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How do!

I’ve been browsing the new Solar Auxilia book, and it’s another galaxy spanning armed force where Las weapons are the small arm of choice. And as we know, whilst there are certainly fancier and more potent weapons out there, the humble Lasgun and Las-Rifle solved a large number of logistical problems.

They’re perfectly deadly enough, especially when deployed enmasse. There’s damn near universal power pack compatibility. Not only does a given power pack offer more shots compared to a similar sized magazine, but they’re also rechargeable. Though, from my last thread about Lasguns specifically, there isn’t much if any difference weight difference between Las and Auto weapons, including ammo.

And it’s safe to say these surprisingly miraculous bits of tech are the backbone of The Imperium.

So…what if the worst happened, and all knowledge of how to make them was lost? I mean, sure. You could fairly easily switch to Auto weapons. But then you’ve got the logistics to deal with. Unless you can NATO the chamber? You’re at an increased risk of supplying your troops with the wrong ammo. And you’d need to ship it in larger quantities more often.

Which then leads to other problems. When you’re making physical shells/round/bullets? You’ve got to get the materials from somewhere. Which means further mining, possibly redirecting resources to their exclusive manufacture etc.

Now sure, the Imperium has near infinite resources and the manpower to exploit it. But the supply chain is then the big issue. After all, it’s fine and well being to churn out trillions of rounds of ammo a day across your industrial base, but you still need to get them into the guns on the frontline for that to be worth a damn.

Orks have solved this by their very societal structure. Wherever the war engine goes, everyone goes. The Meks, Grots and even slaves travelling alongside, producing all the way. Often fuelled by cannibalising whatever is on hand.

But for The Inperium? it’s quite static in that regard. To make the switch, it would almost certainly need new production facilities to meet the sudden, potentially fatal, increase in demand. And that includes transportation. After all, with Lasgun packs being rechargeable, even a finite amount of times before not meeting military muster, you need fewer loads to keep a given front armed. Even if it’s five times? That five times the Auto ammo you need to get to each front.

What do you reckon? Have I over egged the problem? Have I woefully underestimated such an impact?

Las weapons get different power packs, it's something that is brought up in the Gaunts Ghosts books.
Clip size 8 for some weapons and clip size 5 for others.

The Munitorum will often order the clips for the Regiment that has the most numbers in a theatre. For example if Cadians use size 8, lots of size 8 gets ordered and the Frebian Hussars get stuck with no ammo because they use size 4.

The Imperium would likely just jump to Auto-weapons but I doubt there would be any massive change in overall efficiency.

If the Imperial Guard (and the far larger PDFs) switched from lasguns to autoguns then I pretty much agree with what Mad Doc is saying. A lot of resource would need to be moved to producing bullets for autoguns, something which isn't currently an issue for lasguns. As we know the Imperial Guard uses the humble lasgun because it is a durable weapon that is easily recharged (just chuck the clip into a fire for a little while), not because it is a particularly powerful weapon.

I think this wouldn't necessarily have a massive effect on the Imperial war machine in the long term, in the unlikely scenario that the Imperium suddenly stopped knowing how to produce lasguns there would be a pretty painful transition period though.

In the immediate short term I wonder if veteran Guard units might struggle to adapt?

I mean, when you’ve been married to your sidearm for years, and can no longer use it, that’s got to pose a challenge. Let alone where you can no longer easily recharge your ammo and now need downtime most if not every day to strip down and maintain your weapon all of a sudden.

Now, this isn’t an argument that an Imperium that never adopted the Lasgun would’ve been different in size and scale. They’d still have plenty of auto weapons available and no problem producing them in sufficient numbers.

But to have the flashy toy taken away? That’s where I think it would be a definite squeaky bum time for at least an initial transition period.

I think we underestimate munitorum and Mechanicus who produce all stuff. We already have logistical hell because russe's, basilisk, hydras don't use lastech it's all ol'good shells. Also heavy bolter's used in squads and heavy teams, autocannons, mortars rocket launchers... I think munitorum just add few points in delivery list and insanely large freighter haul autogun rounds to warzone.

kabaakaba wrote:
I think we underestimate munitorum and Mechanicus who produce all stuff. We already have logistical hell because russe's, basilisk, hydras don't use lastech it's all ol'good shells. Also heavy bolter's used in squads and heavy teams, autocannons, mortars rocket launchers... I think munitorum just add few points in delivery list and insanely large freighter haul autogun rounds to warzone.

Fair point. Not to mention that officers often carry bolt pistols, plasma pistols, etc... Also every squad has special weapons. So quite a variety of ammo to keep track of as it is.


I still think this specific scenario would be a short term issue rather than a long term one, the Imperium would adapt over time. Also I don't really see how it would be possible for the Imperium to suddenly lose the ability to make lasguns, so why worry about it at all?

Maybe I shouldn't pull on that last thread. If we start questioning the improbability of scenarios in a made up far future then the whole thing starts unravelling

El Torro wrote:If the Imperial Guard (and the far larger PDFs) switched from lasguns to autoguns then I pretty much agree with what Mad Doc is saying. A lot of resource would need to be moved to producing bullets for autoguns, something which isn't currently an issue for lasguns. As we know the Imperial Guard uses the humble lasgun because it is a durable weapon that is easily recharged (just chuck the clip into a fire for a little while), not because it is a particularly powerful weapon.

I think this wouldn't necessarily have a massive effect on the Imperial war machine in the long term, in the unlikely scenario that the Imperium suddenly stopped knowing how to produce lasguns there would be a pretty painful transition period though.

Recharging lasgun packs by unconventional means (like putting it in a fire) is something that was dialed down in recent stories, and painted as a measure you'd only take under desperate circumstances, and with real risks attached (in "Baphomet by night" such circumstances happen because guardsmen are delivered the wrong-size powerpacks for their weapons, they try the fire stuff, which is described as a trick they picked up from some Catachans, and it... does not work).

El Torro wrote:

kabaakaba wrote:
I think we underestimate munitorum and Mechanicus who produce all stuff. We already have logistical hell because russe's, basilisk, hydras don't use lastech it's all ol'good shells. Also heavy bolter's used in squads and heavy teams, autocannons, mortars rocket launchers... I think munitorum just add few points in delivery list and insanely large freighter haul autogun rounds to warzone.

Fair point. Not to mention that officers often carry bolt pistols, plasma pistols, etc... Also every squad has special weapons. So quite a variety of ammo to keep track of as it is.


I still think this specific scenario would be a short term issue rather than a long term one, the Imperium would adapt over time. Also I don't really see how it would be possible for the Imperium to suddenly lose the ability to make lasguns, so why worry about it at all?

Maybe I shouldn't pull on that last thread. If we start questioning the improbability of scenarios in a made up far future then the whole thing starts unravelling

Any civilized world that has come as far as mass-producing anything would be able to churn out some sort of autogun and related ammunition in almost any quantity they could need; it's not a complicated product as long as you have access to some basic chemicals and metals. It might not be top-of-the-line special forces grade, but a space kalashnikov is all you need to equip your bog-standard PDF forces. Mass autoguns would still bring additional logistical burdens, but then again the Imperium is not exactly a paragon of efficiency as it stands right now, they'd cope somehow. Probably by tossing additional bodies at the problem (perhaps literally, in adding additional people to that stuff around).

Lasgun cell can be recharget virtually anywhere, cause any Militarum vehicles has respective ports to do so. It's from our codex. But still it's doesn't affect munitorum logistic a bit.
Real benefit of lasgun and Las weapon in general that light go straight. If you not near blackhole( and here lasgun already matter nothing) your shot hit where you looking for through scope. But with autogun you need to understand ballistic a bit. So it's some burden for sergeant to teach his guys how to shoot traitors, mutants and heretics properly.
So problem mostly nonexistent

It would impact logistics though.

Info on how many shots a power pack provides is wildly varying. Some are pretty much the same as any high capacity magazine. Others are into the hundreds.

Going on the lower canonical sources (30-40 shots if memory serves, depending on potentially variable power settings), with the recharge option, switching to solid rounds is going to significantly increase what you need to supply.

Consider this. I’m going to make three assumptions here, but they’re only for simplifying the matter. They shouldn’t be taken as gospel or reflective of specific canonical background,

First, that a fully loaded magazine and power pack are of the same weight and dimensions.

Second, that the Munitorum, to allow for losses in the field and malfunction, assumes a given power pack would be recharged five times before resupply becomes necessary.

Thirdly, that sufficient power packs to keep a regiment armed would fit into 3 Munitorium Armoured Containers per day.

Switch to solid ammo? And that’s now the contents of 15 Munitorum Armoured Containers per regiment, per day, just to match.

Which isn’t just a significant increase in inter-system shipping. But a significant increase and so stress on battlefield supply lines. You’d need more haulers, and depending on what your front lines and that look like? More escort troops/vehicles for those supply trains.

Plus, once on the front lines? If a Guardsman is issued three power packs (one in the gun, two spare), with the expectation and equipment to at least partially recharge them? For a comparable number of Autogun Magazines, you’re adding weight, and or another step of logistics to keep a steady supply throughout a battle.

Sidenote? I wonder how long it takes to recharge a power cell via conventional “plug it in here, this is what this device is for” means.

I think this thread is putting more thoughts into the logistics of the Imperium than GW ever has. Just as a reminder.

It’s a fun thing to explore, though, so I’m onboard!

One could argue the miracle that is the Lasgun is what’s allowed the Imperium to be a bit lax on logistics.

Our battlefield logistic is already shity. But we should stop here. You don't recharge your cells on the battlefield. You grab as many as you can and go do your guard things. When you return into camp, if you survive of course you go set your cells into recharger. Absolutely the same you return and rearm your magazines. Munitorum don't give a gak if it 10 or 20 more transport per day, whole Imperium logistic exist for munitorum needs only. We don't consider that munitorum is monstrous abomination that can sand wrong calibers or send ruber ducks instead of ammo. It's like USSR where all things for sake of army. We need this beautiful 40th army at our eastern border? No problem all trains that don't used for other military would be used to transport troops and vehicles where they needed.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One could argue the miracle that is the Lasgun is what’s allowed the Imperium to be a bit lax on logistics.

Except for…
Autocannons, bolters, battle cannons, assault cannons, flamers and fuel for vehicles…

It’s definitely a big help. But the Imperium would still be a logistical nightmare.

Kind of?

That the Lasgun requires comparatively straight forward logistics, makes room for the more complex logistics.

Huge as they are, even a Mass Conveyor still has ultimately finite hold space. If a proportion of that space is suddenly needed for small arms Autogun Ammo? You’re still looking at a fresh problem of logistics.

To continue my example from above?

Let’s say Lasgun ammunition containers take up 5% of a Mass Conveyor’s cargo space. That’s now 25%.

Even if it’s 1%, going up to 5% is still squeezing out other supplies, or requiring more ships. Rinse and repeat across every front The Imperium is engaged in, and the problem only escalates.

Not to mention that the Lasgun is a better weapon to be carrying when your supply lines fail.

Sure, in such circumstances your heavy and special weapons are going to run dry and you’ll be in trouble. But provided you can keep at least some charge in your power packs? You can still defend yourself. Whereas once you’re out of Autogun ammo? That’s it, your out.

Also remember doesn't good part of ammo producen on machanicus arcs?

Possibly? But there are only so many of those to go round. Plus. the Mechanicus being a law unto themselves, there’s no guarantee they’ll be or stick around.

It still also need a supply of raw materials and storage space between offloads.

IMHO munitorum is too large, there's no thing like not enough supply/resources/transport. Yes for short period of few years there shall be some disastrous chaos, some regiments would be wiped without anny ammo to fight, but cogs click and our beloved clockwork of war move further. Some resources would be redirected, few hundred worlds get new quotas for metals and explosives and Guards get their ammo. AND we forget main thing. Lasgun is main weapon for 10000 years. There is stocks for few generation of guards, and when all that lasguns was consumed, logistic would be ready. Some regiments would be already equiped with autogans halfway. It's like when I'm at mil service there is thousand of new ak-47 which not used for 50 years already but there is stocks what made earlier. Same for lasguns but there is thousands years of production.

Well, if the ability to make lasguns is lost, then the Imperium has fallen already.

You've lost Mars, Deimos, Titan, Terra, Ryza, Metallica and an abundance of Forge Worlds/Moons across the Imperium of Man.

Oh and Necromunda. Don't want ro forget the Van Saar's STC.

Or someone just hit an hitherto unknown “delete all” button on on a new found STC fragment

Or there is some hydra dominatus and some alpha shenanigans.
But common, lasguns produced not only on forge worlds.

There would be a giant hiccup while all the logistics switched to autoguns, but things would grind on. Slower and not as efficient as it was with lasguns, (which is saying something)

One perk of autoguns, and their ammo, is that they are dead simple to make. Instead of being cranked out at forge worlds and major hives, we might see more cottage industry level production. Maybe a techpriest and a few servitors set up shop alongside the guard regiments and resupply in the field? Sure, you loose out on the economy of scale of a forge worlds, but save on logistics and transport.

Also, can you imagine the spent brass from a guard engagement? If they shot autoguns like they shoot lasguns, there would be mountains of it. Which could be duly collected and reloaded. As material is generally more valuable the manpower, worth the time scavenging.

Common descriptions of Autoguns point toward caseless ammo.

I’m not knowledgable enough to say if those are more or less demanding resources wise to manufacture. Though one assumes it would mean you’re not reliant on lots and lots and lots of brass. But equally, nothing to be recycled?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Common descriptions of Autoguns point toward caseless ammo.

I’m not knowledgable enough to say if those are more or less demanding resources wise to manufacture. Though one assumes it would mean you’re not reliant on lots and lots and lots of brass. But equally, nothing to be recycled?

Descriptions or artwork?

Back in the 80’s caseless ammo was the way of the future! so high tech, so cool! But do you know what looks cooler? Hot brass spitting from guns, decorating bases.

I’m not a gun guy. But we are a few decades into the past’s future, and still using cased ammo. I can only assume it’s for a reason. Might be simpler and more economical to make. Might be more reliable. Either of those could still hold true in 40k.

Either way, cased or caseless, I could still see it being simple enough to set up shop and make in the field. With a note that “the field” might not be in the actual trenches, but set up on a nearby system/planet/orbtial.

You need the right materials science. The propellant block needs to inherently achieve the protection, weatherproofing and binding ability of what we currently use brass casings for. On the plus side, caseless reduces the weight of the cartridge. On the down side, the weapons lose the inherent ability to shed heat through discharging the brass.

Descriptions.

40K Artwork is often over stylised. Like Paul Kidby’s Granny Weatherwax looking like your average witch (hooked nose, warts etc), when the character is explicitly embarrassed by her flawless skin and perfect teeth.

I think the main reason we don’t use caseless rounds now is that they don’t have enough of a benefit over cased. The G11 project stopped due to the end of the Cold War and the reunification of Germany.

Skimmed the discussion, but not sure if anyone has suggested this yet:

If lasguns tech suddenly vanished or never existed to begin with and switching to auto weapons really was a logistical nightmare (feels like a big ask to me), then is it possible that the admech would just have to give in and start building/distributing skitarii weapons? Some of those are energy-based, right? Assuming that they aren't significantly harder to recharge than lasguns, it would make a certain amount of sense for them to give up one of their tech advantages (better rifles) in order to ensure that the imperium is able to keep most threats from reaching their forgeworlds.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Skimmed the discussion, but not sure if anyone has suggested this yet:

If lasguns tech suddenly vanished or never existed to begin with and switching to auto weapons really was a logistical nightmare (feels like a big ask to me), then is it possible that the admech would just have to give in and start building/distributing skitarii weapons? Some of those are energy-based, right? Assuming that they aren't significantly harder to recharge than lasguns, it would make a certain amount of sense for them to give up one of their tech advantages (better rifles) in order to ensure that the imperium is able to keep most threats from reaching their forgeworlds.

The two main Skitarii weapons are...

Radium Carbines
Which have the issue of being massively radioactive. Vanguard have short lives even with cybernetic enhancements-without them, you'd lose anyone using it within a month.

Galvanic Rifles
Use bullets, so no real bonus there.

Thinking about the size of typical assault rifle magazines, and the sizes of things like Heavy Bolter ammunition boxes, you could ship a whole lot of Autogun magazines for a single case of HB ammunition. And Heavy Bolters are everywhere in the Imperium. I think the obstacle of getting the ammo to where it needs to go is largely a non-issue.

Training for ballistics shouldn't be too much of an issue, since Autocannons and Grenade Launchers are already common weapons in the Guard/PDF.

Being able to make autoguns "irl" is one of the first wartime manufacturing practices a nation can take up, so likely many Imperial worlds can do the same and then train/familiarize their populace to autoguns if they aren't already.

Lasguns are basically miraculous technology, but I don't think removing them would change too much. I think the statistics are that most (if not the vast, vast majority) wartime casualties are typically coming from bombs and artillery anyways. Changing the type of small arm from one common, simple one to another common, simple one will have an effect, but not a very big one.

Do we know if the war machine of the imperium actually manufactures autoguns at a conflict level scale?

They seem mostly to be local planetary productions, used by gangs, local PDF and/or some poor regiments that are shipped off world made up of the gangs.

IMO the FWs wouldn't manufacture them because they make lasguns which are, once you have the battery tech, easier to make with fewer raw materials. There's no reason for them to have entire factories set up to produce the additional components nor the mines required to produce all the raw materials needed to make those guns in the millions.

A planetary industry making them for the populace, sure. But the official guard armourer? Perhaps not.

the closest thing to an autogun they manufacture at a conflict scale is the heavy stubber, used on tank pintles and rarely by foot troops.

They could retrofit the factories that make heavy stubbers to produce rifle sized versions, either using their current ammunition, or using smaller dies to make smaller rounds.

Either way, the heavy stubber shows that they can manufacture slug throwers at scale for war, even if they aren't using autoguns.