, too chunky and the proportions aren't great. But I've used it as a D&D monster a few times and always had a good reaction from players. I'm a mediocre painter and my paintjob on that dragon is better than Mantic's promo image. They really need to do better than that!

Honestly its "very" classic DnD style! On the right table with the right models alongside it, it would look very classic in that setting.

When I was getting into the hobby years ago the "sticking it to the man" aspect was very appealing to me as a person who had issues w/ GW, but its hard to take them seriously on this given how in workshops shadow they clearly are.

Rihgu wrote:
An aside on Para Bellum:

Spoiler:

In fact, the mostly innocuous ad that has run in the top corner of Dakkadakka for many years now, "rank and file is back", is an example of this done right. Sure, they're making a direct reference to the killing of WHFB, but it's vague enough that it doesn't feel like pandering to disgruntled GW gamers. It feels like it's enticing people to a style of game they might prefer to the skirmish stylings most other modern games follow. The Mantic equivalent would be like "tired of your square bases getting blowed up??? well OURS never did!"

Interesting. There seems to be some bias toward the company or game you already like.
Those top corner ads came across as presumptuous from me. There has been rank and flank all along, is several games, so declaring the return as if Conquest is the only one rang false for me.

Which raises the question of if either has actually gotten anyone into either game.

But the true problem with this, for me, is... what's even the joke here?

It's amusing because of the way they did it, it's not a punchline.
KoW would be new to someone trying it out instead of struggling to buy The Old World. Which is the message.

chaos0xomega wrote:
"They're just kind of a meh company IMO. mediocre rules, mediocre minis. They want to be GW by copying and competing with GW. Their main product lines are knock-off whfb, knock off 40k, knock off necromunda, knock off man o War (though to be fair gw hasn't brought that one back yet so can't blame them for filling a hole in the market), and after gw announced legions imperialis they suddenly announced their own knock-off epic ruleset.

Is that really your impression?
I'll just say that I don't think that's accurate.

nels1031 wrote:Meanwhile Conquest is like 1/3rd the age of KoW and its eating Mantics lunch...

I hadn't noticed.

 DarkBlack wrote:

Interesting. There seems to be some bias toward the company or game you already like.

That would be incorrect. Kings of War was a game that I already liked before they turned me off with these bad "ads".

 DarkBlack wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
"They're just kind of a meh company IMO. mediocre rules, mediocre minis. They want to be GW by copying and competing with GW. Their main product lines are knock-off whfb, knock off 40k, knock off necromunda, knock off man o War (though to be fair gw hasn't brought that one back yet so can't blame them for filling a hole in the market), and after gw announced legions imperialis they suddenly announced their own knock-off epic ruleset.

Is that really your impression?
I'll just say that I don't think that's accurate.

[

So you're a fan then? Lol

That's a lot of people's impression.

And agreed, parabellum is eating mantics lunch. I've seen a multiple more games of conquest being played in the past year than I have seen games of KOW in the past decade.

chaos0xomega wrote:

So you're a fan then?
That's a lot of people's impression.

Neither makes that impression more true.

And agreed, parabellum is eating mantics lunch. I've seen a multiple more games of conquest being played in the past year than I have seen games of KOW in the past decade.

That's not good way to tell.
The games anyone sees are very localised and biased toward their interests.
It's why everyone seens to think that their game is doing better than it actually is.

As an example: I have seen maybe two games of conquest, ever.
Which puts it on par with Runewars.

I like PB and think they're a great example of a company making enough good choices to thrive but "eating their lunch"?

Conquest still has the scale issue for me, the multibasing/2 games 1 system idea was a lovely marketing pitch that in practice makes the games troop blocks stagnant looking even if the mini qualities gotten better, and even though they've got a setting of their own that's got great ideas swirling some of those factions (dweghom) are uglier than most mantic releases..

Para Bellum is also a few rich dudes bankrolling their childhood dream, Mantic have to actually finance themselves. And both companies' flagship games were written by the same author and both are better than any version of WHFB (including the one also written by the same author )

chaos0xomega wrote:
And agreed, parabellum is eating mantics lunch. I've seen a multiple more games of conquest being played in the past year than I have seen games of KOW in the past decade.

When the Old World got canned for AoS, the USA WHF competitive circuit (bar one region) switched over to KoW. The tournament circuit in the US and UK are of significant size. There's significant big multi-day tournaments running in the US, like Lone Wolf, and a packed event calendar across the UK.

I don't believe for a second Conquest is anywhere near KoW.

EDIT: the terrible dragon is from the time before Mantic started using proper studios like Angel Giraldez to paint for their promo models.

I dunno that being GWs sloppy seconds is the power move you think it is. We'll see how much of that remains true a year from now when TOW has reclaimed the WHFB community.

Conquest is being picked up by a growing number of retailers, has a growing tournament presence, a rapidly growing social media presence, etc. Kings of War just... is. In the almost 15 yrs since KOW launched, I've never encountered a brick and Mortar that stocked it. In the 5+ years since Conquest launched, they gained a retail presence in most of the stores I've visited in the area. It may be larger still, but Conquest seems to be picking up fans and growing market share, whereas Mantic picked up the leftover community from GW and has coasted along for a decade without doing much with their position in the market.

Correct me if i'm wrong but hasn't miniature wargaming exploded in popularity (at least outside the uk) in the last 4-5 years?

If you look at the amount of things mantics put out the last three years it's quite a lot, which (to my understanding) ties pretty heavily in w/ this.

I also don't get calling mantic's rules mediocre at all? Even if a lot of their stuff is community written KOW is a really solid game, deadzone seems fun, firefight got magazine praise even if it isnt that pretty looking, and I can personally vouch for KOW armada being some of the most fun i've had with anything tabletop related

Armada isn't a mantic ruleset, it's a Warlord ruleset (Black Seas) they licensed and adapted for fantasy gaming.

It's my experience that shops don't carry a lot of Mantic stuff, I think their kickstarter cycle and the fact that a fair bit of their stuff just doesn't sell well has burned some retailers. Same with Privateer Press.

Almost all the mantic I've ever bought has been direct, now with Brexit I am hunting around the various German webstores trying to find stuff I want but the stock is patchy.

Tbf, quite a lot of the GW range is in the same situation these days, but the range is massive.

But rules wise, I think every store I've been in has stocked KoW rulebooks and as far as I can see it is fairly widely played here. I've been to a KoW event and it had a healthy attendance. I think it's a solid game, though there are always issues with certain units.

there are 2 stores I know (fantasywelt.de and s-games.at) that can get you everything and ship to most countries
not always all on stock of course but they also can get you the mantic direct items (or at least did order them if asked in the past)

It's the market. I find it funny.

Who wrote Mantic game's rules are usually worse that GW games has arguably never played a Mantic game - as rules are usually BETTER.
Sure GW models are usually better but Mantic is improving.

Retailers detest Mantic because they detest crowdfunding (for good reason, of course).

Para Bellum can expand aggressively by giving great terms and massive freebies to retailers and players because they're seasoned capitalists and are fine with making a loss as long as they grow market share.

Adding in to other reports of Mantic's popularity, I think there was an attempt by a lot of local WHFB players to switch over to KoW when The End Times happened, but I don't think there was a lot of enthusiasm in the long run. At least, I think that KoW is not widely played here right now. However, everybody, even old and disgruntled Fantasy fans, are now rushing in as fast as possible to rebase all of their armies, even those not consisting out of GW miniatures, to suit The Old World. "Dude, I have to, it's The Old World!".

 DarkBlack wrote:

nels1031 wrote:Meanwhile Conquest is like 1/3rd the age of KoW and its eating Mantics lunch...

I hadn't noticed.

 DarkBlack wrote:

And agreed, parabellum is eating mantics lunch. I've seen a multiple more games of conquest being played in the past year than I have seen games of KOW in the past decade.

That's not good way to tell.
The games anyone sees are very localised and biased toward their interests.
It's why everyone seens to think that their game is doing better than it actually is.

Grunk wrote:
I like PB and think they're a great example of a company making enough good choices to thrive but "eating their lunch"?

 Baragash wrote:

I don't believe for a second Conquest is anywhere near KoW.

My comments about Conquest “eating Mantic’s lunch” was just an anecdotal observation of Conquests growing space in the Rank and Flank wargame market.

For one example thats not totally anecdotal, just look at tourney attendance at a venue that I believe is one of the larger wargaming conventions in the world, Adepticon. I believe thats a good snapshot of a games respective popularity.

-Registered Attendance at what seem to be each respective game systems premier event at this convention for March 2024-

Conquest tourney: 41/60
A Song of Ice and Fire tourney : 32/64
KoW Adepticlash : 25/50

For the record, I don’t play KoW, Conquest or ASOIAF, but I hope they all succeed. I just think Mantic’s priorities are out of whack with these “joke posts”. Just focus on how to portray their own product in the best light and don’t even acknowledge other games exist.

If I were someone in Mantic leadership, I’d be more concerned about true peer competitors than GW, which is on a whole different level.

-Games Workshop’s various fantasy mass battle game tourney registration-

AoS : 143/150
Middle Earth : 90/90
A WFB/TOW event : 50/50 (Might be a WHFB 8th edition tourney?)

Can't lie with that data.

I know that KOW recently had the largest tournament in its history somewhere in the UK (IIRC), at something like 150 players. Haven't been able to find comparison for Conquest, didn't bother trying to find one for ASOIAF. I doubt Conquest has had an event that large, but its also a third of the age of KOW so I wouldn't expect Conquest to have a bigger turnout - if it did Mantic would have an even bigger problem on its hands.

chaos0xomega wrote:Conquest is being picked up by a growing number of retailers, has a growing tournament presence, a rapidly growing social media presence, etc. Kings of War just... is. In the almost 15 yrs since KOW launched, I've never encountered a brick and Mortar that stocked it. In the 5+ years since Conquest launched, they gained a retail presence in most of the stores I've visited in the area. It may be larger still, but Conquest seems to be picking up fans and growing market share, whereas Mantic picked up the leftover community from GW and has coasted along for a decade without doing much with their position in the market.

I think that has more to do with how much attention you've paid or to what you have paid attention.
I've seen KoW in game stores and can assure you that there are a significant number of KoW players who never played WHFB (myself included, I got fed up with GW playing AoS and 40k).
Tournaments are growing and Mantic's quality and quantity of releases has steadily improved.

SgtBANZAI wrote:However, everybody, even old and disgruntled Fantasy fans, are now rushing in as fast as possible to rebase all of their armies, even those not consisting out of GW miniatures, to suit The Old World. "Dude, I have to, it's The Old World!".

There are a lot of players crawling back.
Definitely not "everyone" though. There are no shortage of people who are just not interested.
It's been a long time and there are many players have moved on, found something they like better, gotten into fantasy wargaming after The End Times and/or are just that fed up with GW.