Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/05/28 01:36:40
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4)
This is what I would call the "warmup" game before the match between the Draigowing and Tau.
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead, I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost
4x Death Company - Jump Packs, Infernus Pistols
5x Death Company - Jump Packs, Power Fists
10x Death Company - Jump Packs
Death Company BA has got decent mobility and awesome hitting power. However, IMO they've got poor resiliency. 3+ models just isn't resilient, even with FNP....at least not against the deathstars on my list. By the time they reach the knights, they are going to be so few in numbers that it's not going to even put a dent on the paladins. My prediction is that this is just going to be a massacre by the Grey Knights.
BTW, Foreboding is an awesome power in this game. It gives the unit Counter-attack and allow them to Overwatch at full BS. That's like giving the paladins another turn of shooting for free!
Angels deploy far away from the shooting of the grey knights. BTW, the red guys are regular death company. The meltaguns are the models with infernus pistols and the guys in black are the power fists.
Coteaz casts Prescience. They are out of range to shoot so run forwards after moving.
Blood Angels 1
Angels advance and then run to hide behind the LOS-blocking terrain for 1 turn.
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 2
Coteaz would cast both powers (he would do this every turn from now on until they get into combat).
Paladins would actually move back 6" to get away from the infernus pistols.
Blood Angels 2
Time for some Carpe Diem. Angels go on the offense and advance towards the knights.
Now BA is faced with a decision. The angels are about 10" away for an assault. Should they attempt an assault? If they don't assault, then next turn the paladins shoot them up and then shoot them up again when they charge. So that's 2 turns of shooting they would have to endure.
Now if BA charges and makes it, then they only have to endure 1 turn of shooting from Overwatch. However, if they fail, paladins get to Overwatch (at full BS and twin-linked!), then next turn shoot up the angels some more and then 1 more turn of Overwatch when they at last charge!!! So the options are:
1. Charge and make it - endure 1 shooting phase.
2. Don't charge - endure 2 shooting phases.
3. Charge and fail - endure 3 shooting phases!
I decide not to charge. This is because their Overwatch will probably kill the guys in front, thus potentially making the charge impossible or at the very least, a 12" attempt!
Instead, angels shoot at and put 1W on the paladins with bolt pistols.
Score (VP's) - Blood Angels: 28, Grey Knights: 0
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 3
Real marines know no fear. Paladins advance like the brave soldiers they are instead of retreating like cowards.
The number of psycannon hits. Man, that's a lot of misses.
Oh, wait....good thing for Prescience.
Even with FNP, paladins manage to shoot down 7 death company angels.
Finally, the epic combat that you've been waiting for. Angels get into position.
3 infernus pistols hit and paladins fail all 3 saves! Bolt pistols also put 1W on a psycannon as well.
On their way in, paladins kill another 6 death company with Overwatch.
They make it into combat. Grandmaster challenges Lemartes, who accepts. Coteaz casts Hammerhand.
The Grandmaster force weapons Lemartes to death. Halberds (there are still 3, but they get 4 attacks each at S5 with re-roll's to hit from Prescience and re-roll 1's to wound due to Grand Strategy) finishes off all the angels before they can even strike. The banner prevents FNP by the angels.
This game ended just as I suspected - a massacre for the grey knights. The Bad Company is an ok deathstar, but it just doesn't have the resiliency to take on a true deathstar. All that close-combat awesomeness doesn't do any good if the unit cannot make it into combat largely intact. It needs some defensive help. Maybe if you ally in a librarian with Invisibility, they'll have a better chance, but currently as-is, Bad Company is a mid-tier deathstar (or "bubble" deathstar) at best.
And he's already beaten me once with his Tau before. Thus, he would make the perfect test partner to go up against my paladins and daemons.
1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights
I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead, I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.
This isn't going to be an easy fight for the paladins. Forget about trying to assault the Tau. It's almost impossible. No, this is going to be a firefight and Tau is going to have the advantage. No single unit - with probably the exception of the Pinkstar daemons - will out-shoot Tau. Who is going to do more damage - normal shots against 2+ cover or AP2 plasma shots against 5++ Invuln's (with no cover)? I think the knights will be the slight underdog in this matchup.
However, it isn't hopeless, not by a long shot. The knights have a few tricks up their sleeves. 6" Scout move + 1st turn means that they can threaten anything 36" or closer with their shooting. More importantly, Forewarning will give them 4++ Invuln's against Tau plasmas and meltas and Prescience makes their shooting highly accurate. It's going to be a game of attrition and the knights may just have enough to pull it off, though IMO they are going into this game as the underdog.
Keep in mind that this game was played on the same day I played my Pinkstar against Farsight Tau. At that time, we weren't aware that you could not infiltrate Shadowsun with Farsight.
Paladins then scouts forwards 6". And yes, my opponent did know that I gave my paladins Scout via Grand Strategy.
Coteaz casts both of his powers - Prescience and Forewarning. He would do this every turn. Paladins advance.
I am able to shoot down most of his drones without cover due to my essentially 12" move. I kill 11 and put 1W on the Iridium Armor bodyguard.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 184, Tau: 0
Tau 1
Tau moves forwards into plasma double-tap range (at least for most of the guys).
BAM!!! His shooting is devastating this turn....mainly because I fail almost all of my 4++ saves! He takes out 6 paladins and put 1W on a 7th!!!
Bloody fantastic. At least all my psycannons survive, but everyone else is dead.
Suits then jump back behind cover.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 184, Tau: 395
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 2
Grey knights advance. I have a very good round of shooting this turn. I shoot down 1 drone without cover. I then shoot down 3 suits with 2+ cover!!!
More importantly, due to the positioning of his suits, I manage to shoot down the Command & Control suite (for twin-linked shooting), the Iridium Armor suit and the Puretide Engram suit (for stubborn)! I also get rid of his 2 Hit-&-Run guys. Now if only I could reach them in combat....
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 410, Tau: 395
Tau 2
Tau advances.
Without twin-linked shooting, and because I roll much better on my saves this turn, I only lose 1 of my psycannon paladins (the guy already wounded). I can live with that.
They then jump back 12" behind cover.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 410, Tau: 435
Turn 3
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 3
This turn, I shoot down 1 suit and put 1W on another suit (via Look-Out-Sirs).
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 547, Tau: 435
Tau 3
Tau movement.
They fare better in shooting this turn, taking out 1 paladin and putting 1W each on my Grandmaster and on another paladin (via Look-Out-Sirs).
Wow. A 15" jump in the Assault phase!
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 547, Tau: 550
So far, it's turning out to be every bit the shoot-out that I had expected....though I hadn't quite expected to lose 6 paladins in 1 turn!
Turn 4
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 4
I haven't given up yet.
BTW, we appear to be off by 1 turn.
Again, I do 3W, killing off one of his suits (with the Neuroweb) and putting 1W on another.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 690, Tau: 550
Tau 4
Tau goes in for the kill....
....but not quite. They do, however, kill another paladin and bring my Grandmaster down to less than half wounds (thus giving him half VP's).
Of course, they then make their getaway.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 690, Tau: 743
Turn 5
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 5
It is actually Turn 5, but we roll for it anyways to see if the game continues because we think it is Turn 6. Grey knights move.
I shoot down the wounded suit and a drone.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 747, Tau: 743
Tau 5
It is now a 3-on-3. However, all my paladins are down to 1 Wound left and any wound that goes through will insta-kill Coteaz.
My Grandmaster Look-Out-Sirs all his wounds to the other guys, thus killing both of them.
Score (VP's) - Grey Knights: 747, Tau: 883
Turn 6
Spoiler:
Grey Knights 6
Game goes on to what we believe is Turn 7.
Paladins are down big-time, though I have 1 last shot to win this. If I can get the charge with my Grandmaster.....and survive his Overwatch....then there's still a chance I may snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
Shooting by my Grandmaster puts another 1W on a suit.
I then attempt to charge. I need about 9". I survive his Overwatch. I then proceed to roll 8" for my charge.
Ouch...that was a painful game. My paladins started off good by killing most of his buffer models - the gun drones. Then his Turn 1 shooting was just devastating. I barely recovered from that. I failed almost every single 4++ save I had to make! That was some unbelievably poor rolling on my part.
But that wasn't what killed my paladins. The thing that killed my paladins was the large impassable, LOS-blocking terrain right in the center of the board. The terrain prevented my paladins from ever being able to go after his Tau. Instead I had to go around. Here you have a unit that only moves 6" trying to chase a unit that can move 6"+3D6"....not going to happen. He also had superior firepower and 2+ cover saves compared to only 4++ for my paladins. It was a shoot-out that I was destined to lose, though I did try my best to make it a game. If not for his tremendous Turn 1 shooting, I actually felt that my paladins could have won.
After 2 matches, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the Farsight-bomb is a very strong deathstar, maybe one of the bests. Now their final test will be against an army they cannot run away from - one with the mobility to hit them anywhere on the table - the Deldar Seer Council! Coming Thursday. Stay tuned....
This message was edited 17 times. Last update was at 2013/04/30 05:27:06
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 16:15:41
I believe it all depends on who matches up against who. Tau, if they got into fusion Blaster range, would wreck the hammerstar's LR, and then jump away and keep kitting, but Deldar match up good against Tau. I've never seen nor played against a draigowind so i don't really know how that might end up.
To sum it all up, whatever the matchup is might inherently favor one deathstar or another. I might be biased, but IMHO, the Hammernators might be one of the best in here, since they nothing outside of Farsight or the Disco-court can hurt AV14, which might also have ap3 flamers or lots of bolter dakka; not to mention that it might also keep up with the JSJ farsightbomb and the jetseers.
All these deathstars have ways to deal with AV14. If they didn't, they wouldn't be true deathstars.
Tau has meltas. If necessary, Farsight can assault the tank with Armourbane and Tank-hunter.
The Pinkstar has a flying monstrous creature. I believe they can also take Tzeentch powers to deal with heavy armor.
Draigowing has a bunch of S10 hammers and rending psycannons.
The seer council has witchblades, which basically gives them Armourbane. The scary thing is, they are actually fast enough to potentially surround the LR. If they can wreck it while surrounding it, then the guys inside die because they can't disembark.
Belial: Sword of Silence and storm bolter
Dark Angels Librarian: Terminator Armor mastery level 2 Force axe, mace of redemption, storm bolter, infravisor
10x Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS, 2x CML Space Marine Librarian: Terminator Armor, SS, Null zone, GoI
Going for Prescience and your power roll of choice on the DA Libby. using the SM libby w/ GoI for extra movement.
1000 points on the dot.
For 30 points less you could substitute the Terminator squad for a fully kitted out Deathwing Knights squad. Giving them all T5 (save the C:SM libby)
Why not Azrael and Sevrin Loth? Azrael gives the whole unit 4++ and Sevrin is just one bad-ass mofo.
I'm not big on Gate of Infinity (or Veil of Darkness) as a means for mobility, but I suppose it's better than nothing. It's got good resiliency, decent assault but poor shooting. IMO, this is another bubble-deathstar. It's got potential, but due to its lack of shooting and unreliable mode of transportation, it is not reliable enough for me to include in my Deathstars Under Consideration list (so far, I haven't included any of the "bubble-deathstars" there). Overall, I like the Ravenwing Deathstar better.
All units in night scythes. Nothing to get shot at turn 1, pick and choose objectives to place warriors on. Spam Tesla weaponry. It might be more powerful to replace 2 of the night scythes with a doom scythe and boost the warriors as well but either way it's a pretty solid (if completely cheesy) list
That's an army, not a deathstar. And it's not even legal (how did you get 6 night scythes in the list?)!
Dakkamite wrote: Also I reckon chuck Wazdakka on that Nob Biker deathstar. Cut a Warboss and anything else you need to, those S8 shots are too good to pass up.
Interesting. You're basically paying an extra 30-pts for some S8 shooting. Will have to drop some big choppas and kombi-skorchas or perhaps even 1 power klaw for it. Gonna have to think about this one.
DAaddict wrote: For a bonus round, have them face Doom of Malantai in a mycetic spore.. Spirit Leech + Psychic Shriek + a couple of pot shots from the spore... Wonder how many of these deathstars will be gimped by this what... 200 pt counter.
No contest...the Doom would die a horrible death. However, if he is a complement to another tyranid deathstar, then at least he will draw 1 round of fire, thus allowing the tyranid deathstar one more turn of free movement.
djn wrote: Looking forward to this, should be interesting. I did something similar a while back with Paladins and the Harliestar, this is much grander in scope though.
DAaddict wrote: For a bonus round, have them face Doom of Malantai in a mycetic spore.. Spirit Leech + Psychic Shriek + a couple of pot shots from the spore... Wonder how many of these deathstars will be gimped by this what... 200 pt counter.
130 points! But the most wounds he's likely to do is 8 if triple 6s are rolled for Ld with leech, minus cover saves. Same again for shriek just with the psychic test and shot at BS but no covers. Plus you've got to hope he drops in within range. A lot of ifs and buts. Doom is great when he works but isn't the most reliable in my experience, though a great psychological weapon.
Yeah, I remember reading that report. The Harliestar won, right? In any case, Draigowing with Prescience makes a huge difference. I'd drop something to try to fit in Coteaz or a Prescience inquisitor.
6 DCA's + 6 crusaders, with coteaz, an ordo xenos inq with prescience, and a tech marine ( or two, at least one with rad grenades)
DCA's have mauls + axes, so 18 attacks base (24 on charge)
either at I 6 str 6 (can get to str 10 by adding more hammerhand via techmarines) ap 4, all rerolling hits
or I1 str 5 (again able to increase) rerolling hits,
this plus whatever coteaz rolls on the tables (or keep his HH for another +1str)
the unit has 6 ablative 3++ wounds as well, which also contribute 6 more axe attacks at str 4, and a 5++ after they die, coteaz and/or the techmarine can also tank wounds with tehir artificer armour, giving the techmarine a warding staff also gives you a cheap challenge monster in the unit with a 2++ AND the str 8 ap1 servo arm attacks
and your enemy is -1T, so if you buff the mace attacks to str 8, bam, ID all around for t5 guys,
all this costs
180pts for the DCA+crusaders
55pts ordos xenos w prec
100pts coteaz
125pts techmarine w rad + warding staff
so 460 pts,
Automatically Appended Next Post: best part is the cheapest part of the deathstar is the DCA's and crusaders, you can take two units of them, and if someone focuses all their shooting on the first, just move the caracters into the 2nd unit
I consider this more of a mini-deathstar. Get them in a Land Raider Crusader and you're golden. Very good for its price. The only other thing I would add is psykatroke grenades for the techmarine.
I know it's probably stupid/pointless to factor this in, but should Draigowing or the Pinkstar get any extra points for being scoring?
If so, ditto for Nob Bikers.
Also, another potential Ork Deathstar to consider
Ghazghull
Grotsnik
x10 MANz +Cybork for all from Grotsnik.
+Kombi Skorchas for all (or not)
=885 points.
Also are allies allowed at all? I'd love to see the above with an allied Painboss instead of Grotsnik and maybe Old Zogwart for gaks and giggles.
Or maybe, just ditch Grotsnik and take Old Zogwart anyway. I mean every other deathstar seems to be based on some jerkass special character, which we now have like a 50% chance of squiggifying...
I don't believe you can take allies of the same army.
This is a very resilient and extremely dangerous deathstar in assault. My only problem with it is that it needs some type of delivery system. Slow and Purposeful makes them even slower than slow. They'll never catch some of the other deathstars.
As much as I like this deathstar, I've got to say, "Sorry, not viable unless you can somehow get them into some type of fast transport."
What about putting it in a Deffrolla? That's an open-topped transport, so you get to move + disembark + assault. You can move 12"-18" per turn between normal move and flat out, in order to corner your opposing Deathstar. It's AV14 front armor, which a lot of these Deathstars are going to have a hard time with. Oh, and you're thowing S10 hits on each Deathstar once you tank shock it, regardless of whether they DoG or not, and those hits ignore cover saves.
Edit: Oh, and as an additional bonus, you can disembark, tank shock to bunch up the opposing Deathstar, then unload with a volley of combi-scorchas before charging in. Should be extra fun against those Deathstars that are relying on cover to boost their survivability.
You'll have to drop 2 MANz to get them to fit in the battlewagon. That could work. Yeah, I think I will add this to my Deathstars Under Consideration list. I want to include Zogwort, but Grotsnik is probably the better choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 16:20:26
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++, Orb
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
Harbringer of Despair w/ Veil of Darkness
Harbringer of Despair
Harbringer of Despair
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Necron Lord w/ 2+,Shackles, Scythe, 3++
1 Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Shackles, Scythe, 3++
Harbringer of Eternity w/ Chronometron, 3++
This is how a supercourt looks like, two rerolls, Veil for mobility, 3 AP1 templates even when getting charged, all but 3 guys dont have a 3++, you have 5 scythes and 5 shackles...
Is this even legal? I don't have my codex currently, but can you even join a member of a Royal Court to another Royal Court?
No it isnt, just dump the Second Harbringer of eternity and add tesseracts to every bodyguard lord
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/04/27 20:16:03
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/04/27 21:24:17
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4)
You can't deffrolla and fire normally with skorchas? I think its snap shots only if you ram/tank shock.
You also can't assault after a ram or tank shock anymore, despite it being open topped. 6th was harsh on the BW..
I also believe the deffrolla hits do not ignore cover. I don't see anything (other than logic) to support this unless it was faq'd recently and I missed it.
Dakkamite that is a good build with grotsnik, and with zogwort being a warphead hes got 2 shots at getting the teleport spell for mobility right? MANz would have to have cybork or be scoring tho if ya grab ol zoggy (and with bs0 will he be allowed to do shooting psychic abilities at all0
You get out before you Tank Shock, and use the Tank Shock to bunch them up so you can Combi-Scorcha and assault them. In addition, anyone assaulting it eats Combi-Scorcha overwatch, which will put the hurt on several of these Deathstars.
You may be right about the Deffrolla hits; I've always assumed that you can't take cover saves from getting squished to death by a giant steam roller. But then again I keep getting told not to use common sense and logic.
2013/04/27 22:18:14
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4)
Belial with TH/SS ML1 Libbi in termi armour with force axe
Company master in termi armour with mace of redempton and storm shield
5 DWK with perfidous relic
1 LR crusader with DW vehicle
edit ignore
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 22:24:59
2013/04/27 22:48:27
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4)
I won't lie, I am rooting for tau to take this but I really do feel that the match between demons and tau was completely unfair. Demons really needs to go first to win, now I know there is only a 50% chance of going first but still you really need it. Unless demons have a chance to set up their invuls and re-rolls then they are going to lose too many units in the first turn, and that is just what happened this game.
It seems that the demon's match up really came down to three unlucky rolls: the initiative roll and the two invul rolls. I would very much like to see if tau has the stuff to win if demons gets the first turn and its 2++ for the first few turns of the game.
But now that demons is gone I see nothing holding tau back and expect it to crush just about everything else.
2013/04/28 00:03:52
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
I won't lie, I am rooting for tau to take this but I really do feel that the match between demons and tau was completely unfair. Demons really needs to go first to win, now I know there is only a 50% chance of going first but still you really need it. Unless demons have a chance to set up their invuls and re-rolls then they are going to lose too many units in the first turn, and that is just what happened this game.
It seems that the demon's match up really came down to three unlucky rolls: the initiative roll and the two invul rolls. I would very much like to see if tau has the stuff to win if demons gets the first turn and its 2++ for the first few turns of the game.
But now that demons is gone I see nothing holding tau back and expect it to crush just about everything else.
If you have to go first to win, then honestly your death star is extremely weak.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/04/28 00:15:27
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
I won't lie, I am rooting for tau to take this but I really do feel that the match between demons and tau was completely unfair. Demons really needs to go first to win, now I know there is only a 50% chance of going first but still you really need it. Unless demons have a chance to set up their invuls and re-rolls then they are going to lose too many units in the first turn, and that is just what happened this game.
It seems that the demon's match up really came down to three unlucky rolls: the initiative roll and the two invul rolls. I would very much like to see if tau has the stuff to win if demons gets the first turn and its 2++ for the first few turns of the game.
But now that demons is gone I see nothing holding tau back and expect it to crush just about everything else.
Yeah, that game wasn't very satisfactory. A mistake on my part + some dice going against me kind of skewered the results. I think I will have a rematch between the two. Also, I didn't really mention it, but the Tau were rolling well on their saves. It probably took my daemons about 8-9 wounds just to get through one of those 2+ cover saves. I believe he even had a streak of about 11 made 2+ saves. Most of the daemon kills were on drones who had their cover removed via Perfect Timing.
He is a Forgeworld character from one of their Imperial Armour books who is broken as heck. I think he is a level 4 psyker who knows all the spells from 3-4 different disciples. Moreover, he can turn his 2+ armour into a 2++ invuln save! I really don't know what the heck FW was thinking when they designed this character.
If you have to go first to win, then honestly your death star is extremely weak.
I don't think the Pinkstar has to go first to win, but as with all psychic-heavy armies, going first does help. The problem was not going first, a mistake in deployment and some bad luck by daemons which did them in.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/28 00:17:23
If someone pointed this out already, apologies. However, this list isn't valid. Having run the Cheese Council since 4th dropped, I'm pretty familiar with the setup and thought your assessment of their shooting was odd. Then I noticed you have 4 warlocks with no powers, and that's a no no. Codex entry explicitly states they MUST take a power. It doesn't change the list much, but you do need to drop a lock and grab powers for the other 3. It's an easy oversight if you aren't familiar with the codex, and Army builder doesn't flag it as an issue.
Also, I'm going to take a guess here and say you are using Guide for re rolls in combat (based on army review)? Guide is shooting only, so pretty useless for these guys. May as well switch it for doom.
For convenience sake here is the list updated with the suggestions I made. 2 more destructors and another enhance, with guide switched for doom on the 2 power seer. Also, traded Eldritch storm for fortune on the four power seer assuming you are going to trade these out for book powers. It's 10 points cheaper and allows you to pick up warding on both seers, because why not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
Put the second Enhance in their for redundancy sake, but if you prefer switch it out for destructor and the total comes down to 995.
Any who, looking forward to the results. It will be interesting one way or another. Hopefully that helped a bit. Again, if it's already been mentioned apologies. I looked and didn't see anything regarding my favorite deathstar 7 years running, so had to make sure my boys were represented at their best.
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire
2013/04/28 03:17:44
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
@Jy2: Will there be a separate bracket for certain 'deathstars under consideration'? The matchups that would ensue would make for very interesting games, and may change people's perception of certain deathstars. That, and i want to see some *cue boombox*..."Hammer Time!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/28 03:17:57
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
2013/04/28 05:15:11
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
If someone pointed this out already, apologies. However, this list isn't valid. Having run the Cheese Council since 4th dropped, I'm pretty familiar with the setup and thought your assessment of their shooting was odd. Then I noticed you have 4 warlocks with no powers, and that's a no no. Codex entry explicitly states they MUST take a power. It doesn't change the list much, but you do need to drop a lock and grab powers for the other 3. It's an easy oversight if you aren't familiar with the codex, and Army builder doesn't flag it as an issue.
Also, I'm going to take a guess here and say you are using Guide for re rolls in combat (based on army review)? Guide is shooting only, so pretty useless for these guys. May as well switch it for doom.
For convenience sake here is the list updated with the suggestions I made. 2 more destructors and another enhance, with guide switched for doom on the 2 power seer. Also, traded Eldritch storm for fortune on the four power seer assuming you are going to trade these out for book powers. It's 10 points cheaper and allows you to pick up warding on both seers, because why not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
Put the second Enhance in their for redundancy sake, but if you prefer switch it out for destructor and the total comes down to 995.
Any who, looking forward to the results. It will be interesting one way or another. Hopefully that helped a bit. Again, if it's already been mentioned apologies. I looked and didn't see anything regarding my favorite deathstar 7 years running, so had to make sure my boys were represented at their best.
Ah, thanks for pointing it out. I was not aware of that as I am not an eldar player. Looks like my friend who I've been playing against is running them wrong. I will point it out to him.
I will modify the list to make it legal. Thanks!
ace101 wrote: @Jy2: Will there be a separate bracket for certain 'deathstars under consideration'? The matchups that would ensue would make for very interesting games, and may change people's perception of certain deathstars. That, and i want to see some *cue boombox*..."Hammer Time!"
Just for you, I well set up a special, guest Deathstar "Deathmatch". You can find your list on p.2 under the Deathstars under Consideration list. Coming soon....
Of those I vote for option 2. 4x big choppas 1 boss pole and 1x kombi skorhca but I would edit it as thus
4x big choppa, 1 boss pole, 1 grot orderly
(for that FNP re roll when painboy or a boss going to eat dust).. I don't think extra skorcha will make up more points than that re-roll might save. I also think wazdakka is a liability with no cybork body. Having 2 warbosses means 1 can leave the unit and charge into paladins and absorb overwatch, while the other and the bikers just coast on in.
"The List" I originally posted edited and revised:
Sevrin Loth can take all six powers from Biomancy, Telekinesis or telepathy. He can also expend one point of warp charge to convert his 2+ into a 2++. Not necessarily broken but definitely quite good. He is a Red Scorpion.
Dozer Blades wrote: Sevrin Loth can take all six powers from Biomancy, Telekinesis or telepathy. He can also expend one point of warp charge to convert his 2+ into a 2++. Not necessarily broken but definitely quite good. He is a Red Scorpion.
Who else has that type of flexibility in terms of psychic powers? He knows all the powers from each of those disciplines so there's no chance of failure in getting what he wants. Joins the Ravenwing deathstar and that's a guaranteed Invisibility. Join any deathstar and he can cast Iron Arm on himself and Endurance on the unit. With every other psyker, there is a risk of not getting the power that you want. With Sevrin, there is no such risk. He is a huge force multiplier that is even scarier than Fateweaver or Eldrad.
Moreover, his 2++ can come in quite handy. Put him in the front and he will tank any and all AP1/2 shots while passing small-arms fire to the rest of the unit. Concerned about him getting insta-killed? Not with Iron Arm on. Finally, he can still cast most of the Space Marine powers, including Null Zone.
This guy is the best psyker in the universe! I didn't know the Red Scorpions had a better psyker than Tigurius or even the Emperor himself!
Veskrashen wrote: You get out before you Tank Shock, and use the Tank Shock to bunch them up so you can Combi-Scorcha and assault them. In addition, anyone assaulting it eats Combi-Scorcha overwatch, which will put the hurt on several of these Deathstars.
You may be right about the Deffrolla hits; I've always assumed that you can't take cover saves from getting squished to death by a giant steam roller. But then again I keep getting told not to use common sense and logic.
I may be mistaken but I think you are disallowed from tank shocking if you disembark passengers at all that turn.
It may just be ramming. im pretty sure ya can't disembark and then ram anymore. Defrollas got hit hard with 6th. Dakkamite has a good list to make them work but brings over a dozen using ia8 vehicles or something.
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
Veskrashen wrote: You get out before you Tank Shock, and use the Tank Shock to bunch them up so you can Combi-Scorcha and assault them. In addition, anyone assaulting it eats Combi-Scorcha overwatch, which will put the hurt on several of these Deathstars.
You may be right about the Deffrolla hits; I've always assumed that you can't take cover saves from getting squished to death by a giant steam roller. But then again I keep getting told not to use common sense and logic.
I may be mistaken but I think you are disallowed from tank shocking if you disembark passengers at all that turn.
It may just be ramming. im pretty sure ya can't disembark and then ram anymore. Defrollas got hit hard with 6th. Dakkamite has a good list to make them work but brings over a dozen using ia8 vehicles or something.
You are correct. Now in 6th, you can't ram or even tank-shock on the turn you disembark passengers.
You could run 2 CSMDP's and an allied Chaos Daemon Greater Daemon for a true Chaoszilla deathstar list. Better yet, I'd run 2 Greater Daemons and ally in the Black Mace DP instead. Keep in mind that the deathstar builds do not have to be a complete army. The deathstar unit(s) you take within just needs to be a legal single-FOC combo.
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration, Exalted Gift (Portaglyph)
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Loci of Conjuration
Herald - Tzeentch, Lvl 3
20x Pink Horrors
vs
1000 Spartan Hamminators Space Marines
Sevrin Loth
Vulkan
8x TH/SS Terminators
Land Raider Spartan
Bonus battle report on p.4 coming up tomorrow, followed by Game #2 - Farsight Tau vs Draigowing.
Stay tuned.....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/28 07:45:38
Loving this thread jy2, you are the master of suspense as always, can't wait to see more games up.
I was trying to think of armies that haven't had a star suggested yet and was wondering (as I'm not really a 40k player) has any form of IG star been considered? I was thinking a full 6 man platoon in one combined squad, full heavy and special weapon options, pws on the sergeants, Yarrick, Marbo(?) and commissars. I doubt it would be very competitive but it sure would be a laugh.
2013/04/28 13:32:55
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
I know I'm entering this topic a little late but how did you infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun ... this cannort be done. You could DS in turn two beside the deathstar but he cannot infiltrate with the group regardless of who is the warlord.
When we play the deathstar is it common to see Shadowsun infiltrating and the Farsight DSing with a riptide turn two with AGL/Comm help. Farsight can then either join the deathstar or stay put with the riptide.
2013/04/28 13:44:10
Subject: Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4)
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/28 13:46:01
2013/04/28 14:42:22
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
That was a horrific slaughter. I thought the Pink-Star was the only one that had a chance in this vacuum match up. Looks like Tau are going to run away with it.
2013/04/28 15:21:16
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
If someone pointed this out already, apologies. However, this list isn't valid. Having run the Cheese Council since 4th dropped, I'm pretty familiar with the setup and thought your assessment of their shooting was odd. Then I noticed you have 4 warlocks with no powers, and that's a no no. Codex entry explicitly states they MUST take a power. It doesn't change the list much, but you do need to drop a lock and grab powers for the other 3. It's an easy oversight if you aren't familiar with the codex, and Army builder doesn't flag it as an issue.
Also, I'm going to take a guess here and say you are using Guide for re rolls in combat (based on army review)? Guide is shooting only, so pretty useless for these guys. May as well switch it for doom.
For convenience sake here is the list updated with the suggestions I made. 2 more destructors and another enhance, with guide switched for doom on the 2 power seer. Also, traded Eldritch storm for fortune on the four power seer assuming you are going to trade these out for book powers. It's 10 points cheaper and allows you to pick up warding on both seers, because why not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
Put the second Enhance in their for redundancy sake, but if you prefer switch it out for destructor and the total comes down to 995.
Any who, looking forward to the results. It will be interesting one way or another. Hopefully that helped a bit. Again, if it's already been mentioned apologies. I looked and didn't see anything regarding my favorite deathstar 7 years running, so had to make sure my boys were represented at their best.
Ah, thanks for pointing it out. I was not aware of that as I am not an eldar player. Looks like my friend who I've been playing against is running them wrong. I will point it out to him.
I will modify the list to make it legal. Thanks!
I'm pretty sure in the initial printing it said MUST, and then was changed to MAY. It might have been the other way around but I don't think that is the case. I'm about to go into a games store so I will go and look it up for you with a brand new codex.
'Anyone can win, but it takes a good man to lose.'
-Louis Guzman
2013/04/28 15:33:17
Subject: Re:Battle of the Deathstars (Army Analysis on p.4, Game #1 up on p.4)
Uzi Toting Monkeys wrote: Loving this thread jy2, you are the master of suspense as always, can't wait to see more games up.
I was trying to think of armies that haven't had a star suggested yet and was wondering (as I'm not really a 40k player) has any form of IG star been considered? I was thinking a full 6 man platoon in one combined squad, full heavy and special weapon options, pws on the sergeants, Yarrick, Marbo(?) and commissars. I doubt it would be very competitive but it sure would be a laugh.
Here is a possible IG deathstar. It includes basically the entire platoon. What you want is an ATSKNF Divination ally and for that, I choose Njal as an ally. Either him or Sevrin Loth for Endurance and or Invisibility (though Sevrin is Fearless, which isn't as good as ATSKNF). In any case, this would probably be what I would run:
Njal - Terminator Armor 270
Primaris Psyker 70
Platoon Command Squad 30
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant 80
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant
Infantry Squad - Meltagun, Autocannon, Power Axe Sergeant
Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Autocannons 75
Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Autocannons 75
Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Autocannons 75
995
I prefer Njal for his psychic defense, ATSKNF and Prescience. Forewarning is a bonus, giving 4++ invuln's to your guardsmen. Misfortune will be a pain for the enemy. This unit has got resiliency through numbers. It's got decent mid-range shooting with Prescience and orders and not-too-bad (though not great) assault. It doesn't have much mobility. Then again, it is more of a shooty deathstar rather than an assault one. If you swap out Njal for Sevrin, you have enough points to get Marbo or something similar. Sevrin is a much better psyker, though he doesn't have the psychic defense and does not have access to Divination powers. Moreover, he makes the blob squad Fearless, which isn't bad. However, I much prefer ATSKNF so that at least the blob squad has a chance to get out of a combat that it doesn't like.
felixcat wrote: I know I'm entering this topic a little late but how did you infiltrate Farsight with Shadowsun ... this cannort be done. You could DS in turn two beside the deathstar but he cannot infiltrate with the group regardless of who is the warlord.
When we play the deathstar is it common to see Shadowsun infiltrating and the Farsight DSing with a riptide turn two with AGL/Comm help. Farsight can then either join the deathstar or stay put with the riptide.
Really? And why is that? I don't have my rulebook with me now so can't look it up. Thanks.
Tyranid Prime
-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration, LW/BS, Devourer
Only comes in at 725 points, so point for point not as effective but I think it could handle quite a bit considering regen on 2 of the models and you can Los! lots of shots.
Any of the typical biomancy powers would be great for this deathstar, although Endurance being the best for the FnP, Iron arm probably has less utility since the average toughness would still be 6 even if HT gets +3 S/T. As I think of it, the ideal powers would probably be Endurance and Enfeeble. That way you could deal effectively with those pesky super tough units like bikers.
The dual TL-Devs are nastiness pretty much hitting and wounding every shot and if enfeebled, most of those Meq deathstars melt away. Also gives this deathstar a 24" threat range.
Just want to make sure you didn't miss this one for the "Deathstars for consideration"! Add Doom of Malan'Tai and a brood of Hive guard for point difference if you so choose!
As much as I want them to be (because tyranids are one of my favorite armies), but sorry, but none of the tyranid "ground" deathstars are viable all for the same reason - their lack of mobility. Sure, they can do a lot of damage when they get into combat, but the problem is, most of them will be dead by the time they do get into combat (or at least reduced to a not-very-effective unit by the time they reach combat). And for a deathstar, just 12 TL-S6 shots isn't very shooty at all.
The truth is that none of the walking tyranid deathstars can compete against a true deathstar army. They have neither the mobility nor the shooting to make up for it.
gpfunk wrote: That was a horrific slaughter. I thought the Pink-Star was the only one that had a chance in this vacuum match up. Looks like Tau are going to run away with it.
I still think the Pinkstar has a good chance against Tau, though they lost their "official" game already. Any rematch between them won't be on record, at least not for tournament purposes.
If someone pointed this out already, apologies. However, this list isn't valid. Having run the Cheese Council since 4th dropped, I'm pretty familiar with the setup and thought your assessment of their shooting was odd. Then I noticed you have 4 warlocks with no powers, and that's a no no. Codex entry explicitly states they MUST take a power. It doesn't change the list much, but you do need to drop a lock and grab powers for the other 3. It's an easy oversight if you aren't familiar with the codex, and Army builder doesn't flag it as an issue.
Also, I'm going to take a guess here and say you are using Guide for re rolls in combat (based on army review)? Guide is shooting only, so pretty useless for these guys. May as well switch it for doom.
For convenience sake here is the list updated with the suggestions I made. 2 more destructors and another enhance, with guide switched for doom on the 2 power seer. Also, traded Eldritch storm for fortune on the four power seer assuming you are going to trade these out for book powers. It's 10 points cheaper and allows you to pick up warding on both seers, because why not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Baron Sathonyx
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Guide, Mind War
Farseer - Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
Put the second Enhance in their for redundancy sake, but if you prefer switch it out for destructor and the total comes down to 995.
Any who, looking forward to the results. It will be interesting one way or another. Hopefully that helped a bit. Again, if it's already been mentioned apologies. I looked and didn't see anything regarding my favorite deathstar 7 years running, so had to make sure my boys were represented at their best.
Ah, thanks for pointing it out. I was not aware of that as I am not an eldar player. Looks like my friend who I've been playing against is running them wrong. I will point it out to him.
I will modify the list to make it legal. Thanks!
I'm pretty sure in the initial printing it said MUST, and then was changed to MAY. It might have been the other way around but I don't think that is the case. I'm about to go into a games store so I will go and look it up for you with a brand new codex.
This may be the case, but I've never heard of it changing/FAQ'd. However 1) as I noted I've been running them since 4th (haven't played sixth), and my book is definitely the first print. 2) Id rather have one less body and 2-3 more destructors. That's a hold over from not having hit and run though, where I wanted to do as much dmg as possible prior to charging so as not to get tar pitted. Still though, even with hit and run 5 heavy flamers to the face is always fun. Especially Since you can't DTW destructors.
Alternately if you just want the bodies, jy's list had a few seer power choices he could change out (the ones I noted) to get the emboldens and not change the intent of the army.
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire
At least all my psycannons survive, but everyone else is dead.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
