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Lord knows I've tried. I've bought some models and painted them up, got a slew of the books, which I have poured over. I haven't managed to pick up a game but, to be honest, I don't really even want to. I recognize they're a good company with some cool ideas. But most of their miniatures look goofy to me. GW doesn't seem to have a great deal of respect for you and me and the rest of its customers. But if you don't really like PP's stuff, like I don't, then PP is not really an alternative.

There's been a lot of this sentiment buzzing around the threads criticizing GW so I wanted to post this here so there is a place where it's on-topic.

This isn't flamebaiting, folks. I'm not saying you can't like it or that it's objectively horrible. People who agree with the above, please make sure to stay polite.

***Also, I changed the thread title since that is where this heading anyhow.

***As per the suggestion of CaptainJack, I've changed the title of this thread again.

Here's the list so far w/links.

- PP (Warmachine, Hordes, Monsterpocalypse)
- Infinity (sci-fi skirmish)
- Malifaux (horror/steampunk skirmish)
- MERCS (sci-fi skirmish)
- Rezolution (sci-fi skirmish)
- Battletech
- Heavy Gear
- Urban War/Metropolis (sci-fi skirmish/army)
- Cutlass! (fantasy pirate skirmish)
- Hisroricals (including FoW)
- Secrets of the Third Reich (alternate WW2 skirmish?)
- Incursion (alternate WW2 skirmish)
- DUST Tactics (alternate WW2 skirmish)
- Firestorm Armada, Uncharted Seas, Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans (airships)
- Pulp City (comic-type skirmish)
- Wargods (WHFB-esque)
- Freebooter's Fate (skirmish)
- Brushfire (anthropomorphic animal skirmish)
- Nuclear Renaissance (skirmish?)
- Anima Tactics (anime skirmish)
- AE: WWII, AE: Bounty (alternate WW2 and sci-fi skirmish)
- Dark Age (sci-fi skirmish)
- Alkemy (fantasy [Asian] skirmish)
- CAV (Battletech-esque)
- Helldorado (fantasy/horror skirmish)
- Kings of War (WHFB-esque)
- SphereWars (skirmish? Spanish only)
- Nemesis (skirmish? Spanish only)
- Ron & Bones (pirate skirmish?)
- Warlands (post-apoc vehicles)
- Consortium (sci-fi skirmish)
- Spinespur (horror skirmish, some models NSFW)
- Twilight (fantasy skirmish)
- Bushido (fantasy [Asian] skirmish)

I am going to give it a whirl when my rulebook arrives but I am not sure what to expect. I guess for me its the familiar versus the unknown. As a gamer, I feel comfortable on safe, known and recognisable ground. PP is a big leap out into the wider world for me.

I'm not sure about womething: is it the miniatures that are turning you off, or the rules too?

Personally, I find their rules delightful, a breath of fresh air compared to the... stuff, GW foists on its players.

The models, however, I will admit are not exactly what I am looking for. But, then I look at GW's model lines, and with the notable exception of the Dark Eldar (and to a lesser extent, the Tau), I find GW's models pretty wretched as well. Oh, if only I could play with Warmachine's rules and Infinity's magnificent models!

I tried to get into Warmachine and Hordes both.

I have most of the early rulebooks(a limited edition of Apotheosis, no less) and had bought a couple of warbands.

But it just was...'meh'.

Far more excited about Infinity and was far more excited about Starship Troopers when it was supposedly doing well.

I have to confess the model aesthetic isn't particularly to my taste either but I am prepared to forgo that in the case of a good game.

Tastes are acquired. I don't think anyone KNEW they liked grimdark
until they realized there was this whole universe in which they could
play games. Same with Warmachine. I didn't know I wanted to
play games in the iron kingdoms' steam and fury powered fantasy
until I was sucked into the gameplay itself.

I had that issue when i started, but some of the models have grown on me.

If you dont mind me asking, what army did you start with ?

I play Legion and the infantry look Goofy but the warbeasts look amazing.

Looking at Retrubution, Cryx, the new Cygnar models and they all look rather nice in comparison to the infantry.

There are three components:

(1) Rules: GW's rules are serviceable and even preferable for someone like me, for whom tournament play with air-tight rulings is not a big deal. I feel like PP offers some very cool ideas but I feel the "combos" get even more cookie-cutter than 40k lists. I'm ambivalent about this issue, really.

(2) Models: I love (not like) the Citadel ranges on balance. By contrast, very few of PP's models do anything for me. I have never even been able to settle on collecting any faction over another. (The starter pack I bought was Skorne.)

(3) The Fluff: In my mind, GW wins hands down. It's not just a matter of having been around longer, either. The tone of the Iron Kingdoms just isn't to my taste as of yet.

malfred wrote:Tastes are acquired. I don't think anyone KNEW they liked grimdark
until they realized there was this whole universe in which they could
play games.

Honestly?
I liked the atmosphere of 40k and the models before I really 'got into it'. Warmachine I tried to play the game first in spite of not liking the setting/models that much.

Same with Warmachine. I didn't know I wanted to
play games in the iron kingdoms' steam and fury powered fantasy
until I was sucked into the gameplay itself.

I think we're at opposing ends.

But I dunno.

@malfred: Chicken or the egg. It varies from person to person. Nothing about PP's stuff makes me excited to play. In miniatures wargaming, you've got to have that first -- and that can mean having an enthusiastic buddy with two armies, of course. I have no such enthusiastic buddy with respect to Warmahordes. :(

I wanted to play 40k, but I liked the models more than the
gameplay. Grimdark just hasn't been for me.

Manchu wrote:@malfred: Chicken or the egg. It varies from person to person. Nothing about PP's stuff makes me excited to play. In miniatures wargaming, you've got to have that first -- and that can mean having an enthusiastic buddy with two armies, of course. I have no such enthusiastic buddy with respect to Warmahordes. :(

GW/40K is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy really. It gets the market share because it has the market share. 40K is so ubiquitous that invariably, most young gamers first exposure to wargaming is GW product and early lessons tend to stick.

Aesthetics are everything as they ARE immersion.

To people who liked the Warhammer universe; Privateer Press doesn't fit. A good example of mine is comparing both GW's Inquisition to Warmachine's Protectorate of Menoth. I play Inquisition in 40k. Thats the kind of 'style' I like. Menoth doesn't appeal to me; because it doesn't have that fearsome religious image. It just looks like Kingdom Hearts to me.

If I HAD to play; I'd have to play; The Retribution of Scyrah is the only thing I could possibly even consider to choose; and even then thats cause they look like a Nobody from Kingdom Hearts.

Rules, fluff are dime a dozen; but the models are what matters. I'm sticking with GW till I find someone that has a similar army; but is just as gritty as well.

Mr Hyena wrote:Aesthetics are everything as they ARE immersion.

To people who liked the Warhammer universe; Privateer Press doesn't fit. A good example of mine is comparing both GW's Inquisition to Warmachine's Protectorate of Menoth. I play Inquisition in 40k. Thats the kind of 'style' I like. Menoth doesn't appeal to me; because it doesn't have that fearsome religious image. It just looks like Kingdom Hearts.

If I HAD to play; I'd have to play; The Retribution of Scyrah is the only thing I could possibly even consider to choose; and even then thats cause they look like a Nobody from Kingdom Hearts.

Rules, fluff are dime a dozen; but the models are what matters.

In your opinion.

Gaming is such a multi-faceted experience that everyone has a different take on what matters for them. For some, modelling is key; others are only interested in competitive play.

Its sort of like people that compare every MMO to WoW. Even if something is better in many ways, or even better in every way- theyre not going to like it.

When you get down to it- many of GW's miniatures look goofy. Heck, look at where they started. RT and 2nd ed stuff is incredibly goofy. Their sculpting and casting techniques have evolved over 20 some years.

PP has been at it about half that long, and their new sculpts show significant improvement over their previous ones. Detail and proportion has improved, and in most cases they maintain a sense of cohesiveness amongst the several factions. They made the move, before GW, to use resin for many of their larger kits, possibly showing GW that it was/is possible to do resin on a commercial scale.

It seems kind of 'cart before horse' to put on the full dislike without even playing a game. But, that happens in life, no one says anything about someone who hates a certain type of car without ever having driven it Unless of course its some huge gas guzzler or lemon (Im looking at you GW!)

Its too bad you cant get into it, but at least theres some other options out there like Malifaux and Infinity that are also gaining alot of momentum and thier sculpts are very good- and of a differing style from most of the PP stuff ^_^

I've not had a chance to play WH but the mini's a are turn off. They just remind me of all of the clunky posed "red period" from WD/2nd Ed 40K.

I have bought the rules and played the games. One thing no one really mentions is how similar they are to GW.

New edition every four years, pretty pricy books for not a lot of content, Unbalanced issues, modular plastic kist for 50+ dollars, etc etc etc

To me it is neither a step down or up from GW just a lateral shift to another game that has different colors.

What really turns me off is the blandness of the IP. I can't really identify with the villans and the good guys aren't really that heroic. Just kinda middle of the line story akin ot what disney would come up with...generic.

My Problems with PP are as follows:

Minis: Calling them WOW knock offs is cruel and overly simplistic but does everything have to have a tiny waist and Huge shoulders? Also why is every scrap of armour filligreed and engraved to within an inch of it's life? Even The 'Oruboros' faction of woodland creatures has ridculously over ornate armour.

Conversions?: It seems more of a boardgame in this regard.

Universe: It seems pretty bland, with each faction/culture being an overly obvious Analogue. I mean the 40k imperium is space Rome right? Wrong, it has a huge variety of sources and is in someways pretty unique. Whereas PP's Khardovia.....

I still might just buy the rulebook as i have heard amazing things about the game.

Well- to further peoples enjoyment of thier preferred games...

For those of you with PP stuff you dont like or want- I have a bunch of GW I dont want! Id be happy to trade for some more goofy looking Warmachine stuff :p

Maybe rather than expressing dislike for something- lets just be happy that there are viable alternatives these days. AND not all of them involve buying from some extortionate overbearing company that tells us how to enjoy thier product, then charges a premium for that 'privilege'. And then they have the cheek to not even offer us a cup o' tea with that buggering!

Mistress of minis wrote:
Maybe rather than expressing dislike for something- lets just be happy that there are viable alternatives these days. AND not all of them involve buying from some extortionate overbearing company that tells us how to enjoy thier product, then charges a premium for that 'privilege'. And then they have the cheek to not even offer us a cup o' tea with that buggering!

I echo this emotion. Competition, whether you like it or not, is healthy for the community, the industry as a whole and for the individual companies concerned.

One thing that turns me off from PP is....the prices. People slag GW for being expensive, but PP will charge you $35-45 for 6 metal models.

I have to agree with the OP, Iäm waiting for the rule book to turn up....but so far, the models haven't "grabbed" me. They just look so, I don't know, clumbsy.....

The only reason I'm looking at Warmachine (as opposed to focusing 100% on Infinity and MERCS) is because I'm hoping to jump into a "mass market" game that I can throw down with new players in various locations....this isn't currently the case with MERCS and Infinity, so those games need promoting.

But, if I'm really honest (may my tongue burn for saying this) GW miniatures are nicer than PP....oh god help me, why....but it's true. :(

Not a fan of PP miniatures, haven't seen the rules.

Also, the prices don't seem much if any better than GW (per model, that is, I seem to remember reading you need less to play).

Infinity, however, has grabbed my attention and will be my next project...

Not to get too off-topic, but I think Malifaux stuff is even uglier than PP's worst models. I am totally perplexed whenever I hear people comment about how cool they are. The Infinity lines look decent but I think you'd have to be quite a painter to get decent mileage out of them. So neither of them are really alternatives to GW for me, just like PP is not. I do like some of UrbanMammoth's miniatures. They're not really a "whole package" like GW at the moment, however.

I'd also dispute that PP's models have shown significant improvement over time. In my eyes, they're very hit or miss.

Manchu wrote:Not to get too off-topic, but I think Malifaux stuff is even uglier than PP's worst models.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Finally someone else says this.

First she says

Maybe rather than expressing dislike for something- lets just be happy that there are viable alternatives these days.

And then she says:

AND not all of them involve buying from some extortionate overbearing company that tells us how to enjoy thier product, then charges a premium for that 'privilege'. And then they have the cheek to not even offer us a cup o' tea with that buggering!

In all honesty, PP gets a boost because many (of course not all) of their diehard fans are not only very vocal about how awesome Warmahordes is; they're also very, very vocal about how gakky GW is. Conversely, people who love GW do not as a necessity mention how gakky PP is every time they bring up their fondness for GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Perkustin wrote:

Manchu wrote:Not to get too off-topic, but I think Malifaux stuff is even uglier than PP's worst models.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Finally someone else says this.

Glad to see it wasn't just me awkwardly nodding in conversations about Malifaux!

Over a year ago, I made the switch from 40k to Warmahordes, as I feel it's very unhealthy to support a company like GW, but found that PP isn't really the answer. It seems to me that everything they do piggy backing a little off of GW, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like their entire marketing strategy was, "let's add just a dash of Warhammer to our systems to try and lure people away from the successful company" and I think as each new release comes out Warmahordes becomes closer to 40k. Hell,l even the names and logos are similar.

Philosophical reasons aside, their models are hit or miss, there's very little variety in the ruleset (lets face it, every game is a Caster Kill scenario), and the fluff is terrible. Why the hell would you name one of your factions Circle Orboros? I believe the word you're looking for is Ouroboros.

Recently I've shifted all of my attention toward Malifaux. Cheaper game all around, beautiful sculpts, cool fluff, and an absolutely insane amount of game play depth in one of the most elegant rule systems I've ever encountered.

Manchu wrote:Not to get too off-topic, but I think Malifaux stuff is even uglier than PP's worst models. I am totally perplexed whenever I hear people comment about how cool they are. The Infinity lines look decent but I think you'd have to be quite a painter to get decent mileage out of them. So neither of them are really alternatives to GW for me, just like PP is not. I do like some of UrbanMammoth's miniatures. They're not really a "whole package" like GW at the moment, however.

I'd also dispute that PP's models have shown significant improvement over time. In my eyes, they're very hit or miss.

Malifaux has some really nice models that I happen to like a lot. However,
the world is steeped in horror, so a lot of their stuff looks unlike what you'd
expect your "heroes" to look like.

No, I'm not saying they aren't heroic-looking. I'm saying I think they are poorly sculpted models.

As a Warmahordes player myself, all I can say is: that's fine.