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Ok, so besides the fact that it may never come around, what should it have if it does?

A few things but not the only things I think it needs:

Warriors, let them replace splinter rifle for SP and CCW

Mandrakes, give them more weapon options, the advantages that they get don't suit their weapons, maybe same gear as warriors?

Wyches, upgrade to 5+ save for 1pt extra

Grotesques, allow their feel no pain in close combat

Add in slave squads, low pt, low bs/ws lasgun toting guys.

Maybe a 'protection' rule similar to that of a tyrant and tyrant guard for wych archites/drachites and their wych retinue where they can't be singled out.

Get rid of scourges, or drop their points signifigantly.

Dunno what a 5+ armor save for Wyches would accomplish. That option is available to Tyranid Gaunts, and it's not a coincidence that no one ever takes it. They're bolter meat if they get caught in the open either way.

Grots, Mandrakes, Hellions and Scourges all need a major overhaul, IMO. Most of the rest of the army works pretty well. I think Incubi would be more interesting as a separate Elites choice.

I like the idea of taking Incubi as their own choice, another thing that would be nice would be to be able to take Haemonculi as Elites

Actually, what would make sense to me is to roll Haemonculi and Grots together into one unit, then fix the Grot rules. So you end up with either an HQ & retinue kind of thing, or an Elites choice where the Haemonculus would serve as a mandatory vet serg. of sorts. Then give the Haemonculus some interesting wargear options that make sense for a leader of a unit of Grots.

Another thing I was thinking would be nice would be to give incubi the 'bodyguard' thing that Crisis Suit command squads & Hive Tyrants/Guard get, where the archon/dracon they are with can't be picked out in HTH

give the splinter rifle the same rule as kroot guns the one that gives the wealder additional ccw.

slaves should get some thing other then a lasgun i doubt that the eldar waste there time picking up them and i doubt that they let the slaves take them in to captivaty maybe somthing like a weaker splinter rifle  

Hmmm...I notice no one is talking about *reducing* any units' power, only pumping them up. Isn't there a general consensus that some things are too good in the DE codex? Ie triple-disintegrator Ravagers, min sized Warrior 'sniper squads' with 2 DLs...?

I'm all for beefing up weak units, but there's such a thing as 'codex creep'.

I like uplifitingprimer's idea for splinter rifles though, that seems reasonable. Incubi squads, spicing up Mandrakes and Grotesques also are good ideas.

I hate the idea of giving the Archon/Dracon protection from being singled out in HTH. Mind you, I hated that the Tau got that too. I wouldn't even mind if the Hive Tyrant lost it, really. It seems really lame to make a sweeping change in 4th ed that makes characters less useful in HTH, and then give special rules exempting most of the ICs from that rule in the new codices.

Maybe I'm just sad that IG officers, who can't even be fielded without a retinue, can still be singled out

mandrakes are a nifty unit. However, they would benifit greatly if they were only allowed to have a Sergent-like upgrade. Just some guy with an extra attack that can take wargear.

Give Raiders Armour 11 in the Front arc, so they can't be taken by Bolters in that arc.
And some sort of 'Eldar Raiders' special rule that all vehicles count as moving fast on turn 1.

Love the idea of Incubi as a separate Elite choice.

I like some of the suggestions so far.  I'll second gorgon's as well.

HQ
Have a better armor option for the Archon/Dracon.  The idea that an Archon would have inferior armor to his bodyguard is ridiculous.  I'm sure he doesn't trust them 'that' much. 

Change up some of the wargear options, and tone down the close combat aspect of the Archon.  You either see: Shadowfield, combat drugs, pistol, and agonizer or shadowfield, combat drugs, tormenter helm, and punisher.  BORING....

ELITES

Grotesques need to be reworked.  They don't function very well at all in the current rules - torrent of fire anyone?  Allocating hits that reach the attached Haemonculus?  Haemonculus being targeted in close combat?  Then you're left with Ld5 stupid models...

I like the idea above about having the Haemonculus and Grotesques form a unit a la trooper/sargeant.  Get rid of the immunity to S6 or less weapons, maybe up their T, and give them 'feel no pain'. 

Mandrakes only need Poison Blades to be more effective.  At no points cost.  They'll hit and wound with lots of attacks, but the enemy gets saves.

TROOPS
I'd love an assault weapon in the hands of Warriors (If the Eldar don't want them, I'll take their shuriken catapults ).  Or, as mentioned, treating them as kroot rifles.  I don't know that I'd want to give them sp/ccw, as they'd be impinging on the Wyche territory.

FAST ATTACK
I don't know if I'd change anything here... I never use FA in my army...

Heavy Support
Either make Scourges able to take ccw/sp or remove them.  A 5+ save, expensive, heavy weapon squad is useless in a fast army like the DE.  They could function as Devs, though (and just ignore the wings).

Talos - make the Talos sting a Splinter Cannon, or even a Twin-linked one - if you look, the model actually sports two splinter cannons.

Make the Attack characteristic a 3 or 4.  While the d6 looks good on paper, ugh...

I think with minor work around the codex, it could be really good with lots of options...

 

 

Good point on the Talos attacks. Sounds like that's the trend anyway. The Kroot rifle idea is also a nice one.

I'll second the need for armor on Archons/Dracons, but then also change the shadowfield to something like a normal 4+ inv save that doesn't burn out.

Regarding the Elite Haemonculi/Grot unit, give the unit upgrade options to represent the experimentation done by the Haemonculi.

DE jetbikes should clearly receive the Eldar jetbike rule.

Posted By gorgon on 08/03/2006 10:24 AM
I'll second the need for armor on Archons/Dracons, but then also change the shadowfield to something like a normal 4+ inv save that doesn't burn out.


This would make it like every other Invulnerable Save out there. I think it's better to leave it alone and give them alittle character.

Number one complaint: better names for the units in the troop section. Even in a milquetoast army like Necrons "warrior" is a dull, dull moniker. Go with the BDSM pirate motif, call the warrior squads brigands and the raider squads dragoons. And for God's sake, give the raider squad the option for a second assault weapon instead of a heavy. A bunch of pissed off sadist elves with two blasters and a fast skimmer would be great.

Good call on Raider squads...IMO they should remove the heavy option completely for the 2nd assault option. They have to finetune what the units are really meant to do.

And I agree regarding unit names...I'd extend that to say the DE need a fluff rewrite.

Hmmm...I notice no one is talking about *reducing* any units' power, only pumping them up. Isn't there a general consensus that some things are too good in the DE codex? Ie triple-disintegrator Ravagers, min sized Warrior 'sniper squads' with 2 DLs...?

I'm all for beefing up weak units, but there's such a thing as 'codex creep'.

I see what you are saying, but the reason for beefing up other units is to make it so that you don't HAVE to take 3-6 100pt min/max warrior squads, as it stands, every army has: archon, 3 wych squads 4-6 squads warriors.

As for the 3 dis or 2dis/1dl ravager, you are dropping a bunch of points on something that dies so easily. They are reasonable to take and worth their points IF they are used right, but hardly overpowered or underpriced.

Some Pirate looking models...
but as far as rules go,i'd say rework the fluff a little to be able to make them more proper pirates.
Change the Talos rules.Although i dont play them,i have the codex and D6 attacks seems a little over (both good and bad).
Perhaps add some more armor to them.Not proper tanks but something like and improved Raider.

I am probably alone in this, but I kinda like the bondage elves idea. The actual fluff is written by someone who should stay away from prose like a slug avoids salt, but maybe we can get a more intelligent version of this stuff now that he's working on WFB (is he? I can't keep track). They're pirates, okay, but mostly they're not concerned with hijacking ships for gold & jewels. They need souls. Portraying them less as gleeful marauders and more as the desperate & doomed remnants of a fallen dynasty is all the fluff writers need to do to float my boat. They've found a way to hold off the great devourer for today. Tomorrow? Who knows. Maybe they and regular Eldar should get the preferred enemies rule vs. each other: they resent the other sides' refusal to join what they consider to be the only path to survival. Eldar think living a long but natural life is the honorable thing to do and the Dark Eldar have willingly sunk into greed & barbarism; the DE think the craftworlders refuse to face reality and idly await their fate and eternal imprisonment in their craftworld's infinity circuit, sitting ducks for whatever black crusade or hive fleet manages to destroy the ship and unwittingly serve them up to Slaanesh on a silver platter.

Re: game mechanics, a lot of my ideas are inspired by/stolen from you other posters in this thread. Here's how it breaks down:

Lord: all around great, could use an Incubi armor upgrade and possibly a second, less effective refractor field-esque invulnerable save option. Maybe not, I don't know.

Haemonculus: Also okay, give him a grotesque bodyguard & transport option

Incubi: Including these guys as a seperate Elites choice wouldn't be a bad idea, since they're the coolest models in the range. Maybe they have to take an Incubi master (or just a +1A vet sarge version, call him a flayer or apprentice or something).

Grotesques: Need to come with the Haemi, possibly a less powerful version than the HQ guys that's only available in the elite slots. I always struggle with the cenralized USRs s. flavorful individual rules, I can see the appeal of both, but I'd suggest replacing their specialized form of Feel No Pain with the regular ignore wounds version. This would give them an edge in close combat but doesn't totally screw enemy squads with no powerfists.

Mandrakes: Fun rules, absolutely no combat effectiveness or staying power. A unit champ, point drop, bonus attacks on the first charge, or rending claw option would make them work.

Wyches: Don't change a thing

Warp Beasts: Make fast attack? These guys are worlds better than the current FA units.

Warriors: Lower points cost for unit champ's armory items as in the newer codices. Add some kind of assaulty firearm option. I'd say pistol/ccw works for me, a lot of folks have suggested borrowing the Kroot rifle rules. I thought that would take away flavor from the unique Kroot unit, but if everyone's for it maybe I need to shut up. I'd also love to see shredders become S5 flamer template weapons, since blast templates blow now.

Raider squad: Don't lose the heavy option, just add in swapping it for a second assault weapon.

Hellions: Something has to happen here. These guys are a little fragile for the points cost. I know that's the theme of the DE army, fast & fragile, but when they're up there with Incubi as the only competently sculpted models in the range and nobody wants to touch them you know that's a sign something ain't right. A jink save is a crapshoot, not a bonus. Maybe make hellglaives assault 2 or count as 2 ccw's or something, why have an assault squad that can't fire their freaking weapons? Also, a second assault weapon in the squad. One assault weapon's not much good, even with BS4. Maybe two models can have a shredder, a blaster, a terrorfex, or a punisher.

Reavers: Like hellions, fragile. Now that everybody turboboosts these guys cost as much as scout bikes but have a worse weapon, less toughness, no scout rule, and while combat drugs sure aren't bad the randomness doesn't gel with high model cost. If they cost a little less I think they'd be competing with wyches for primary assault unit in non WWP armies.

Scourges: Way, way overpriced. Here again sp/ccw and assault weapon options would be great. Maybe take a page from the incubi's book and have them ape Swooping Hawks with regards to improved small arms. A 24" assault 3 splinter weapon would really help me feel good about paying double the cost of a warrior for guys with the durability of tinfoil on an open battlefield.

Ravagers: Great. Leave 'em alone.

Talos: Make it a little cheaper and less random to start with but then add in the random stuff as options (comes with a splinter cannon, can upgrade to stinger, add crushing claws-type rules for +X number of points, replace monstrous creature CCWs with two more splinter cannons or stingers, etc.). The Haemonculi are supposed to be mad scientists, make this their Frankenstein monster.

I know someone above mentioned that we don't want to overpower the units, but the fact that lords, warriors, wyches, ravagers, and warp beasts are the only things you really see on the table doesn't mean they're undercosted and the rest of the list is well written and fairly priced.

First I would like to thank Mr. X.  You seem like the only person to have actually played DE, while the rest seem to have only fought against DE.<?

 

Cruentus said:

 

Change up some of the wargear options, and tone down the close combat aspect of the Archon.  You either see: Shadowfield, combat drugs, pistol, and agonizer or shadowfield, combat drugs, tormenter helm, and punisher.  BORING....

 

 

Yes it is boring, but then have you really looked at the DE armory?  These are some simple facts that I as a DE player know, but I think you may be lacking. 

 

Fact:  It will take on average 15-16 splinter rifle/pistol shots to kill a single SM

Fact:  How many Mandrakes does it take to kill a single SM if they are charging?  10

Fact:  10 hellions attacking the same 10 SMs would only kill the same 1-2 with their 20 attacks

Fact:  Any non Haemonculus HQ has a great BS, why?  What are they going to use, a splinter pistol!!!!!!!!

Fact:  There are non DE units that are true infiltrators, thus the army that is supposed to surprise you cannot.

Fact:  Soul Seeker Ammo sounds cool, but then who can use it?  And when they use it you are still left with a splinter weapon, see above.

Fact:  Combat drugs for wyches/reavers/hellions.  You have to roll for them, let me choose the one I want.

Fact:  Large amount of pinning weapons that will not work on fearless, ohhhh boy.

Fact:  Wyches are so nimble they get a 4+ INV in h2h, but if you blow a moving raider out of the air, most will die.  However if you shoot a Ork Truk, the boyz only get wounded on a 6+, ummmmmmmm yea ok.

Fact:  Too many things in the Codex are there for stupid fluff reasons, not because it is useful like the Talos wildfire, soul seeker ammo, Mandrakes, slave snares, all fex stuff, the stupid doll, and the list goes on?.

Fact:  An 8 point warrior using a splinter cannon will kill more people than the mighty Talos with its Talos Sting

Fact: Talos is the only fearless unit in the whole army, kind of goes against the fluff doesn?t it?

Fact:  For every story about ?the shadowfield that would not drop? I have a ?the shadowfield that dropped like a $2 whore? story, so stop with the ?overpowered? crying.

Fact: Reaver Jetbike only upgrades are a blaster or a shredder.  The blaster only has a 12? range and the shredder sucks now.

Fact:  DE only have 2 weapons that fire more than 24?

 

Nobody fears the DE anymore, but in the hands of someone experienced, they can hurt you.  There are so many things wrong with the Codex that you really only see a handful of DE army types.  This is due in a large part that to be effective, you simply cannot use some units.  Mr. X is the only person I have seen mention that fact that hellions cannot even fire their weapons and still assault.  Units that don?t work under 4^th edition, not that they worked well before?

 

 

 

Grotesques

Mandrakes

Hellions

Scourges

Reavers

 

But this was a ?What does it need? question, not ?what sucks? question.  Ok give me deep strike ability for raiders AND I can get off to assault.  Let Talos Deep Strike when the rule is in effect.  Allow DE fear causing things to work on fearless models.  Maybe they spent time perfecting it, like a preferred enemy thing, but for fear.  Give me some kind of effective shield for a raider or ravager so they last past turn 2.  Give me a combi-blaster for a wargear option.  Give me some new cool models.  FYI, the only plastic model DE have is the warrior model.  Make Mandrakes something to be feared, please!!!!!!!!  Ok that is enough for now, most of you never even read this far, for those that did, thanks.

 

NeverMore

Fact: There are non DE units that are true infiltrators, thus the army that is supposed to surprise you cannot.

Should be:

Fact: There are no DE units that are true infiltrators, thus the army that is supposed to surprise you cannot.


NeverMore

i like your ideas, but i hear DE win like all the time if the player is good. Also, Tyranid armies are death to DE as it is, cause they cant fall back or be insta-killed. Also Venom Cannons are crazy against them, with Strength 8 and 2+ shots for a tyrant they cant last long. Also, can we compare the stats of Eldar and DE?

Guardian WS3 BS3 I3 (i think) and a gun that is practically useless if you havent got 20 of them
Warrior WS4 BS4 I5 and a gun that is slightly better than a lasgun, but still sucks

Both are identical in other respects (pretty much)

What if someone made a swarm army of DE? Just a crapload of Warriors. Then i'd say 8 points each is a little too little.

Fact: Cruentus is a DE player.

I play against him regularly, and we're both GT vets.

Regarding some of your comments:

Fact: For every story about ?the shadowfield that would not drop? I have a ?the shadowfield that dropped like a $2 whore? story, so stop with the ?overpowered? crying

I don't see a single person "crying" here. I'm actually of the opinion that options for a 3+ armor save and a regular 4+ inv. save might be more useful than a 2+ inv. that shorts out.

Moreover, I don't think deep striking Raiders or Talos are really the answer. A re-evaluation of the codex should start by looking at the many units that are completely broken. Identify their proper role and fix them accordingly, then see how the list performs. 

Personally, I think that WWPs can already solve for some of the problems with Raiders. If you make them more of a central feature to the list (and maybe give them some minor tweaks), suddenly Raiders wouldn't look so bad.  Same goes for Talos (not that their rules don't need cleaning up). 

Mr. X has the right idea regarding Scourges...they would have a clearer role and be more effective if they aped the new Swooping Hawks.  Let them DS around the table, unloading some dakka (and maybe a template Shredder(s), also a good call), and you might have something players can work with.  Warp Beast to FA is also a good idea. 

Personally I'd like to see the splinter cannon become a Assault weapon. I'd bet Scourges would become extremely popular then.

Talos stings really need to be rethought, The DE players I've played against who used Talos didn't even bother using it.

The DE Warrior horde isn't that scary. I've faced it and the only reason I didn't get a massacre against him was because the GK Terminators couldn't wound a Talos in 3 rounds of close combat.

er... um... Unless I have a different codex, splinter cannons are assault weapons...

Really? Huh, last DE guy I played against insisted they were heavy. Carry on then.

@Nevermore:  Actually, I do play DE, its my primary army right now.  And I'm very successful with it.  The problem is that 1) there are many units in the codex that didn't transition to 4th ed (well, if at all); and 2) most of the armies you see are pretty much the same (tooled Lord, either Wyches or Raiders, sprinkle with Jetbikes liberally).  This is due to #1 above, and the almost complete uselessness of most of the DE wargear (most being psychology based, which was removed from the game).

You make some good points, and all of your 'facts' were in fact pointed out by myself and other posters, just in a much nicer way. 

My suggestions are not intended to make any of the lacking DE units 'uber', but to make them 'useable' in the game.  As it stands, you can build a very effective list with nothing but warriors and wyches.  Hellions are one of the better models in the line, yet the rules stink.  Grotesques are an interesting concept, but don't work in 4th ed for numerous reasons, as I mentioned.

Instead of trying to make everything super-good, I'd settle making everything good/decent, so that I have some options in list building.  It wouldn't take much tweaking to make a good list, without having to do a whole re-write (when is that again, 2009?)

And, since this is supposed to be a 'discussion' about what the DE need, thanks for posting in a "know-it-all" and inflammatory manner.  Its noted and appreciated.

@nobody:  Yes, the splinter cannon is assault, as pointed out.  The problem is that it is a 20 point upgrade, per scourge, to an already overpriced model.  You'll land, fire off 16 S4, AP5 shots, really not kill anything, and then get vaporized.  They have no ability to take fire.  Looks good on paper, doesn't work well in the game (like the Talos sting, and having d6 attacks on a profile).   

Cruentus:  First let me apologize.  I sometimes get a little spun up talking about how inadequate the DE codex is especially after the 4^th was released.  My intent was to allow non-DE players to better understand the frustrations DE players have to deal with everyday in a very clear format, not to be a know-it-all jerk.  I also must apologize to Gorgon.<?

 

Gorgon:  You are correct, nobody was crying about the shadow field.  That was just my stupid memory.  See I combined what you said:

 

I'll second the need for armor on Archons/Dracons, but then also change the shadow field to something like a normal 4+ inv save that doesn't burn out.

 

And what Strangelooper said:

 

Hmmm...I notice no one is talking about *reducing* any units' power, only pumping them up. Isn't there a general consensus that some things are too good in the DE codex? Ie triple-disintegrator Ravagers, min sized Warrior 'sniper squads' with 2 DLs...?

 

And then after a few days, my memory combined them into someone saying the shadow field is too good.  That was my fault entirely.  Sorry about that.

 

Cruentus:  Again you make several good points, spend time correcting the units that are useless without pointing out more things that are bad/useless, but don?t make them ?uber?, and don?t do it in a ?know it all manner?.  So let me try this again.

 

I think we have all come to a conclusion that Mandrakes need some help.  At 15pts a model they lack some punch.  I noted before that 10 Mandrakes on the charge should only expect to kill 1 SM in assault.  Here are some suggestions, let me know what you think.  They are not all intended to be used together, that would make them too good.

 

1.        Give Mandrakes an extra base attack, they are an Elite choice after all and Grotesques have 2 base

2.        Make Mandrakes a real infiltration unit so they can use the 4^th ed. rule, but remove the hidden deployment possibly, or maybe give them something like the Space Wolves sneak attack ability

3.        Allow Mandrakes a Vet upgrade, but do not allow him to take a Webway portal, 50 points of wargear max

4.        Give Mandrakes a variant of poison blades, like the Haemonculus scissor hands.  It should wound on a 3+ and allow the extra close combat weapon.

5.        Allow Mandrakes to get a haywire grenades upgrade.

6.        Make their assault save a 4+ Inv possibly, due to the shadow skin properties

7.        Increase their WS to 5 and drop the BS to 3, also just remove the splinter pistols and give them a CCW instead.

8.        New Models

 

For those of you that may not know, it has been suspected that the reason the Mandrakes do not have a vet upgrade is to make sure that they can never take a Webway portal, which would make Mandrakes an unstoppable Webway portal delivery system.

 

I have ideas on Hellions, Grotesques, and Jetbikes, but in the interest of time, I will stop here.

 

 

NeverMore

@Nevermore: No problem.  It happens to all of us

Believe me, I can appreciate the frustration of DE players, but I started them for the challenge, and they have been that.  I think, though, that we now officially can carry the mantle of oldest codex in print...

With regard to your suggestions on Mandrakes, I think a combination of things you suggested might work:
1) Give them either the Scout USR or Infiltrate (maybe both?).  While I think the rules they have are interesting, I think they're overly complicated, especially as they relate to some scenarios - how do you grab an objective with a 'mandrake marker'?

2) Give them some punch in close combat.  I'm loathe to give out Rending.  I prefer the scissorhands/poison blades option (as it fits the fluff stories about very 'bladey' shadowy figures).  If you give them 2 attacks on the profile (with poison blades), they you're getting 3 attacks on the charge, and each Mandrake should wound 1 marine (hit 1.5, wound on 2+).  That means that 10 Mandrakes could kill 3 marines, on average.

I think for anything more than that, you'd be talking about higher points, especially as you get into invulnerable cc saves, higher WS, etc.  I think there are a lot of ways you could go. 

The Space Wolf scout ability is interesting....hmmm...that would make it tough for the enemy to keep things on their board edge...but then I'd want to give them a haywire option.  Let me mull that over...   

What I would not want to do is create a carbon-copy of almost every other unit in the game (basic trooper + sarge + wargear).  It gets predictable.

I'd be interested in hearing any and all ideas you have for other units.   

Cruentus:<?

 

I like the Mandrakes at 3 attacks on the charge with poison blades.  When I did the calculation I get 4 dead Marines, but not a big deal really.  I have another suggestion about their new and improved hidden deployment option.  Make it something like the Nid Lictor.  They come out of cover, any cover, anywhere they want.  You could have them reserve.  However unlike the Lictors DS, they would just pop out and be able to move, FoF, and assault on that turn since they have been hiding there since before the game started, kind of like the SWs Scouts.  Also I would make them a 0-1 option.  3 of them would be a bit over the top.  Now some will say that it may be too powerful.  However against a standard issue 10 man bolter squad with a Vet using a power sword, I show the drakes killing 4.  The Marines in turn kill 2 and thus loose the combat which is no big deal for them really.  The following turn things start to average out against the drakes with them only killing 2 SMs while loosing 1-2.  So in essence the drakes could take out a simple troop unit.  But shouldn?t an elite unit be able to take out a troop unit if it gets the charge bonus?  If you start doing the math and they assaulted an assault unit, or someone with more than 1 attack, things get ugly on round 2.  I don?t think they are over priced at 15 points under these options.  Remember to take them someone has to think they are better choice than a wych unit for a reason, and for 15 points a model you have a normal wych with a plasma grenade, which drakes don?t need, but the wych gets nice wych weapon options, and a 4+ Inv save, not to mention the drugs, all for the same point cost.  It also would create a unit for DE that could target the opponents infantry heavy weapon units that sit back in cover usually.  They would have to consider placing them in that standard location, just like people have to consider that the SW Scouts can come in from the opponent table edge.  For 15 points they have a purpose and the means to complete that purpose.  DE really could use something to knock out the enemy heavy weapon units that can take out Raiders at range.  With them coming in reserve they don't help on turn 1 ever and may not come in until too late, thus being useless, which makes them a option to think carefully about before you take them.

 

 

Ok so next unit of discussion:  Hellions and yea you are right one of the best models DE have.  Here are my suggestions, and again not to all be using together:

 

1.        Hellions should get a +1 to S and T just like a bike, leave the Jink save alone, Hell glaive still gives +1 to S on the charge

2.        Place the splinter rifle on the board, thus it can be fired just like from a bike without impacting the assault (also it is an easy mod on the current model)

3.        Give them an option for 2 blasters, not just one

4.        Allow them to pick which drug option they want

5.        Don?t give them a +1 to S for the board or the Hell Glaive, but make it rending weapon on the charge, I know you are shuddering, but think about it?..

6.        Maybe give them some type of flame weapon upgrade instead of the shredder, or make the shredder a large blast template since the shredder has basically been totally neutered in 4^th

 

 

Let me know what you think.

 

NeverMore

Simple fixes for the hellions. Make their weapons 24" assault 2. Make them count at two close combat weapons. let them take two weapon upgrades.

wait a minute why would you want to give the mandrakes a +4 in save in h2h?? I use them all the time but i never assault any one in the open but i do assault them in cover where i get that nice +2 modifier to there cover sv and i let them remain in cover for most of the game too