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9th Edition introduced Supreme Commanders. These are essentially the faction leaders of each faction and often have a detachment of their own.

Space Marines: Roboute Guilliman
Imperial Guard: Lord Macharius
Adeptus Mechanicus: Belisarius Cawl
Chaos Marines: Abaddon the Despoiler
World Eaters: Angron
Emperor's Children: Fulgrim
Death Guard: Mortarion
Thousand Sons: Magnus the Red
Necrons: Silent King
Orks: Ghazkhull Thraka
T'au: Commander Shadowsun

Who should the rest be?

Asdrubael Vect would obviously be the Supreme Commander of the Dark Eldar. He used to have a model and rules in previous editions, but he lacks one currently. I don't think the Craftworld Eldar have a unified individual to lead one. Tyranids would have The Swarmlord, but there's more than one. Genestealer Cults wouldn't really have one. Votann wouldn't have one unless their AI got some type of battlesuit to use. Sororitas leader is Saint Celestine, but she's a daemon who only appears for crucial moments. Knights lack a leader.

The rest?
None. I'd rather the game be about MY guys, not GW's.

Calbear wrote:
Sororitas leader is Saint Celestine

Morven Vahl. She's a High Lord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The rest?
None. I'd rather the game be about MY guys, not GW's.

THIS.

Which sucks because the next Crusade book has rules for making Epic Heroes even more epic.

Macharius, the former Lord Solar, died after his famous crusade.

Lord Solar Leontus is currently in command.

For the Officio Assassinorum you have the High Lord's of Terra

The Custodes have Captain General Valoran

 BorderCountess wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The rest?
None. I'd rather the game be about MY guys, not GW's.

THIS.

Which sucks because the next Crusade book has rules for making Epic Heroes even more epic.

Yeah, that is a mistake. Incorporating named characters in Crusade could be done- create a story-based trigger that allows a named character to be used for a limited number of games without being added to the roster- kinda like the way they handle Avatars. Epic characters could also create specific narrative paths for the armies they join, so if you pick Guilleman, you get access to his series of missions, etc.

But Epic Characters certainly should not be gaining battle honours or additional powers, and they should always be guests in armies rather than regular commanders.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The rest?
None. I'd rather the game be about MY guys, not GW's.

THIS.

Which sucks because the next Crusade book has rules for making Epic Heroes even more epic.

Yeah, that is a mistake. Incorporating named characters in Crusade could be done- create a story-based trigger that allows a named character to be used for a limited number of games without being added to the roster- kinda like the way they handle Avatars. Epic characters could also create specific narrative paths for the armies they join, so if you pick Guilleman, you get access to his series of missions, etc.

But Epic Characters certainly should not be gaining battle honours or additional powers, and they should always be guests in armies rather than regular commanders.

Wait, Crusade is adding Epic Hero support?
...
Why?

 JNAProductions wrote:
The rest?
None. I'd rather the game be about MY guys, not GW's.

This is how I prefer to play as well. But I don't see why the option shouldn't be available.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The rest?
None. I'd rather the game be about MY guys, not GW's.

This.

I already hate the focus on Special Characters.

Did anybody tell the Orks they have a supreme commander?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:


For the Officio Assassinorum you have the High Lord's of Terra

It would be hilarious to have e.g. the Master of the Administratum on the table as a leader for the Officio, but if something like that ever turns up, it will be a more boring one, i.e. the Grand Master of Assassins (who's also a High Lord, and at least there are a couple of historic precedents where they were actually involved in meaningful amounts of fighting).

 Da Boss wrote:
Did anybody tell the Orks they have a supreme commander?

Or Chaos undivided.
Abaddon only commands the Black Legion + whatever warbands etc choose to join him on the next Clack Crusade.

ccs wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Did anybody tell the Orks they have a supreme commander?

Or Chaos undivided.
Abaddon only commands the Black Legion + whatever warbands etc choose to join him on the next Clack Crusade.

Well, it's hinted that Ghazgkulls actions triggered waaaghs all over the galaxy, I don't think it's far fetched to see him as supreme commander. It doesn't mean he controls every ork, but many special characters are from his retinue and many waaaghbosses follow him. At least he's the most important char depicted in the codex.

Abaddon was able to unite the Chaos forces for his 13th crusade, even the Primarchs followed him. Yes, when Cadia ws destroyed everyone did what they wanted, but it's still resonable to have him as supreme commander within the CSM Codex now that the god specific primarchs have been outsourced and no other primarch is close.

It's tough for these factions to have supreme commanders because ruleswize they're not as splintered as the Imperium. Think about it, Morvenn Vahl or Guilliman are nothing more than Grukk, the Waaaghboss of the Red Waaagh if you'd put them within Ork hierarchy. But we don’t have a codex for different waaaghs or Klans. The actual supreme commander of the Imperium is the Emperor, and the other factions don't have that (Silent King and Vect probably are the closest as leaders of the whole faction?)

Who is the Supreme Commander of:

Leagues of Votann, Tyranids, and the Word Bearers?

Technically the Tyranids should be a Hive Tyrant since they are the general commanders of whole invasions of worlds. That's their core role.

Swarmlord being a named special version that's sort of more like an assassin leader* but would likely take the role of a supreme leader for GW' rules purposes

However I wouldn't put it past GW to give it to a Norn right now - they are almost akin to a Hive Tyrant +1. Heck I even entertain the notion that the kit started out as a Hive Tyrant update that was then changed to a new model entirely.

*even though he's kind of overshadowed by the new Norns in this edition. He also feels very squishy for his supposed role. Just not enough armour/health.

Even the Silent King is more a figurehead, ever since he destroyed the Command Codes.

Yes, there are many Phaerons and that which will follow his lead. But there are plenty still pretty unforgiving of him.

As for Tyranids? There is no leader. The Hive Mind is every Tyranid, akin to cells in a body. Staggeringly, incomprehensible vast, but ultimately still a single consciousness as we might understand it.

The Leagues don’t seem to have a single overlord. Each League will have its own Final Decision Maker, informed by the output of their Votann. But they’re still largely autonomous from one another.

Ghaz could be seen as a supreme commander of Orks. Or at least, The Potential Supreme Commander. Orks only respect strength, and Ghaz is yet to meet the rival that can best him. And some have even joined up entirely willingly, submitting to his ultimate authority, in the sure and certain knowledge he’ll get them to the best fights.

I’d also argue Chaos and The Imperium lack a single supreme authority. Abaddon has a lot of clout, yes. But nobody outside of the Black Legion is specifically beholden to him. He’s had the most success getting loads of Chaos Lads to pull in the same general direction, true. But he’s still not supreme.

As for The Imperium? That’s the High Lords of Terra. Technically The Emperor, yes, but he’s not exactly hands on, and his will is open to interpretation.

There are massive amounts of Orks who don't even know who Ghaz is, almost certainly orders of magnitude more than know his name or accept his authority. Orks having a supreme commander is like humans having a supreme commander. It doesn't make sense.

 Da Boss wrote:
There are massive amounts of Orks who don't even know who Ghaz is

Are there? Ghaz gets name-dropped in Da Big Dakka by an ork who doesn't have any obvious connection to him. I wouldn't be surprised if especially famous orks are somehow made known to your average ork via some Waagh weirdness or just through simple ork gossip and accidentally picking up fresh boyz from other groups when orks cross paths.

But yeah. Supreme Commanders often don't make sense (my Poisoned Tongue kabal certainly wouldn't be working with Vect if they could avoid it), and the concept itself is kind of pointless. "Supreme Commander" seems like it was either a concept from before they scrapped the grand alliance thing for 40k, or else just the vague concept of, "Here's an expensive centerpiece model," wrought into keyword form.

If they *had* to have a Supreme Commander, the craftworld one would probably be Asurmen given that he founded the path system that defines the nature of craftworlds.

Ghaz is likely name-dropped because he's the ONLY Big named ork for writers to name-drop. It's a symptom of the fact that once you leave Imperials the litany of known Xenos heroes is VERY limited.

When you get far fewer books its very hard to get multiple fan favourite characters to namedrop.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The rest?
None. I'd rather the game be about MY guys, not GW's.

THIS.

Which sucks because the next Crusade book has rules for making Epic Heroes even more epic.

Yeah, that is a mistake. Incorporating named characters in Crusade could be done- create a story-based trigger that allows a named character to be used for a limited number of games without being added to the roster- kinda like the way they handle Avatars. Epic characters could also create specific narrative paths for the armies they join, so if you pick Guilleman, you get access to his series of missions, etc.

But Epic Characters certainly should not be gaining battle honours or additional powers, and they should always be guests in armies rather than regular commanders.

Wait, Crusade is adding Epic Hero support?
...
Why?

I want to like it, but it's a matter of framing. If you think of "leveling up" as an essential part of Crusades, then named characters make less sense. But if you just enjoy the fluff of named characters and want them to feature in the story you're crafting, it makes sense to support them.

Telling the story of Jain Zar getting even stronger doesn't make much sense. Telling the story of how Jain Zar left an impact on an autarch or a banshee shrine while she joined them in the defense of a planet makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Ghaz is likely name-dropped because he's the ONLY Big named ork for writers to name-drop. It's a symptom of the fact that once you leave Imperials the litany of known Xenos heroes is VERY limited.

When you get far fewer books its very hard to get multiple fan favourite characters to namedrop.

Pretty sure Mad Dok Grotsnik and Zogwort get name dropped in the same book.

They really should be putting more respect on Nazdreg's name.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The rest?
None. I'd rather the game be about MY guys, not GW's.

This is how I prefer to play as well. But I don't see why the option shouldn't be available.

Same here.

In a recent crusade, I ran Morvenn Vahl to lead my Sisters of Battle, but with fluff stating she was a "counts-as" for the leader of my order. Everyone is free to do that if they like, especially now that subfactions (like Catachans, Order of Our Martyred Lady, etc.) are much looser or no longer have any meaning in army composition.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Even the Silent King is more a figurehead, ever since he destroyed the Command Codes.

Yes, there are many Phaerons and that which will follow his lead. But there are plenty still pretty unforgiving of him.

As for Tyranids? There is no leader. The Hive Mind is every Tyranid, akin to cells in a body. Staggeringly, incomprehensible vast, but ultimately still a single consciousness as we might understand it.

The Leagues don’t seem to have a single overlord. Each League will have its own Final Decision Maker, informed by the output of their Votann. But they’re still largely autonomous from one another.

Ghaz could be seen as a supreme commander of Orks. Or at least, The Potential Supreme Commander. Orks only respect strength, and Ghaz is yet to meet the rival that can best him. And some have even joined up entirely willingly, submitting to his ultimate authority, in the sure and certain knowledge he’ll get them to the best fights.

I’d also argue Chaos and The Imperium lack a single supreme authority. Abaddon has a lot of clout, yes. But nobody outside of the Black Legion is specifically beholden to him. He’s had the most success getting loads of Chaos Lads to pull in the same general direction, true. But he’s still not supreme.

As for The Imperium? That’s the High Lords of Terra. Technically The Emperor, yes, but he’s not exactly hands on, and his will is open to interpretation.

I'd add Drukhari to the mix. Vect calls himself overlord of Commorragh, but he's really just the leader of the strongest faction. Commorragh is splintered between multiple dimensions, with many areas that Vect has no control over (or dares not even venture into). Even in the areas where he does exert power, I think kabals and cults are largely independent, so long as they do not threaten the Kabal of the Black Heart. Vect certainly doesn't have the power to command other kabals to follow him on a campaign. If he wants followers outside his own kabal, he has to make alliances.

Re: Imperium: Right now I understand that Guilliman asks as a sort of regent, outranking even the High Lords of Terra. That being said, I cannot imagine he would ever lead an army that does not include a large personal guard of Ultramarines, so in-game it makes sense that he is not available to the Imperial Guard.

Re: Orks: Ghaz is undoubtedly the Ork with the biggest army, though he does not govern the Ork race, nor does he hold any form of institutional power. I'd say Chaos likely operates in a similar fashion. They just follow whoever promises them the most plunder or the best opportunity to prove themselves in battle, and that person can change easily from year to year as old leaders fall and new leaders emerge.



If we're talking about Supreme Commanders in game terms (as in, having a rule that they must be your warlord), I think such a rule makes sense even if the character in question does not truly have unquestioned control of their faction. Some of them, like Ghaz, are powerful enough that there is zero chance of them submitting to the authority of another. In other terms, Ghaz must be your warlord not because he controls all the Orks in the galaxy, but because wherever he goes, he will always the biggest, baddest Ork in a 100 lightyear radius. If Ghaz is there at all, then he's the boss.

.

 Wyldhunt wrote:


I want to like it, but it's a matter of framing. If you think of "leveling up" as an essential part of Crusades, then named characters make less sense. But if you just enjoy the fluff of named characters and want them to feature in the story you're crafting, it makes sense to support them.

Telling the story of Jain Zar getting even stronger doesn't make much sense. Telling the story of how Jain Zar left an impact on an autarch or a banshee shrine while she joined them in the defense of a planet makes sense.

Exactly. The way they handle Avatars is that they stay with you until your attempt to guide fate ends,,, which could be a fair number of games, depending on how you play it. A unit of Aspect warriors has to take a pair of battle scars, you have to pay the requisition cost, and the Avatar counts against your Crusade rating... But not your supply limit, because once the round of Guiding Fate is over (however long that takes), the Avatar goes away again.

So what I'd do with Phoenix Lords is make a 1 point requisition that allows a Phoenix Lord to join any army that includes a unit from their shrine for a single battle in which you are trying to overcome a threat that has advanced to level 3. This can only be done once per attempt to guide fate. Like Avatars, they'd count against your Crusade score, but not your supply limit. Unlike the Avatar, none of your units need to take a sacrificial scar; this represents the fact that a) a PL isn't as tough as an Avatar, b) it requires even more special circumstances before it can be used (level 3 threats only) and c) it only lasts for one game, where an Avatar could be with you for quite a few.

What happens if you don't use epic heroes in your force? Will you be required to wedge one in?

 Quixote wrote:
What happens if you don't use epic heroes in your force? Will you be required to wedge one in?

The epic heros in crusade is in the new book that was just leaked last week. I don’t we have all the information yet as it’s not even on pre-order.

—

I don’t mind having rules for them in crusade. i agree that they don’t really fit, but if people want to use them, they are kind of dead space in a roster. The 2 bits we have let them inspire other parts of your list without changing, so that’s OK I guess?

 Nevelon wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
What happens if you don't use epic heroes in your force? Will you be required to wedge one in?

The epic heros in crusade is in the new book that was just leaked last week. I don’t we have all the information yet as it’s not even on pre-order.

Whoops. Sorry.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
What happens if you don't use epic heroes in your force? Will you be required to wedge one in?

The epic heros in crusade is in the new book that was just leaked last week. I don’t we have all the information yet as it’s not even on pre-order.

—

I don’t mind having rules for them in crusade. i agree that they don’t really fit, but if people want to use them, they are kind of dead space in a roster. The 2 bits we have let them inspire other parts of your list without changing, so that’s OK I guess?

Of course that's just your own opinion. Because in reality wether or not they fit depends upon the story you're trying to tell. (You are trying to tell a story, right???)

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
What happens if you don't use epic heroes in your force? Will you be required to wedge one in?

The epic heros in crusade is in the new book that was just leaked last week. I don’t we have all the information yet as it’s not even on pre-order.

—

I don’t mind having rules for them in crusade. i agree that they don’t really fit, but if people want to use them, they are kind of dead space in a roster. The 2 bits we have let them inspire other parts of your list without changing, so that’s OK I guess?

Of course that's just your own opinion. Because in reality wether or not they fit depends upon the story you're trying to tell. (You are trying to tell a story, right???)

True. My opinion, my narrative.

And it might make sense for them to show up in places like the 4th? 5th? Battle of Armageddon. I forget what we are up to there. Big showdowns at key locations.

Those are generally stories I’m not interested in telling. I’m more interested in smaller stakes where individual My Guys have room to grow and shine.

But that’s just me. You do you, and have fun doing it.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
What happens if you don't use epic heroes in your force? Will you be required to wedge one in?

The epic heros in crusade is in the new book that was just leaked last week. I don’t we have all the information yet as it’s not even on pre-order.

—

I don’t mind having rules for them in crusade. i agree that they don’t really fit, but if people want to use them, they are kind of dead space in a roster. The 2 bits we have let them inspire other parts of your list without changing, so that’s OK I guess?

Leaked? I bought my copy of Namchmud Gauntlet a couple of weeks ago in-store. Or are we talking about a different book?

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
What happens if you don't use epic heroes in your force? Will you be required to wedge one in?

The epic heros in crusade is in the new book that was just leaked last week. I don’t we have all the information yet as it’s not even on pre-order.

—

I don’t mind having rules for them in crusade. i agree that they don’t really fit, but if people want to use them, they are kind of dead space in a roster. The 2 bits we have let them inspire other parts of your list without changing, so that’s OK I guess?

Leaked? I bought my copy of Namchmud Gauntlet a couple of weeks ago in-store. Or are we talking about a different book?

Probably? Are there epic hero rules in yours? Besides the stock “no xp, no advancement, no battle scars” ones?
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/kd8ir91o/daemons-ravage-armageddon-and-only-the-grey-knights-can-throw-them-back/

New crusade book was announced at adepticon. The article gives shouts out to epic character interactions.

ccs wrote:


Of course that's just your own opinion. Because in reality wether or not they fit depends upon the story you're trying to tell. (You are trying to tell a story, right???)

Sort of... I mean if they fit your narrative by all means, add them.

But there is an "Objectively, they don't fit" argument that can be made based on mechanics: they can't gain experience, and therefore can't gain battle honours, when literally EVERYTHING else in the game can. To be clear, I'm not making that argument personally- merely pointing out that it exists.

We've always been able to include them when the story needed them, but they've always been in this limbo where they can't interact fully with the system. What this new book does is provide ways for them to actively integrate with the system. I'm curious to see how they do it. I hope they don't just treat them like regular units- they need a tier of Crusade effects that apply not to them, but to the armies they command. There should also be conditions (hopefully narrative triggers) for their use.