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2013/04/28 16:16:01
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
Game #3 - 1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Pinkstar Daemons
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead, I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
Coteaz - Prescience, Forewarning
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (Re-roll Invuln's, Hellfire Gaze), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Foreboding, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Forewarning, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Misfortune, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Forewarning, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Foreboding, Prescience, Flickering Fire
This battle is a little harder to predict. Tzeentch shooting vs grey knight resiliency....I think I will give daemons the slight edge in this one. Why? Because of the lack of mobility of the grey knights. Also, the grey knights have 2 huge threats to face but they can only handle 1 at a time. It could actually go either ways depending on the Grimoire. It the Grimoire fails even once, grey knights can potentially take it as their shooting will be devastating to a unit with 6++ only (or 5++ after Forewarning). However, if it goes off, well, have fun trying to kill anything with re-rollable 2++'s.
Also, assault by the LoC is a huge problem as well. Without a warding stave in the paladinstar, grey knights most likely will lose the battle if they have to fight a LoC with re-rollable 2++'s. They do have 3++ due to Forewarning and Nemesis Force Swords in assault, however, the LoC will be getting re-roll's to hit and to wound (due to Precognition) with his S8 insta-killing staff. IMO, paladins will only be able to win this battle if the Grimoire fails on the LoC.
Finally, daemons have got some excellent psychic powers. Actually, both units do. For my 3rd straight game, my LoC has gotten Precognition. Wow! That is the best possible Divination power he could get! Both armies have Forewarning, which is absolutely crucial to their survivals. Daemons have one more ace up their sleeves - Misfortune. I predict that this power will make a huge difference in the game. If paladins need to Deny anything, it would be Misfortune. Otherwise, if it goes through more than once, I think the paladins will be in serious trouble.
The knights cast their psychic powers (they would do this every turn).
As I deployed them (daemons) out of the threat range of the paladins, they decide to run instead. They gain much ground with a 6" scout move, a 6" normal move and then a 6" run.
Pinkstar 1
Daemons cast their powers. LoC is a stud with re-rolls on everything, including his 2++ Grimoire-enhanced saves.
Horrors, on the other hand, fail to cast 3 times and suffer 2 Perils! They fail to Misfortune the paladins and fail to cast Forewarning on themselves, as well as one of their attempts at Prescience (the 2nd Prescience attempt did go off). The Herald with the Grimoire and a normal Herald both takes 1W!
The LoC has no fear and swoops directly in front of the paladins.
The Herald then drops off the Portaglyph, which scatters towards the paladins.
It then spawns 2 horrors and now I've completely blocked off the paladins from reaching my big block of horrors.
Warpstorm does nothing. It would continue to not really do anything throughout the game.
Even without Misfortune, shooting is good for the daemons. They manage to kill 1 hammer, 1 sword and 1 halberd paladin. They also put 1W on the banner and 2W on the Grandmaster. Wow! That is 9W that they inflicted! Way above average, considering that the Heralds spent a total of 5 Warp Charges in the casting of other psychic powers. Paladins fail to deny any psychic powers at all!!!
On the bright side, they pass their toughness test due to Warpflame from Tzeentch shooting to receive a 6+ FNP.
But much, much more importantly, the Grimoire Herald dies to a 2nd Perils!!!
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 323, Grey Knights: 210
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 2
Paladins move up.
I'm in somewhat of a pickle. I've got 3 options:
1. My initial thought was to try to ground the LoC and then triple-assault the LoC, Portaglyph and unit of 2 horrors. However, you are looking at a 1 in 3 chance of grounding him and with re-rollable 2++, I'm not even sure I could get a wound through. Moreover, if he doesn't fall, then that means I don't get to charge anything at all!
2. I could go after just the Portaglyph and unit of 2 horrors. However, that would be a wasted turn and is exactly what daemons are hoping for. Killing those two basically buys daemons another turn of shooting - possibly with Misfortune - before the inevitable assault by the LoC. Also, I'd have to waste 1 turn of shooting because I need to assault and any shooting will most likely wipe out my target!
3. I could just shoot at the Pinkstar and try to do as much damage as I could. Then next turn, let his LoC with only a re-rollable 4++ save charge (thank goodness the Grimoire died).
I decide to go with what I felt was the least risky thing to do, option #3.
Shooting only kills 8 horrors. I actually make a mistake here as I thought they had Forewarning on. But while writing the report, I realized that they had failed to cast Forewarning on themselves. This means that the Pinkstar should have lost another 3-4 horrors.
Score (VP's) - Daemons: 323, Grey Knights: 282
Pinkstar 2
This turn may be painful for the paladins. Horrors manage to get Misfortune off! They move back slightly.
The LoC glides to where Coteaz is.
Portaglyph spawns another 2 horrors, who continue to block off the paladins.
With Misfortune, shooting is utterly devastating. Coteaz fails to Look-Out-Sir Hellfire Gaze from the LoC. He manages to pass his 4++ Forewarning save the first time....but then fails it on the 2nd try due to Misfortune.
The rest of the shooting kills 3 more paladins and put 1W on a hammerdin, even after the paladins manage to Deny the shooting of the 2 smallish horror units.
Misfortune really did a number on them. That's 10W the daemons did to 2+ save models through sheer volume, Misfortune and 1 insta-kill by the Hellfire Gaze.
I then assault with all 3 units. Overwatch wipes out 1 unit of 2 horrors who assaulted first.
With horrors in combat as well, 2 of the paladins, including 1 hammer, will not get to strike at the LoC. Therefore, the Grandmaster challenges the LoC to try to minimize the damage.
Paladins do manage to win combat by 1 at the expense of their leader. However, the LoC would pass its Daemonic Instability test.
Wow. I did not expect this. I was expecting a much closer battle. This just shows how devastating the Pinkstar shooting can be. Even with all the failed psychic powers and Perils - meaning less shots by the Heralds - they were still able to inflict this much damage with their shooting. Of course Misfortune played a large role in this game. Kind of makes you wonder what could have happend between the Pinkstar and Farsight Tau had the Pinkstar really been able to mount some offense against them.
I have to put some of the blame for the lopsided victory, however, on the dice of the paladins. I felt bad for their poor rolling. On Turn 1, they couldn't deny a single Flickering Fire attempt, even with a 4+ Deny against the Horrors (and 5+ against the Heralds). Also, on Turn 1, their saves were abysmal, even without Misfortune on them. Even before Misfortune, they were rolling below-average on their saves.
Finally, I think I played the paladins a little too aggressively. You look at the nature of the grey knights - a very good assault unit with force weapons and Prescience/Prefered Enemy - and your natural and first instincts is that you want to get them into combat as quickly as possible, especially against a non-assault unit like the Pinkstar. However - and keep in mind this is with hindsight - looking back at the game, I now would have changed my strategy completely. I should have bided my time (for the knights) and let the LoC come to the knights instead. Also let the horrors come to them instead. This way, the knights will most likely get the first turn of shooting. Then you wait for the opportunity - it's bound to happen once or maybe even twice in the game on average - for the Grimoire to fail. That is when the knights should have pounced.
The Pinkstar is formidable indeed. I just may have to have a rematch between them and Tau.
Game #4 - 1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights vs Seer Council Deldar
For the next 3 battles, I played against my friend and local Deldar expert, Grant (aka SonsofGrant here on dakka). His seer council is much feared in our area. So far I have played against them 4 times and I can honestly say that I hate Eldar, I hate Rues of Warding and I hate the seer council.
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
Coteaz - Foreboding, Misfortune
Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)
Both armies got Misfortune, which is a frightening power. Misfortune is just what the knights needed to counter-act Eldar Fortune. Misfortune is also useful for Eldar to get through paladin 2+ saves. This is going to be a tough matchup for Eldar. They definitely have the mobility advantage. However, the knights will out-shoot and out-assault the space elves. Eldar can play the JSJ game - jump shoot jump. However, unlike Tau, their firepower just isn't all that scary, at least not to paladins. And should they roll low for their Assault jump move, they just may be in trouble. It'll be interesting to see how Eldar fights through what is potentially a bad matchup for them.
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts (3+ Armour, +1W, It Will Not Die!), 1x Lesser Gift (Staff of Change) - Precognition, Misfortune, Flickering Fire (Warlord)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names) - Foreboding, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph) - Perfect Timing, Forewarning, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration - Perfect Timing, Prescience, Flickering Fire Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3 - Precognition, Prescience, Flickering Fire
This could potentially be a bad matchup for Daemons. Runes of Warding (RoW) alone is enough to really throw a monkey wrench into their plans. The game will probably come down to how often daemons fail their psychic tests due to Runes. If they can pass the majority of them....as well as get passed 4+/5+ Deny saves by Eldar....then they can win this. If not, then Deldar will probably take it.
Deldar got some good powers. Fortunately, daemons got 2 Perfect Timing to counter Invisibility. For the 4th straight game, I got Precognition on the LoC but no 4+ FNP. He may be a problem for Deldar as they only have a 1 in 3 chance to ground him and if they don't deal with him, the LoC can really hurt Deldar with Misfortune. Otherwise, with Fortune up, they may be able to weather horror shooting, especially since psychic shooting is not very reliable against RoW eldar with 4+/5+ Deny's. All in all, I think the seer council will have a slight advantage in this game. Who knows, maybe this game may be the only game so far where a deathstar doesn't get tabled.
Deldar turbo-boosts behind the LOS-blocking ruins. Of course, they cast their psychic powers first.
Daemons 1
Daemons shift around a little bit. One Herald (the Portaglyph) suffers Perils while trying to cast a spell.
Big Bird flies on top of the ruins. He also takes 1W from Perils while trying unsuccesfully to cast Precognition. The Grimoire goes off on the LoC but Forewarning fails to do so.
They drop off the Portaglyph. It fails to bring in reinforcements.
The Warpstorm does nothing. 1 horror dies to Perils while trying to cast Flickering Fire.
In the Shooting phase, Big Bird's shooting gets Denied.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 84, Daemons: 0
At the end of the turn, the LoC gains back his Wound due to It Will Not Die!
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Deldar 2
Deldar casts Invisibility and Fortune. Maybe Doom as well, but I may have denied it.
Instead of going after my horrors, my opponent decides to go after my LoC. That is a risky play on his part. There is only a 1 in 3 chance for him to ground my LoC in order to assault.
Shooting fails to hurt my LoC....but manages to ground him!
He then assaults. I forget to issue a challenge.
3+ armour just isn't good enough. I need the re-roll's of Precognition. Due to Invisibility and Fortune, I fail to hurt any of his guys while his guys take down my Warlord.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 389, Daemons: 0
Daemons 2
Well, that didn't turn out so well.
My Portaglyph Herald dies while trying to cast a psychic power. Another Herald Perils as well. I do manage to cast Perfect Timinig on the seer council.
At least I get the Grimoire to go off for 3++ Invuln's.
He then dies as well while trying to cast Flickering Fire! Everyone else, however, does manage to cast Flickering Fire, though I believe my opponent denies the horrors.
His saves are smoking red-hot. I put a lot of wounds into the unit but he only loses 2 warlocks.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 512, Daemons: 100
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Deldar 3
The seer council goes in for the kill.
Shooting doesn't do much so we go straight into combat. He multi-charges the Portaglyph and unit.
He fails to hurt the unit but manages to destroy the Portaglyph. Daemonic Instability then kills off another 2 horrors.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 530, Daemons: 100
Daemons 3
The Grimoire goes off. One of my Heralds takes 1W while trying to cast a Prescience, though the other one does manage to cast it successfully.
In combat, I fail to do anything to the seer council and they manage to kill 3 horrors. He also manages to put 1W on my Grimoire Herald through Precision Strikes. I then lose another 3 to Daemonic Instability.
The seer council then Hit-&-Runs out of combat.
Score (VP's) - Deldar: 659, Daemons: 100
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Deldar 4
The seer council repositions themselves to inflict maximum destructor damage.
He shoots down 4 horrors....
....and then re-assaults me.
He allocates all Precision Strikes on my Heralds but I Look-Out-Sir all of them. He wipes out all of my Heralds.
I need to roll snake-eyes (1, 1) on my Leadership or I am done. Miraculously, I do.
What I forgot, however, was that Insane Courage (passing LD on snake-eyes) should have resurrected all the horrors he killed that turn.
Well, that game went pretty well....for Deldar. The seer council did what they needed to do and took care of business. He was fortunate to ground my LoC and without the re-roll's from Precognition, my Warlord just died to sheer volume. He then had 1 hot streak of saves against my horror shooting and that was all she wrote. I couldn't do anything to them in combat, at least not with Fortune on.
Runes of Warding, as I suspected, played a huge role in this game. It basically put a wound on almost all my psykers, even managing to kill off 1 Herald. More importantly, it denied me the chance to use some of my psychic powers as well as reduced the number of shots from my Heralds.
If they had to fight again, I still think the Pinkstar has got a shot against the seer council. They're just going to have to do it without the help of a lot of their psychic powers. Fortunately, there will be redundancy of powers with 5 Lvl 3 psykers in the army.
This message was edited 18 times. Last update was at 2013/05/04 15:01:52
Wow, the dice gods were definitely pulling for the daemons this time. The daemons were really fortunate to ge their favorite powers, or this game might have been really close
Also noticed something that the marine player could have done T2: cruise land raider in between LoC & pinkstar; disembark termies + vulkan and servin; and let one quad-las & TLHB shoot the pinkstar, PotMS with other Quad-las at LoC, then assault termies w/ vulkan & servin at pinkstar. That might have wiped that group out early on and he'd still have an intact land raider to take more shots at LoC or shield the hammerstar from the LoC.
With all that, I believe that he could have tried to utilize his potent shooting in the SAT, and try for an earlier assault and try to screen the LoC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/28 16:50:43
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
2013/04/28 16:55:54
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 + Bonus Deathmatch up on p.4)
Highly improbable. You cannot disembark if you move more than 6". So move 6", disembark 6" and now you're looking at about a 9" charge possibly. It would be risky because if you fail the charge, you are looking at a crapload of firepower coming your way and probably Misfortune as well.
But the key to a Space Marine victory is to multi-charge both units and let Daemonic Instability take care of the rest. That was what I wanted to pull off. I was thinking that the Spartan (with 5 Hull Points!) would be durable enough to survive the assault by the LoC. Then next turn, disembark and multi-assault, but not before the Spartan shoots up a grounded LoC with only a 3+/5++ save due to the Grimoire.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/28 17:32:46
jy2 wrote:Moreover, his 2++ can come in quite handy. Put him in the front and he will tank any and all AP1/2 shots while passing small-arms fire to the rest of the unit. Concerned about him getting insta-killed? Not with Iron Arm on. Finally, he can still cast most of the Space Marine powers, including Null Zone.
Just want to say, he can't have table powers AND SM powers. One or the other. Still gives him a lot of strategy since he gets a full tree of powers.
felixcat wrote: I know I'm entering this topic a little late but how did you infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun ... this cannort be done. You could DS in turn two beside the deathstar but he cannot infiltrate with the group regardless of who is the warlord.
When we play the deathstar is it common to see Shadowsun infiltrating and the Farsight DSing with a riptide turn two with AGL/Comm help. Farsight can then either join the deathstar or stay put with the riptide.
The rule for infiltrating ICs is if a non-infiltrating IC joins a unit of infiltrators, they can't infiltrate. However, if an infiltrating IC join a non-infiltrator unit, they can infiltrate.
2013/04/28 17:23:13
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 + Bonus Deathmatch up on p.4)
HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 365 pts)
1 Daemon Prince (HQ) [CSM], 365 pts = (Power Armour + Wings + Increase Mastery Level x3 + Daemon of Tzeentch + Gift of Mutation + Spell Familiar)
1 The Black Mace [Chaos]
With the daemon prince rolling biomancy this could be a funny list with everything possibly being T8 or higher.. .lol
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
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"An Independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."
Ypou have a choice DS farsight with deathstar and infiltrate shadowsun or infiltrate shadowsun with deathstar and DS farsight close by ... however, farsight can at the earliest join the deathstar turn three that way.
2013/04/28 19:21:22
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 + Bonus Deathmatch up on p.4)
Personnaly the other daemon deathstar, the one I use, is
Daemon prince, mark of tzeentch, ml2 (both on biomancy) 2 greater 1 lesser, wings and armour 990pts
I think they will give most deathstars a run for their money!
GUO, I just find too slow, in a vacuum maybe (smaller board) but in a 6x4 I think he is too slow to do much good past protecting slay the warlord point (which he is VERY good at!)
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2013/04/28 20:23:01
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 + Bonus Deathmatch up on p.4)
I don't really like calling the demons a deathstar though. I mean, you have the one big unit with 4 heralds but I kind of think its cheating to have the LOC slapped on as well as he isn't really part of the deathstar. Other wise any demon composition can be made into a "deathstar" by bringing a GD. A true deathstar would be more like a huge unit of fiends with 4 slannesh heralds on seeker joined to them. Grimoire and greater aether blades and the locus of beguilement. Then all max PM levels.
Are you going for Deathstars or 1000 point lists that use expensive things? I seems as though lots of the ideas posted by people aren't really "deathstars."
I tend to think you should limit to single units and possibly attached transports.
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2013/04/28 20:27:11
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 + Bonus Deathmatch up on p.4)
"An Independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."
Ypou have a choice DS farsight with deathstar and infiltrate shadowsun or infiltrate shadowsun with deathstar and DS farsight close by ... however, farsight can at the earliest join the deathstar turn three that way.
Also read IC and note you join them to a unit DURING that units deployment meaning if you choose to infiltrate shadowsun she deploys after the bodyguard (or any other none infiltrating unit for that matter) and cannot infiltrate the unit with her as infiltrate is a special deployment and in order for her to join a unit she has to deploy when they do. This is why they didn't need to put the reverse note in the infiltrate section, because IC deployment already prevents it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JGrand wrote: Are you going for Deathstars or 1000 point lists that use expensive things? I seems as though lots of the ideas posted by people aren't really "deathstars."
I tend to think you should limit to single units and possibly attached transports.
This was my concern as well. Its becoming less about deathstars and more about combos. Still cool but note that every race can't make a true deathstar while others excel at them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/28 20:28:34
I'm not sure of that but since this is not a rules topic I'll let it go. Going second it is better DSing the lot anyway and you can always infiltrate shadowsun with a riotide turn one and later join up to the deathstar turn two. Regardless ... in the batrep you cannot deploy as shown.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/28 20:50:11
phantommaster wrote: I was thinking about this myself, going to the unusual routes, SM and BA Bikers generally, but I came to this:
Lucius
Lvl 3 Slaaneshi Termie Sorceror: Power Axe, Force Staff, Spell Familiar, 4++, VotLW
20 Noise Marines: 2 Blast Masters, 17 Sonic Blasters, all CCW's, Icon, Champion has Doom Siren and PF/LC, VotLW
Just under 1000pts
Lots of models and FNP, I5 for combats, 3 Champs for challenges, slow but heavy shooting to whittle down enemies, Sorceror boosts all Sonic Weapons. Combat is reasonable but won't stand to Paladins.
There are several issues with this deathstar which keeps it from being an actual deathstar.
1. Its strength is its shooting. However, it can't move and still fire salvo shots (unless the Sorcerer gets Endurance for Relentless). Thus, you move and now your shooting is much less effective. Also, they've got no re-roll's to hit.
2. Lack of mobility. Move and your offense suffers.
3. Lack of resiliency. 5+ FNP on top of 3+ guys isn't really all that good. The sorceror with only 2W and only a 2+/4++ isn't ideal in tanking incoming shots, though he will help a little. As long as he loses his first Wound, however, you don't want him tanking shots any longer.
4. Lack of assault. Honestly, normal marines fight like crap. With hardly any power weapons/fists and no re-roll's to hit, they're going to be on the losing end every time against assault deathstars. Also, once Lucious gets killed in combat (and he will), the whole unit is in danger of being swept.
MarkyMark wrote: The model has a axe anyway Ace, so no issue there!. I have the model just never used his rules
Yep you are right Jy2, as long as you pass the grimoure test you are fine!, if not you are screwed.
Used LoC tonight, had the insta kill warlord trait took out 3 wraiths then DP swept the destroyer lord, then insta killed two spyders and DP insta killed 6 scarab bases and another lord was swept,
In second game against a farsight bomb, they killed 6 horrors as I went to ground for 3 cover then LoC flew over, took all the shooting not losing a wound, took one wound on overwatch (thanks to 4 plus FNP) then challenged and insta killed farsight and swept the unit. The staff of change blowing up characters is also fun!. Yes he is a beast, just the force weapons worry me a lot! Hopefully your grimoure rolls are good
When he's on (the LoC), he is ridiculously good. However, when he's off (don't get the right powers, failed Grimoire, wrong gifts), then he can still perform....you just need to play him very conservatively. I've had games where he's been an absolute beast. I've also had games where he's gotten shot down before actually being able to do much. But that's just the nature of chaos. Force weapons are worrisome, however, what MC has the potential to wipe out an entire unit of paladins all by himself? I'd say the LoC is one of the few who can.
Dozer Blades wrote: This thread is like a reverse look at fifth edition by way of genuflecting. Deathstars can't cut the mustard anymore. I would rather see Batreps showcasing cutting edge armies. It really doesn't matter which deathstar is the best.
I'd have to disagree. If anything, 6th has made deathstars more dominant. Now some of the better deathstars in the game (besides Draigowing) involves allies - the Dark Harliestar, Seer Council deldar and IG blobs with Space Marine characters just to name a few. However, nothing's really changed much since 5th. Deathstars have gotten better due to allies....but then again, so have balanced armies due to allies. Deathstars do have a place in this edition. Just like MSU, deathstars are still strong. However, with the advent of allies, now almost every army has gotten stronger as well so that things are more or less the same in 6th as they were in 5th.
Damn, just played against Sevrin -head Loth last night. Lol. He was in a 50-man blob squad.
Only had 1 S8 shooting in my army - soulgrinder phelgm - which I shot at his blob squad (with Sevrin in front). He failed all but 1 Look-Out-Sirs and then proceeded to roll a for his 2++ Invuln save. Splat.
Damn, you can get 10 biker units? I like it! I will add this to the Deathstars Under Consideration list.
You can, and conga-line them into CC. Not entirely sure why he put Sevrin in the front really, since he becomes majority T3 and then all he has is a 2+ save, which he is LOS ing. Surely the point of the blob is to protect him Or was it Ordnance?
I think RW are a dark horse here because people seriously underestimate Hit and Run. They have the mobility and assault potential to catch the shooty Deathstars and the mobility and guns to kite, shoot, and counter-charge the assault deathstars, and then hit and run out to do it all over again. They do hugely hinge on Invisibility though, I have no idea what BKs are like without it (I've rolled invisibility in every game for the past 17 games... what) and are not as durable having only 1w each. Blind is also a surprise, although I have no idea how it works in multiple initiative units. Does it test on majority or what?
It might be worth it to take 2 Librarians with PFGs instead of Azrael, because Invisibility is that important.
Sevrin was near the front (there were still some guys in front of him) in order to get the best possible range (and to get LOS) to cast some of his powers (Enfeeble on my scouting Khorne-dogs). We were playing 2v2 and he had Tau allies with 2 riptides and their S6 burst cannons. We then shot down all those guys until Sevrin was the first guy in front when my teammate's soulgrinder fired his phlegm.
As an opponent, I hate to play against Hit & Run. Against those units, I just try to shoot them down. I've never really used Blind as well so I can't say for sure how that works.
"An Independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."
Ypou have a choice DS farsight with deathstar and infiltrate shadowsun or infiltrate shadowsun with deathstar and DS farsight close by ... however, farsight can at the earliest join the deathstar turn three that way.
Also read IC and note you join them to a unit DURING that units deployment meaning if you choose to infiltrate shadowsun she deploys after the bodyguard (or any other none infiltrating unit for that matter) and cannot infiltrate the unit with her as infiltrate is a special deployment and in order for her to join a unit she has to deploy when they do. This is why they didn't need to put the reverse note in the infiltrate section, because IC deployment already prevents it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JGrand wrote: Are you going for Deathstars or 1000 point lists that use expensive things? I seems as though lots of the ideas posted by people aren't really "deathstars."
I tend to think you should limit to single units and possibly attached transports.
This was my concern as well. Its becoming less about deathstars and more about combos. Still cool but note that every race can't make a true deathstar while others excel at them.
Fine... a fluffy Deathstar:
Bad Company
20 Death Company, 1000 pts
1 Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, 150 pts
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
Total roster cost: 1000pts
You can drop some of the weapons and mix them around as you see fit. You can also drop all of the weapons and bump their numbers. Either way I would not want to see this deathstar barreling down on me.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/28 21:30:01
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 365 pts)
1 Daemon Prince (HQ) [CSM], 365 pts = (Power Armour + Wings + Increase Mastery Level x3 + Daemon of Tzeentch + Gift of Mutation + Spell Familiar)
1 The Black Mace [Chaos]
With the daemon prince rolling biomancy this could be a funny list with everything possibly being T8 or higher.. .lol
GUO's are a little too slow for my taste....hell, who am I kidding. They suck! They can't even run and have very little shooting. Sorry, that's my honest opinion of the GUO. Moreover, if you want to do well with Chaos Daemon MC's, you have to take a chance on the Grimoire. I like the Black Mace CSM, but he can't beat a deathstar all by himself. He needs some other fast guys alongside of him to give a little help.
Red Corsair wrote: I don't really like calling the demons a deathstar though. I mean, you have the one big unit with 4 heralds but I kind of think its cheating to have the LOC slapped on as well as he isn't really part of the deathstar. Other wise any demon composition can be made into a "deathstar" by bringing a GD. A true deathstar would be more like a huge unit of fiends with 4 slannesh heralds on seeker joined to them. Grimoire and greater aether blades and the locus of beguilement. Then all max PM levels.
The Pinkstar is more of a mini-star. I just added the LoC to get them up to 1K to compete against the other "true" deathstars. I really wanted to see what the Pinkstar could do.
JGrand wrote: Are you going for Deathstars or 1000 point lists that use expensive things? I seems as though lots of the ideas posted by people aren't really "deathstars."
I tend to think you should limit to single units and possibly attached transports.
I prefer true deathstars or deathstars that can get as close to the 1K mark as possible for this experiment. The Pinkstar goes up to 695 pts, but I feel that it is potent enough to compete against the "big guys". It's offense (shooting) is on the level of a true deathstar and its resiliency is just as great. I just threw in the LoC, which actually makes for an excellent complementary unit, to make the fights more fair.
The DC one is pretty mean!, 22 wounds so on par with dragio, and a 3plus and 5 FNP so a little worse then 2plus
You could go 30 of em, non JP's though, 7 with bolters powerfists, 5 with infernus pistols CCW and 18 with BPCCW and lemartes, thats 115 WS5 str 5 attacks on charge, rerolling to hit and to wound, and 28 ws5 str 9 attacks re rolling again.
Their issue is though with being charged, really nullifes them! Saying this makes me want to do a death company army again!
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/ 06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final
2013/04/28 21:40:03
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 + Bonus Deathmatch up on p.4)
MarkyMark wrote: The DC one is pretty mean!, 22 wounds so on par with dragio, and a 3plus and 5 FNP so a little worse then 2plus
You could go 30 of em, non JP's though, 7 with bolters powerfists, 5 with infernus pistols CCW and 18 with BPCCW and lemartes, thats 115 WS5 str 5 attacks on charge, rerolling to hit and to wound, and 28 ws5 str 9 attacks re rolling again.
Their issue is though with being charged, really nullifes them! Saying this makes me want to do a death company army again!
That is why the jump packs are in there as that helps with them being able to get the charge. In addition, it helps with mobility as they need to get to the enemy fast.
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
That's the problem with the Pinkstar, they get utterly shafted if you go second or fail your grimoire against things that are as shooty as you.
Farsight bomb seems a tad more scary than I thought it was, although you can't infiltrate the unit with Shadowsun.
In the second game, I don't think multi-charging was the right thing to do. The only threat to the Hammerstar was the LoC, as he didn't have the grimoire save that turn they should have just charged him and killed him.
They'd then be able to whittle down the Pinkstar in assault and wait for a failed grimoire roll (I doubt the horrors do much dmg in cc...)
Also, Sevrin Loth can't have Telepathy, or roll on different disciplines. He has to take 6 powers from a single discipline, which is restricted to Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis, and may not have different powers from each one.
"Loth may either use Smite, Force Dome, Machine Curse, The Avenger,
Quickening, Null Zone and Vortex of Doom (see page 57 of the Space
Marine Codex), or generate six powers from a single discipline chosen
from the following: (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, page 418): Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis."
Blind makes a unit test on Initiative, if it fails it shoots at BS 1 and WS 1 until the start of the next game turn, although I'm not sure how it works on mixed-initiative units like the Farsight bomb.
Lurker wrote: So I checked the wording on the Eldar Codex. It is definitely a MAY for the warlock powers.
So the original squad can be fielded without issue.
check page 27, it states "Each Warlock is a psyker and MUST be given a single warlock power at the points cost listed in the army list."
So no each Warlock has to take a Warlock power
Which print run of the codex do you have? I was just in the store and it clearly said 'MAY' on Page 60 in the actual army list entry. I didn't look at page 27 while I was in the store though...
So not sure which is which and it's always been an issue. I won't be near a game store anytime soon but it would be interesting if anyone is to see what the most up-to-date ruling is on this (well, at least for the next month that it actually matters until the new dex is released...).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/28 23:01:11
'Anyone can win, but it takes a good man to lose.'
-Louis Guzman
2013/04/28 23:23:30
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 + Bonus Deathmatch up on p.4)
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: That's the problem with the Pinkstar, they get utterly shafted if you go second or fail your grimoire against things that are as shooty as you.
Farsight bomb seems a tad more scary than I thought it was, although you can't infiltrate the unit with Shadowsun.
In the second game, I don't think multi-charging was the right thing to do. The only threat to the Hammerstar was the LoC, as he didn't have the grimoire save that turn they should have just charged him and killed him.
They'd then be able to whittle down the Pinkstar in assault and wait for a failed grimoire roll (I doubt the horrors do much dmg in cc...)
Also, Sevrin Loth can't have Telepathy, or roll on different disciplines. He has to take 6 powers from a single discipline, which is restricted to Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis, and may not have different powers from each one.
"Loth may either use Smite, Force Dome, Machine Curse, The Avenger,
Quickening, Null Zone and Vortex of Doom (see page 57 of the Space
Marine Codex), or generate six powers from a single discipline chosen
from the following: (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, page 418): Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis."
Blind makes a unit test on Initiative, if it fails it shoots at BS 1 and WS 1 until the start of the next game turn, although I'm not sure how it works on mixed-initiative units like the Farsight bomb.
Yeah, they do have that drawback. But I don't mind losing a few horrors. They're only 9-pts each. If you really have to, deploy in area terrain and then go-to-ground (assuming your opponent cannot remove your cover). What choice do you have? Even Draigowing has this problem. If Tau goes first against them, they're probably going to lose a few guys to plasmas and meltas.
The Farsight-bomb is really good IMO. Although I didn't really mention it, my prediction before any of these games were played was that Tau would be the favorite to win this tournament (now there....I've mentioned it. ).
I actually thought about just assaulting the LoC while ignoring the horrors but decided against it because:
1) The terminators were basically surrounded. Their movement were severely hampered. Assaulting the LoC meant that some of the guys wouldn't be able to pile-in and fight due to the horrors around them. Thus, I lose some attacks.
2) The LoC could challenge one of the characters to take him out of the picture.
3) I was concerned about over-killing the LoC. Then next turn, the terminators would be open to Misfortune and a devastating shooting turn from the horrors. I was really more concerned about Tzeentch shooting than assault.
4) And if the terminators didn't kill the LoC, next turn you are looking at a potential re-rollable 2++ FMC. That is an auto-win for daemons. They've already got the LR Spartan. The LoC would just be slowly killing terminators in combat all game.
Both strategies had some risks. I just felt that trying to beat daemons through Daemonic Instability was the better play.
20 Death Company, 1000 pts
1 Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, 150 pts
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 50 pts = (Jump Pack + Infernus Pistol)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 60 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack + Power Fist)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
1 Death Company, 35 pts = (Jump Pack)
Total roster cost: 1000pts
You can drop some of the weapons and mix them around as you see fit. You can also drop all of the weapons and bump their numbers. Either way I would not want to see this deathstar barreling down on me.
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/28 23:25:45
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
For sure. Speak for yourself on the resiliency. They are T4 plague marines that hit like a truck. You can also trade the infernus pistols for plasma but the infernus dont overheat and help against MW models. Just from the 5 PF alone that is 20 Re-roll to hits and wounds. Enough to kill off the paladin squad easily.
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
For sure. Speak for yourself on the resiliency. They are T4 plague marines that hit like a truck. You can also trade the infernus pistols for plasma but the infernus dont overheat and help against MW models. Just from the 5 PF alone that is 20 Re-roll to hits and wounds. Enough to kill off the paladin squad easily.
But paladins could play the range game and whittle them down with psycannon fire for a few turns. Force weapons will ignore fnp, and halberds will strike first, but yes. It would be very close and is quite a formidible deathstar. Also the paladins will be re-rolling to hit from presience, and the gm can cast hammerhand for making wounds easier.
2013/04/29 04:44:35
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 + Bonus Deathmatch up on p.4)
That likes like a darn fun deathstar to play. They don't really have good resiliency. However, they've got the hitting power. Rage gives them +2A on the charge and Lemartes lets them re-roll all hits and all wounds. They've also got some mobility. Ok, 2 out of 3. I'll put them in my Deathstars Under Consideration list.
For sure. Speak for yourself on the resiliency. They are T4 plague marines that hit like a truck. You can also trade the infernus pistols for plasma but the infernus dont overheat and help against MW models. Just from the 5 PF alone that is 20 Re-roll to hits and wounds. Enough to kill off the paladin squad easily.
But paladins could play the range game and whittle them down with psycannon fire for a few turns. Force weapons will ignore fnp, and halberds will strike first, but yes. It would be very close and is quite a formidible deathstar. Also the paladins will be re-rolling to hit from presience, and the gm can cast hammerhand for making wounds easier.
Who brings that many halberds on palidins though? I dont think they will kite them around for too long, besides you could always add a blood angel libby to the bomb for shield of sanguinius or forwarning if he rolls it. With jump packs and run rolls the palidins won't be shooting more then twice with there 24" range. I actually really like that death company bomb
Everyone else, however, does manage to cast Flickering Fire, though I believe my opponent denies the horrors.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
-head Loth last night. 
for his 2++ Invuln save. Splat. 
Or was it Ordnance?
10,000+
Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing
Color Scheme
Cratfworld Alaitoc (
Order of the Red Mantle (
Grand (little) Army of Chaos, now painting! (